The White Sox and Seattle not done dealing?

[1969Vette]

Aurilia - 4hrs, .238BA, .339SLG, .643OPS... Edgar and Olerud are better than this and you don't get rid of Edgar if you are the Ms. Just like Jeter belongs in NY, Nomar used to belong in Boston, and Griffey belongs in Seattle, Edgar belongs in Seatlle.

 

I was talking about free agency, Aurilia signed a 1 year deal and will not be back, we don't want him. Orlando last time I checked was playing worse, we definately do not want worse when looking at a replacement for Aurilia.

 

Orlando Cabrera - 4hrs, .236BA, .322SLG, .616OPS = BAD

 

Jolbert is better right now, Seattle is his 3rd team, thats not really moved around the league...

[1969Vette]

I also want to say, you guys are some top notch fans. The discussion has all been baseball and I've been left very impressed with the fans on your site, the fans that have come here, and just the overall great baseball talk that has gone on

 

Thankyou, I see the same in you.

 

In my last post I wasn't trying to flame at all, just to point out the real stats as comparison. Like I said, I like Jolbert, but Ive heard he wants to play with his brother, and as you can see by the stats, we dont want his brother offensively, especially after the season we're having, but if we could trade Boone I would love to see Jolbert at 2B, but not with Orlando at SS.

[Chisoxfn]

Thankyou, I see the same in you.

 

In my last post I wasn't trying to flame at all, just to point out the real stats as comparison. Like I said, I like Jolbert, but Ive heard he wants to play with his brother, and as you can see by the stats, we dont want his brother offensively, especially after the season we're having, but if we could trade Boone I would love to see Jolbert at 2B, but not with Orlando at SS.

Well if you get Orlando at a discounted rate they are getting a great player because other then this year he's still very talented. Then again, maybe he is done cause he's kind of been an enigma of some sort.

[Dick Allen]

The only other person I can see going is Cotts, but I really really hope he doesn't go anywhere. I really like Cotts long term potential.  I think he'll slide into the rotation next year and pitch very effectively and I could see him being an all star a few times too.

You may be right, but Cotts has been horrible since he made that spot start. I think he needs to go back to Charlotte for a little while.

[Dick Allen]

Oh my God, who are you and what are you doing here?

 

Are you kiddin' me?

 

I'm serious!

 

What's the matter with you?

 

Please.

 

You're right. Carl Pohlad is one of the richest people in America. He is a billionaire a couple times over.

[Rowand44]

You may be right, but Cotts has been horrible since he made that spot start. I think he needs to go back to Charlotte for a little while.

I agree with that. I'd love to get eddie however I really don't want to get rid of cotts. If you still consider him a prospect he's probably the last prospect I would get rid of. Neal is going to be one hell of a starter in this league, book it.

[BrandoFan]

Brown is hurt, and isn't doing that great. His ERA is about 4.15, which is higher than both Buehrle and Garcia, and Mussina is doing even worse. In case you haven't noticed, Pedro has been very inconsistent and has no stamina. Schilling is pitching great, but he has an ankle problem that may slow him down or put him on the DL later. The rest of their rotation is god awful. The only team that We should really worry about rotationwise is the A's. Hudson and Mulder are something, and their other starters aren't all bad either. But their lineup is weak and their pen isn't much better. Assuming Maggs comes back 100% to help the offense(trading him would be pretty dumb at this point), they should be fine with Garcia and Buehrle one and two, with Loaiza and Garland splitting the other starts, especially if you can shift Marte and Shingo to the 7th and 8th, which would help greatly in shortening a game. I wouldn't sell off the future for anyone short of a dominant starter, and there aren't a whole lot out there and they will cost a ton. By the way, Ortiz does not qualify as a dominant starter.

Come playoff time, both Brown and Pedro will still be healthy and rested. Don't sell them short - they're still capable of shutting a line-up like ours down COLD - we're known to be pretty damn weak against tough RHP, esp on the road and under playoff pressure. Especially vulnerable.

