southsideirish Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Yawn. Speaking of which.... Don't look now, but Cubs came within a fluke Diaz outing (last week against Zambrano) from taking 5 out of 6 from the Sox just as my "stupid" prediction stated. yawn, you said we would get killed. In fact we were in every single game and were very close to splitting with that awesome pitching staff of yours cubbie fan. We were also without Maggs. Couple that with being in a National League park and having to lose another big hitter betwee Frank and Konerko hurts this team a lot more than it did in our park. Whatever makes you happy though cubbie fan man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Just chill out...Some people would actually like to discuss the topic at hand here without talking about who is rooting for who and all of the other side items that are being thrown around. Exactly. You obviously mis understood what me and SoxAce meant, because to sit there and accuse us of wanting a Mariner player to be better than a Sox player was wayyyy off... Borchard should have already been in the majors by know and NO ONE can deny he has been a bust so far... So what am I supposed to be excited about? Reed hadnt been dissapointing at all for us... He hits for average, he gets on base, he steals bases.. Hes just a regular guy, and thats why I liked him.. I am not hoping Reed is better than Borchard, I hope im wrong, but until Borchard shows me something to make me believe he is going to be a successful player, than I am sticking with what I said... Reed>Borchard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 Alright I have seen enough. Goodnight kids. (CLOSES THREAD.) :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 6, 2004 Author Share Posted July 6, 2004 Hopefully everyone is sober now and we can resume healthy discussion. Thank you to everyone who pm'ed me regarding this topic and let's keep things centered on REED/BORCHARD and not who likes who. Thanks. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Once again....which insider-scout will be first to satisfy my inquiry? Who said Borchard has a super-star talent? -His batspeed and hand-eye coordination are nothing special. -Neither his pitch recognition, nor his SZ management are of "superstar" quality. -He lacks nerves of steel of Olerud, Edgar, Boggs, etc. -He has above average straight-line speed, but is only an average base-runner. -His range is nothing special and his arm is good but overrated. -At just 25yo, already can't play a week without a nagging injury paying him a visit. Yes, he is very strong. But so are a lot of people working in any given construction site. What's the EDGE, what's that SOMETHING that will allow him to succeed where 90+ % of ML OF fail and become that star everyone wants him to be? Tell me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Once again....which insider-scout will be first to satisfy my inquiry? You're not going to get an answer because you've basically hit the nail on the head. Does that work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Exactly. You obviously mis understood what me and SoxAce meant, because to sit there and accuse us of wanting a Mariner player to be better than a Sox player was wayyyy off... Borchard should have already been in the majors by know and NO ONE can deny he has been a bust so far... So what am I supposed to be excited about? Reed hadnt been dissapointing at all for us... He hits for average, he gets on base, he steals bases.. Hes just a regular guy, and thats why I liked him.. I am not hoping Reed is better than Borchard, I hope im wrong, but until Borchard shows me something to make me believe he is going to be a successful player, than I am sticking with what I said... Reed>Borchard You say "exactly" and right back you go. Move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Once again....which insider-scout will be first to satisfy my inquiry? As I said before, when this thread starting getting out of hand, unless those comments came from some scouting report, they are just your idle thoughts and we can dismiss them rather easily. Obviously many people felt that he had some skills because he was a 1st round pick and just about every pundit had him ranked as a star. The problem is that none of you comments are quantifiable, so it carries about as much weight as us arguing over how good Reed's arm and range were. To claim he doesn't have the edge(biggest bulls*** phrase thrown around) or that his arm is overrated or that his batspeed and hand eye coordination are nothing special doesn't really back up the argument that much unless they are expert opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
