RibbieRubarb Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Hey look! They made a movie about Ozzietheairedale's life! OTAD's life story!! Lighten up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Hey look! They made a movie about Ozzietheairedale's life! OTAD's life story!! Lighten up! Good one Ribbie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Ozzie you're very good at criticizing after the fact... No scratch that.. You do a lot of criticizing after the fact. How about throwing about some ideas as to make this team better now, within reason. I guarantee KW would do better than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goober Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 I guarantee KW would do better than you. are you kidding? who wouldn't want jeff liefer in the lineup? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 here are some facts on the great kenny williams fact... took over a 95 win team with a payroll not much over 30 million dollars fact...our owner..mr. cheapskate , let williams double the payroll to 60 plus million the very next season..making it the largest payroll in the division.. fact...we play and have played in the weakest division in baseball..basically because the other teams in the division are not major market teams...no other division has it this easy.. fact..the last two years minnesota has kicked our butts..with a lessor payroll.. fact...kenny williams teams have won NOTHING..NADA ..ZIPPO.. fact..we have not had a lefty power hitter that has 30 homers since williams took the team over..3 and 1/2 years later unless valentin , who was here when williams got here , continues his career year in homers we still wont have one...opinion..thats the biggest achilles heel on this team..never been addressed... two trades i want to discuss cause i saw some stuff that has me shaking my head the olivo trade ..imo , anyone who thinks we won that trade is in serious denial...bradford has spent the last 3 plus years as the A's set up man helping them to the playoffs in all three years..he's still there...just think to last year...we had marte and gordon in the pen doing a good job and wunsch for half the year...everyone else stunk...billy botch , rick white..omg..you guys dont think chad bradford wouldnt have helped more than miguel olivo??... the billy botch trade..because we got neil botch in that trade it makes a winner for us???... :headshake ...with kieth foulke last year we win the division..probably by 4 or 5 games...but im sure in three years when botch is maybe a halfway decent pitcher and we are at 90 years and counting since winning a world series you can all say i told you so :headshake there couldnt have been a better situation for a GM to walk into (except of course the skanks) then the one KW took over...3 plus years later in the weakest division in baseball we no titles to show for it and the largest lead we ever had in the division was 2 1/2 games...but its all ok..just listen to the hawkaroo...it was all jerry manuel's fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Wells was a cancer, but explain to me what Mike Sirotka has done to call this trade (player for player) a bust. Wells did do some questionable things, but we still have to give him some credit. Your guy Buerhle gave Wells a lot of credit for what he taught him in Chicago; I think that's pretty huge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Wells did do some questionable things, but we still have to give him some credit. Your guy Buerhle gave Wells a lot of credit for what he taught him in Chicago; I think that's pretty huge. I agree, which is why I didn't really rip the trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Good grief... Koch had just come off an insane WINNING year. How in the hell was Kenny supposed to know that he was going to crap out..??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Good grief... Koch had just come off an insane WINNING year. How in the hell was Kenny supposed to know that he was going to crap out..??? Well he did throw a lot of innnings, so he should have known.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Well he did throw a lot of innnings, so he should have known.... Mr Cleo he aint.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Mr Cleo he aint.. It's all in the cawds's mon! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Good grief... Koch had just come off an insane WINNING year. How in the hell was Kenny supposed to know that he was going to crap out..??? problem is billy botxh was never in the same class as kieth foulke... foulke's stats just blow botch out of the water... anyone who thinks that botch was a better closer than foulke just didnt so their homework...foulke's era , whip , strike outs per ip , walks per ip , just blew away botch.. remember KW said we traded for botch because we wanted a classic strike out pitcher...but kieth foulke averages more k's per ip than botch..obviously KW didnt do his homework on that trade either..foulke's the better strike out pitcher too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 not to mention , but i will anyways kw gave botch , what was it 7 million a year (?) before he threw pitch one for us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 problem is billy botxh was never in the same class as kieth foulke... foulke's stats just blow botch out of the water... anyone who thinks that botch was a better closer than foulke just didnt so their homework...foulke's era , whip , strike outs per ip , walks per ip , just blew away botch.. remember KW said we traded for botch because we wanted a classic strike out pitcher...but kieth foulke averages more k's per ip than botch..obviously KW didnt do his homework on that trade either..foulke's the better strike out pitcher too Foulke blew a ton of clutch games for the Sox and if you want me to start naming them I will... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Baggio and Ozzie...Airdale... Do you guys have any archived posts about the trades when they happened? I would be interested to know if you liked the trades you are now bashing when they happened. Cuz, I was thrilled to get the likes of Alomar, Everett, Wells at the time. Even dumping a middle reliever for a catcher of the future was a good call...there are fewer excellent catchers than there are serviceable middle relievers. And w/o Olivo, we don't get Ben Davis...i mean Freddy. C'mon, not all trades work out for the best, but you go by what you know. If you start to overanalyze, someone else is going to slip in and steal that guy. Make some suggestions and let's see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 But he's learned from his mistakes... We now have Josh Fields and Josh Fields Somebody else will fall for it. And don't forget we have two Carlos Lee's as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Colon wasn't half the pitcher he was projected to be last year, so that deal was a bust - whoever they gave up for him. In fact, I wouldn't mind having Liefer, Biddle and Osuna right now. Felix Diaz right now is a nobody. So we'll see. Wells was a cancer who did nothing for us. He goes to the Yankees and pitches great. Knowing when to get rid of a guy you got who sucks is not a ringing endorsement. Since you've obviously got a crystal ball, maybe Kenny could call you for some advice? When you judge a trade, you have to look at it in two steps: Step 1: How does the trade look on paper? Is what you received equal to or greater than what you got back? You might also need add a correction factor in here for need. If you've got 3 catchers that can be All-Stars, but you need a CF, maybe giving up 1 All-Star catcher for a solid CF is fair. You also need to do some amount of reasonable projection: where does this guy fit in On paper, the David Wells trade was a very good one. We got an All-Star caliber pitcher who could be an ace. We desperately needed one, especially considering how terrible our staff looked healthwise at that point. Had it worked out (part of Step 2), I think we would have at least gone to the ALCS. Thumbs up to Kenny for that trade On paper, the Ritchie trade just sucks. We gave up 3 strong prospects (especially when you consider that Kip Wells performed comparably to him). On paper, the Colon trade was awesome. We got another All-Star ace. We gave up nothing. On paper, the Garcia trade is a push. We got an all-Star ace type pitcher that will be around for 3 years. We gave up a promising catcher who may or may not become an all-star and two pretty good prospects. When you consider our need was for another starter, I think this trade looks favorable. On paper, Uribe for Miles was a "who cares" sort of trade. It looked like we picked up a good defensive infielder and gave up a decent hitting prospect. However, our infield seemed set at the time, with a promising young 3B in Crede, Valentine, Konerko, and Willie Harris figuring to get much time. It looked like Uribe would be a suitable replacement for Graffanino and may have provided better defense. I'll just consider those few trades for the moment and we'll move onto Step 2: How do the players in question perform? This is the tough part, since GMs tend to get graded more on this than making good trades on paper. This is more of the intuition part of the job. In retrospect, I'd still say the Wells trade was a push. He didn't perform well on the field, but he had a huge impact on some of our young pitchers and helped Buehrle step it up. In retrospect, Ritchie was a horrible trade, but there was some talk that Schueler played a role in it. In retrospect, Colon was a pretty good trade. We got what we wanted out of him and the guys we gave up didn't really amount to much of anything. To early to say anything about Garcia. In retrospect, the Uribe trade looks brilliant. We got more than a defensive replacement/utilityman: we got an everyday player who can really drive the team around him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RibbieRubarb Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 From the team that brought you Cagney and Lacey Starsky and Hutch comes the newest TV team to crush logic where ever it may hide... b**** AND MOAN Starring Baggio202 and Ozzietheairedale Coming this fall to NBC Sit ubu sit...good dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 From the team that brought you Cagney and Lacey Starsky and Hutch comes the newest TV team to crush logic where ever it may hide... b**** AND MOAN Starring Baggio202 and Ozzietheairedale Coming this fall to NBC Sit ubu sit...good dog. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Sit ubu sit...good dog. Turn your volume up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 the olivo trade ..imo , anyone who thinks we won that trade is in serious denial...bradford has spent the last 3 plus years as the A's set up man helping them to the playoffs in all three years..he's still there...just think to last year...we had marte and gordon in the pen doing a good job and wunsch for half the year...everyone else stunk...billy botch , rick white..omg..you guys dont think chad bradford wouldnt have helped more than miguel olivo??... the billy botch trade..because we got neil botch in that trade it makes a winner for us???... :headshake ...with kieth foulke last year we win the division..probably by 4 or 5 games...but im sure in three years when botch is maybe a halfway decent pitcher and we are at 90 years and counting since winning a world series you can all say i told you so :headshake there couldnt have been a better situation for a GM to walk into (except of course the skanks) then the one KW took over...3 plus years later in the weakest division in baseball we no titles to show for it and the largest lead we ever had in the division was 2 1/2 games...but its all ok..just listen to the hawkaroo...it was all jerry manuel's fault Bradford is a righty-only relief pitcher. A decent righty-only relief pitcher are the easiest, and cheapest commodities in baseball to come by. Virtually every team in baseball has a relief pitcher that does a good job of getting righties out. I'd take an everyday player over situational relief pitcher every time. The Foulke trade may very well have been a wash. I don't think the Sox win the WS with him last year, and this year he'd been gone. Who knew Koch would prove to be completely incompetent? Hindsight's always 20/20. The Sox's situation was the best? Come on, he had(as you pointed out) a 95-win team with a $30 million dollar payroll, comprised of a pitching staff that included Mike Sirotka, who hasn't pitched since, Jim PArque, who cant crack a MLB roster, Cal Eldred, who caught lightning in a bottle one last time, James Baldwin, a mediocre pitcher who had his career year in the 1st half of 2000, Chris Singleton in CF, and Herbert Perry at 3B. What he walked into was a setup for failure. NO gm was going to win the next year with that team. He moves some of those guys and they dont win, he gets blamed for not keeping a winning team together. He keeps those guys and they dont win, he gets blamed for not improving the team. KW has exactly the same number of WS games as Billy Beane, Jim Hendry, Theo Epstein/Dan Duquette, and many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moochpuppy Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 This is why drugs are bad. :headshake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Foulke blew a ton of clutch games for the Sox and if you want me to start naming them I will... Go ahead, I'd love to hear them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 Go ahead, I'd love to hear them. I gotta agree. Keith was great, but it seemed like whenever the Sox REALLY needed a win, he'd blow the save. I remember in 2001 he blew a huge game against Seattle that would have put us over 500. That one was a huge heartbreaker IIRC. That said, I'd rather have him that Cotts/Valdez/Koch/whatever we got out of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted July 7, 2004 Share Posted July 7, 2004 From the team that brought you Cagney and Lacey Starsky and Hutch comes the newest TV team to crush logic where ever it may hide... b**** AND MOAN Starring Baggio202 and Ozzietheairedale Coming this fall to NBC Sit ubu sit...good dog. Hilarious! Here is the deal ... baggio has had a hard on for Williams since the 2000 season, which he felt was a dynasty in the making. Schueler supposedly had the Sox set up for a lengthy string of pennants and dare I say it, World Series. Now here comes Williams and he trades away, no, ruins the entire farm system that was rated #1 by Baseball America. Never mind 4 starting pitchers arms fell off, never mind that Chad Bradford ultimately turned into a big part of acquiring an ace pitcher, never mind 3/4 of the guys BA rated so highly never panned out, never mind all these supposed "crown jewels" haven't panned out for other teams. Never mind all that, it's just "woe is us, we traded the great Aaron Miles". I have a hard time taking anything he says seriously after he ranted for two weeks before SoxFest he was gonna stand up at the Q+A and demand KW's resignation ... not only on this site, but another as well. When it came time for that to happen though ... choke, gag, sputter ... next question please. How long are you gonna play this one trick pony card baggio? We get it that you think KW is bad. Go ahead and keep thinking that 2000 team was the start of a dynasty. How is that Mark Johnson Fan Club coming along? Sheesh, not to go overboard on the sarcasm here, but I went through all of KW's trades with you last winter on this site baggio ... every single one. And now here you are, rehashing the same old topics, over and over. And it always comes back to 2000. Memo to you: The White Sox won squat in 2000. Get over it. Just my opinion, but I think you place waaaaaayyyy too much stock in people's opinions whose neighbor/cousin/sister/best friend works for the Sox in an admin capacity and says nasty things about KW because he didn't say hello to her in the elevator or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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