 

And losing Anderson, Garland, Rauch and another prospect is NOT mortgaging the future - they're not THAT good.

 

Besides.....after 86 years, the future is NOW. What the team does this season and in 2005-2006 will largely determine whether or not ANYONE STILL GIVES A s*** ABOUT THIS SORRY FRANCHISE OR NOT.

 

Sox need Randy Johnson more than NY, Boston, LA, SF need him. They can live with not making the playoffs, let alone with not going deep in the playoffs because their revenues (and payroll) will still be as high as ever in 2005 and beyond.

[Rowand44]

Come playoff time, both Brown and Pedro will still be healthy and rested.      Don't sell them short - they're still capable of shutting a line-up like ours down COLD - we're known to be pretty damn weak against tough RHP, esp on the road and under playoff pressure.

 

And losing Anderson, Garland, Rauch and another prospect is NOT mortgaging the future - they're not THAT good.   

 

Besides.....after 86 years, the future is NOW. What the team does this season and in 2005-2006 will largely determine whether or not ANYONE STILL GIVES A s*** ABOUT THIS SORRY FRANCHISE OR NOT. 

 

Sox need Randy Johnson more than NY, Boston, LA, SF need him. They can live with not making the playoffs, let alone with not going deep in the playoffs because their revenues (and payroll) will still be as high as ever in 2005 and beyond.

Brando you got to get over RJ. We'd all love to get Randy but it just isn't going to happen. I also disagree with saying that Anderson and Garland aren't any good. Garland is definitely inconsistant but he's still a solid pitcher that will still get better. I don't understand how you say Anderson isn't good, the guy is tearing birmingham up now, what do you base Anderson not being good on, that comment just confuses me.

[YASNY]

Great input from the Mariners fans. Thanks guys. Yes, we'll have to give up at least one pretty good prospect to get Guardado. I wouldn't think it would take Crede to get him. We don't have a suitable replacement even close to big leagues. ARow might be part of the deal, along with a minor league pitcher.

[BrandoFan]

Brando you got to get over RJ.  We'd all love to get Randy but it just isn't going to happen.  I also disagree with saying that Anderson and Garland aren't any good.  Garland is definitely inconsistant but he's still a solid pitcher that will still get better.  I don't understand how you say Anderson isn't good, the guy is tearing birmingham up now, what do you base Anderson not being good on, that comment just confuses me.

1. I will not be getting over RJ anytime soon. I am not as cynical and jaded as most of you low-expectation mongers are. Randy Johnson is not a boogie-man to me - he'll be tough to get, sure, but not impossible. This ain't 2002 anymore.

 

2. Garland is mediocre, but his "potential" and a low price-tag might intrigue Arizona. Might. He is no good to us anyway - he won't get anywhere near ALDS and should Sox make it to ALCS or WS, he'll pitch in one game - that is IF Shoenweiss doesn't out-pitch him.

 

3. Anderson is NOT that good, IMO he'll never be an All-Star. I'd give him up for 2 years of RJ in a heartbeat. What's the earliest he could contribute as an above average ML starter anyway? 2006? 2007? Please, we're talking about here and now, about GOING FOR IT and stuff.

[ChiSox_Sonix]

But what if, as has been said before on this board, he cheats for the Twins?   

LMAO

 

I remember that one

 

[ZoomSlowik]

Brando, you seem to have a general disdain for prospects. How are you going to build up your team if you don't have any? Anderson has been hitting the ball hard and is an excellent defender. He's 21, in AA, and has yet to show any reason that he is going to be a flop. The guy has a decent chance of being our centerfielder for the next ten years. Randy Johnson may or may not win us anything, if he even wants to come here. It'd be nice to get a player of Randy's caliber in here, but even if we can get them to agree to a deal, Reinsdorf is not going to give us the money. You really think he would invest $10 mil for next year in a 40 year old starter right after he signed Freddy? And how exactly is Pedro going to be rested when he is pitching right now and averaging 104 pitches and 6.4 innings per start? Are you predicting a major injury or something? How did he do in the playoffs last year?