T R U Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 You say "exactly" and right back you go. Move on. SSI Let it go man, Aboz just re-opened this and even SAID no more of that crap and the FIRST THING YOU POST is in retaliation to something last night... get over it man and quit ruining this post for other people... let it go Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SpringfieldFan Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 KW's thinking seems pretty clear to me. He doesn't want to play the quarter slots because he is feeling pretty good about his keno numbers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 If Reed is such a spectacular prospect when compared to Borchard, who many here consider a bust, why would Seattle even bother asking about him? And about Billy Beane, how can he be such a brilliant GM when he traded away the future HOF catcher Miguel Olivo for a middle reliever??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 If Reed is such a spectacular prospect when compared to Borchard, who many here consider a bust, why would Seattle even bother asking about him? And about Billy Beane, how can he be such a brilliant GM when he traded away the future HOF catcher Miguel Olivo for a middle reliever??? Reed is not a spectacular prospect - Pujols and Cabrera, now there are spectacular prospects. But when his wrists were healthy back in '03, he could have come into the bigs and posted a 360 OBP (800 OPS) from the 2-spot with his eyes closed - at 22 years of age! I truly believe that. Yes, he was THAT polished a hitter, his swing had very few holes; unlike most Sox hitters, Reed had no problem going the other way or shortening up with 2 strikes. Good eye, plate discipline, hand-eye coordination. Confidence. Those attributes are worth their weight in gold when making a transition to the bigs. I mean, look at the wonders such modest approach briefly did for Willie Harris (.400 OBP from April 10th through mid-June) - and last year, Jeremy Reed had more gap-power and a better batting eye than Willie ever had. He is also better defensively (CF) and on the pads than Joe Borchard, and seems to be stronger mentally - although you can never really predict how a player acclimates psychologically to the Bigs. At the end, both Reed and JoBo could very well be big busts. IMO, Sox needed a Reed-type player more than a Borchard-type player. Giving up on Olivo upset me way more, I realized that either Reed or Borchard HAD to be included in the deal no matter what. I just think Olivo is gonna suprise a ton of people in the next 5-7 years. But I digress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmags Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 well, i hope both do well, i don't like blasting one and favoring the other when a week ago i was rooting for both...when i heard reed was traded i was po'ed, but, i'm willing to put my faith in borchard and his work ethic, and he will be a star. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Very few players come up and hit major league pitching right away. Your average rookie of the year will hit about .270, so that means that everyone else that comes up does worse. It's hard to say if Reed would have or not, but he didn't. They traded him at the height of his value, and I have no problem with that. He wasn't going to make any kind of impact on the team this year, and he MIGHT HAVE next year, but that's still an if statement. He just seems like an average player, not someone we should cry in our beers over trading. This is my final comment. To paraphrase a Major League line: "Who gives a s***, he's gone!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 Once again....which insider-scout will be first to satisfy my inquiry? "No Reply" This happened once before When I came to your door.... No Reply They said it wasn't you But I saw you peep through.... Your window I saw the lie, I saw the lie I know that you saw me As I looked up to see.... Your face I tried to telephone They said you were not home.... That's a lie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalapse Posted July 6, 2004 Share Posted July 6, 2004 How the f*** did this simple little thread get all the way up to 15 pages? Borchard= Reed= Can't we all just get along? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 7, 2004 Author Share Posted July 7, 2004 "No Reply" This happened once before When I came to your door.... No Reply They said it wasn't you But I saw you peep through.... Your window I saw the lie, I saw the lie I know that you saw me As I looked up to see.... Your face I tried to telephone They said you were not home.... That's a lie Heh, great Beatle tune there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Reed is not a spectacular prospect - Pujols and Cabrera, now there are spectacular prospects. But when his wrists were healthy back in '03, he could have come into the bigs and posted a 360 OBP (800 OPS) from the 2-spot with his eyes closed - at 22 years of age! I truly believe that. Yes, he was THAT polished a hitter, his swing had very few holes; unlike most Sox hitters, Reed had no problem going the other way or shortening up with 2 strikes. Good eye, plate discipline, hand-eye coordination. Confidence. Those attributes are worth their weight in gold when making a transition to the bigs. I mean, look at the wonders such modest approach briefly did for Willie Harris (.400 OBP from April 10th through mid-June) - and last year, Jeremy Reed had more gap-power and a better batting eye than Willie ever had. He is also better defensively (CF) and on the pads than Joe Borchard, and seems to be stronger mentally - although you can never really predict how a player acclimates psychologically to the Bigs. At the end, both Reed and JoBo could very well be big busts. IMO, Sox needed a Reed-type player more than a Borchard-type player. Giving up on Olivo upset me way more, I realized that either Reed or Borchard HAD