[southsider2k5]

LMAO

 

I remember that one

 

Who was it who said that? I remember thinking what an idiot they were.

[BrandoFan]

Brando, you seem to have a general disdain for prospects. How are you going to build up your team if you don't have any?

 

Yes, because what I was suggesting is to trade ALL of the prospects away.....

 

Anderson has been hitting the ball hard and is an excellent defender. He's 21, in AA, and has yet to show any reason that he is going to be a flop

.

 

So is that it, unless he is a "flop" he shouldn't be traded for a pitcher who makes you an automatic WS contender in the next 2 years, something this sorry 2nd rate franchise hasn't had in AT LEAST 10 years?

 

The guy has a decent chance of being our centerfielder for the next ten years.

 

Is he anything like Jeff Abbott, our LF for the next 10 years? That guy murdered AA pitchers.

 

Randy Johnson may or may not win us anything, if he even wants to come here

.

 

That's the risk you take. Sox could get swept out of ALDS even WITH Randy Johnson....or they could win the World Series. It's all about the odds, and in my opinion Unit increases them - as well as provides a HUGE buzz around the team, which could only improve business and help pay for his 10 Mill a year price tag and maybe, just maybe, help this franchise take off.

 

Wanna play it safe after 86 years? Fine.

 

It'd be nice to get a player of Randy's caliber in here, but even if we can get them to agree to a deal, Reinsdorf is not going to give us the money. You really think he would invest $10 mil for next year in a 40 year old starter right after he signed Freddy?

 

Jerry is cheap and short-sighted (as far as winning and general health of the franchise go, not talking about bottomline here because he is a smart businessman).......but even he should realize that spending 4 extra Mill of upfront money this year and 10 Mill next year on a valuable commodity like Randy Johnson, while a risky proposition given his age, has the potential to galvanise this franchise.

 

With the ongoing park renovations and increased attendance (20% up), with the Comcast deal and revenue sharing ready to kick in, and with Magglio and Frank still in their prime, with Ozzie still a minor celebrity.......the timing couldn't be better.

 

Again, worst comes the worst and Sox get ousted from ALDS and JR flat-out refuses to up the 2005 payroll.....Sox could always trade Randy Johnson and his 10 non-deferred Mill to Boston/NY/SanFran/LA/whoeever -- after what Clemens did this year, there will ALWAYS be demand for Unit from contending teams, provided his knee passes a physical, lube injections and all.

 

If Unit helps Burhle, Garcia and Co win the WS in 2004 or even in 2005 (hopefully Cubs somehow find a way to fail in the meantime), trust me, nobody will give a f*** about Garland or Andersons or Rauch's fate, let alone another overhyped prospect in the Ring mold.

[ZoomSlowik]

I said you have a general disdain for prospects because all you ever seem to do is rip them. The only one I have seen you defend or say you wanted to keep was Reed, and even you said he might never be anything. Yeah, prospects have a chance to choke, but so do established players. Randy might trip over his dog tomorrow and tear his rotator cuff. I'm not high on giving up basically anyone with talent over A ball that we have left, which is roughly what it would take to get Randy. I'd rather see this team ride it out to the deadline and see what happens once Maggs gets back then make a move that is going to cost us a bunch in money and talent when it may or may not be needed. Our pitching hasn't really been the problem the last week or so, it's been our inability to score runs.

[BrandoFan]

I said you have a general disdain for prospects because all you ever seem to do is rip them. The only one I have seen you defend or say you wanted to keep was Reed, and even you said he might never be anything. Yeah, prospects have a chance to choke, but so do established players. Randy might trip over his dog tomorrow and tear his rotator cuff. I'm not high on giving up basically anyone with talent over A ball that we have left, which is roughly what it would take to get Randy. I'd rather see this team ride it out to the deadline and see what happens once Maggs gets back then make a move that is going to cost us a bunch in money and talent when it may or may not be needed. Our pitching hasn't really been the problem the last week or so, it's been our inability to score runs.

[Cerbaho-WG]

Brando, you're being unbelievably naive if you honestly believe that Zona would pull the trigger and ship RJ out for Garland, Rauch and Anderson. Zona would f***ing pillage our minor league system, end of story. And considering that RJ has a no trade clause, are you merely assuming he would waive it to come here? Do you have any proof whatsoever that says he wants out, especially here? If not, please stop flattering us with your pipe dreams.

[ZoomSlowik]

Now that I look at it, Cerbaho is right. Garland Rauch and Anderson might have barely gotten us Garcia, much less the Big Unit. More like those 3 and add Lee and Munoz, maybe more. Just what we need, is to weaken our lineup right now. Look how many players the DBacks gave up for Sexon, and how much they suck now that he got hurt.

[BrandoFan]

kl;

Brando, you're being unbelievably naive if you honestly believe that Zona would pull the trigger and ship RJ out for Garland, Rauch and Anderson. Zona would f***ing pillage our minor league system, end of story

 

Garland + Rauch + Anderson + prospect + a lot of money freed up?

 

Yes, it's not an offer dreams are made of, but for a team that might want to go real young in the next few years.....and considering Unit will turn FORTY-friggin'-ONE at the end of the year and is NO longer in his 1999-2002 perfomance prime......I guess such offer is a start. .

 

It all depends what Yanks and Angels are offering, really. But make no mistake about it, we're not talking about Mark Prior or even Ben Sheets here - Randy Johnson is not worth the farm anymore.

 

And considering that RJ has a no trade clause, are you merely assuming he would waive it to come here?

 

Why the f*** not? IF he is going anywhere, why not come here? Less pressure than NY or California, less chance of him being destroyed in the media. He'd be deified in Chicago if he plays an instrumental part in bringing the WS title here.

 

Do you have any proof whatsoever that says he wants out, especially here? If not, please stop flattering us with your pipe dreams.

 

An unlikely scenario? Perhaps. Pipe dream? Hardly.

 

Then again, with a jaded provincial loser's mentality (60+ Mill OD payroll?! Freddy Garcia??!! Robbie Alomar???!! oh happy days, halleluja!!!) many here seem to have adopted, I could see why the mere mention of adding Randy Johnson at the deadline may seem about as likely as blizzard in Sahara.

 

"It's the Big Bad No-Trade Clause of Doom, oh noooooooooo, run!!"

[ZoomSlowik]

I'm sick of this. Face it Brando, Randy ain't coming. We have very few attractive trade pieces, and Arizona isn't going to just give away their best and most marketable player. Randy may be old, but he is still one of the better pitchers in baseball. They wouldn't even save that much money, at least not in baseball terms. Assuming the Sox took ALL of his salary and that the total contract value of the guys we receive is $0(clearly it isn't), they would save $14 mil. That would be enough to get 2 or 3 average players or one stud in the offseason, and it would only cover it for one year, and they aren't going to be able to get anyone of Randy's quality. Plus, they would lose a bunch of money from the drop in attendance and merchandise sales. So to win in an RJ trade, they would really have to get a monster package and commit to spending money in the coming years, which I doubt they would do. We are not going to get him for what, as you have described in other posts as: a mediocre pitcher(Garland), a decent prospect(Rauch), and a guy who is never going to make an All-Star team(Anderson). I'd rather sign Maggs(which surely won't happen with RJ) and try it for the next few years than depend on an aging star to carry us. He has absolutely no reason to leave Arizona. He has his ring, he has his money, and he's playing close to home. What reason does he have to go anywhere else? Get another ring? Go to a contender? What's the point? I'm done arguing with you, since it is clear that nothing will convince you that the Sox can't come up with a good enough offer to get Randy.

[BrandoFan]

lk

I'm sick of this.

 

Tell it to somebody who gives a f***.

 

Face it Brando, Randy ain't coming.

 

Yeah, it's a shame.

 

Randy may be old, but he is still one of the better pitchers in baseball.

 

His age (will be 41!), knee, arguably dimished skills as compared to his best days AND a really big contract.....You're crazy if you think those factors have no (negative) bearing on a player's trade value.