to be included in the deal no matter what. I just think Olivo is gonna suprise a ton of people in the next 5-7 years. But I digress. How can you possibly come to these conclusions without ever seeing him play with yuor own eyes in 2003? Just wondering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 SSI Let it go man, Aboz just re-opened this and even SAID no more of that crap and the FIRST THING YOU POST is in retaliation to something last night... get over it man and quit ruining this post for other people... let it go imitation is the greatest form of flattery. For that I thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 How can you possibly come to these conclusions without ever seeing him play with your own eyes in 2003? You know what happens when you make a huge assumption (like that twit who accused me of not going to the games a while back), which couldn't be more incorrect, and then build an arguement around it? Judging from your (and others') content-less response to my earlier inquiry, I can only presume that with the exception of Rex, NONE of you know what the f*** you're talking about when it comes to Borchard, much less Reed. But hey, why don't you tell us how Reed has "no arm". That one had me rolling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 You know what happens when you make a huge assumption (like that twit who accused me of not going to the games a while back), which couldn't be more incorrect, and then build an arguement around it? Judging from your (and others') content-less response to my earlier inquiry, I can only presume that with the exception of Rex, NONE of you know what the f*** you're talking about when it comes to Borchard, much less Reed. But hey, why don't you tell us how Reed has "no arm". That one had me rolling. I know this much. The Seatlle organization preferred Borchard. The Sox organization preferred Borchard. That speaks volumns. Even if I did have had the opportunity to see Reed in person, I'd trust the opinions of the professionals in two organizations before I'd trust my amatuer opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I know this much. The Seatlle organization preferred Borchard. The Sox organization preferred Borchard. That speaks volumns. Even if I did have had the opportunity to see Reed in person, I'd trust the opinions of the professionals in two organizations before I'd trust my amatuer opinion. Whoa, how do you know that Seattle didn't really prefer Reed? Nobody knows for sure. They'll never tell you, and even if they did, what makes you so sure they are CORRECT in their evaluation? As I've shown in that "Draft vs. Talent" thread, when it comes to projecting and predicting, it's often a total crapshoot, with many future quality major leaguers misjudged by MANY teams along the way.......unless of course we're talking about such rare exceptions as Prior, Pujols, Wood, A-Rod - who just took the majors by storm - and suffice to say neither Borchard nor Reed possess THAT kind of talent IMO. Secondly, Reed's wrist problem has a higher chance of hurting his long-term performance than Borchard's quad. Perhaps that lowered Reed's "value" in the eyes of our organization. Maybe, maybe not. Amateur, professional.....when we're talking about a Gio Gonzalez or Micah Shurnstein, I defer to the "pros" since players that young and that raw could go either way, and you have to watch and re-evaluate them on a regular basis lest you fall out of touch with their progress - or in the overwhelming majority of cases, lack thereof.........However, when it comes to Borchard and Reed, the two players who are supposed to be major-league ready or just about, I feel I know enough about baseball to reasonably assess their strenghts and weaknesseses. (And needless to say, the last couple of years, Borchard resembled Branyon more than he did Thome. ) It's not an exact science (not all the time anyway) of course, so that's why I almost always preface my opinion with "there is a good chance neither of the players can put the tools together and succeed against superior ML talent" and "even if they have the physical ability to thrive in the bigs, who knows how they'll be able to make the transition psychologically", etc. I mean come on, that much should go without saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Whoa, how do you know that Seattle didn't really prefer Reed? Nobody knows for sure. I'll admit, I don't have a listening device planted in Bavasi's office. However, I was going by the title and 1st post of this thread. That was the basis for this entire discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BrandoFan Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I'll admit, I don't have a listening device planted in Bavasi's office. However, I was going by the title and 1st post of this thread. That was the basis for this entire discussion. Would it matter if the entire discussion is based on a (potentially) faulty premise, then? Hell, you could make a case for Mike Morse being the next Nomar Hamm based on dubious reports that Seattle was the highest on him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSF Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I thought this thread was locked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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