 

Carlos Guillen (average player for Seattle) and Freddy Garcia (1 really good year out of 5 in 1999-2003) is what a MUCH YOUNGER, MUCH HEALTHIER and MUCH CHEAPER Unit netted back when......You think Arizona should get MORE for him NOW?!

 

We are not going to get him for what, as you have described in other posts as: a mediocre pitcher(Garland), a decent prospect(Rauch), and a guy who is never going to make an All-Star team(Anderson).

 

You forgot about another prospect as well as the TON of money Arizona is saving. But let's look closer at the players:

 

1. Garland: mediocre now, but still very talented and cheap. Could be signed long-term at a relatively cheap price. Change of scenery could do him a world of good.

 

2. Rauch: Talented pitcher, maybe their pitching coach could do something with him - if he stays healthy, he could amount to something down the line - not an ace or even a #2, but maybe a good #3, who knows. Solid prospect.

 

3. Anderson. I don't think he will be great, but I don't have a time machine and could very well end up being wrong.

 

4. Another prospect. Couldn't Arizona find another Francisco or another Rupe in our organization? Everett would have never netted those prospects if Texas didn't pay his salary in full.

 

Of course, if you and Cerb have any suggestions as to WHO Arizona might want instead, feel free to weigh in.

 

I'd rather sign Maggs(which surely won't happen with RJ) and try it for the next few years than depend on an aging star to carry us. He has absolutely no reason to leave Arizona.

 

With dramatically increased revenues as compared to 2003, and with more good will and momentum heading into 2005 (especially if Sox do some major damage in the playoffs), you could do BOTH if Maggs proves he is worth it in the final 3 months of the season. IF.

 

Koch and his 6.3 Mill are gone. 2 of Loaiza/Valentin/Konerko/Lee are as good as gone, hopefully. That right there can pay for Randy Johnson in 2005 and then some. Or you could always get rid of Unit before next year - there will be plenty of takers among the Big Money teams.

 

He has his ring, he has his money, and he's playing close to home. What reason does he have to go anywhere else? Get another ring? Go to a contender? What's the point?

 

Wrong questions to be asking. My point mainly deals with WHY SOX SHOULD PURSUE him, NOT why he would want to come here. I said long time ago that if a serious offer to get him is made and he ends up shooting it down, then I could defiinately live with that.......Have Sox made a big offer?

 

But to answer your question.....Maybe because he still has that true Hall of Famer's

uber-competitive spirit laying dormant, and might want to re-experience that special post-season adrenalin rush, in the beautiful Chicago no less........as opposed to becoming an old man sitting on his millions in the lizard land we call Arizona, taking the mound every 5th day while his team is losing 100 games. He seems to be content with the latter scenario, which is a shame, really.

[Wedge]

Brando, this is from the Peter Gammons column this week:

 

Randy can go where he wants if he wants. He owns a house in Southern California and would have just as good a chance of going to the World Series if he pitched for the Angels or Dodgers as the Yankees. Problem is, when one of those teams called, the answer was that Randy Johnson isn't going anywhere.

 

He ain't going anywhere. Drop it.

 

By the way, I hope they get Eddy. We'd have a tremendous bullpen. I think Eddy, Marte, and Shingo could close any game for us. Having a 6 inning game is huge.

[Al Lopez Ghost (old)]

I know that nobody will agree with me on this, but I'd trade Borchard and Rauch for Guardado. I don't think Rauch has that much going for him. I'm still hoping Borchard will make it, but I'd roll the dice on this one.

[Wedge]

I know that nobody will agree with me on this, but I'd trade Borchard and Rauch for Guardado. I don't think Rauch has that much going for him. I'm still hoping Borchard will make it, but I'd roll the dice on this one.

I think that's a pretty good trade right there.

[ZoomSlowik]

I like Guardado and would gladly deal one of the two guys for Guardado. I'm not sure about both of them, that might be a little steep for a reliever, and might be able to use one in another deal. Maybe one of them and some other lesser prospects. As I have said, the only guy I do not want to see go in a deal is Anderson.