KW: Anybody know a worse GM?

[aboz56]

has there been an explanation on how the alomar-pacheco deal was a sox loss?

We are still waiting.

[Rowand44]

This latest fiasco with Maggs is rapidly confirming that Williams sucks as a GM.  How he has let it become public knowledge that he can't sign Magglio is beyond me.  Remember, he inherited a division winner from Schuler.  How many new GMs get to start with a team like that?

 

A review:

 

Debacles:  Ritchie trade, Koch trade

 

Bad:  Wells signing (I don't care if it looked good to fans, he's the GM and should know better), Colon trade, Alomar trade, Everett trade, not signing Gordon

 

Looking bad:  Uribe trade, Maggs re-signing

 

Jury still out:  Garcia trade (will only avoid being a debacle if Sox get to WS)

 

Good deals:  Loaiza, Schoenweiss, re-signing Garcia, Buehrle

 

Maybe I've missed some deals but overall, this guy sucks.

:dips***

[LDF]

has there been an explanation on how the alomar-pacheco deal was a sox loss?

how serious of a prospect is he????

 

has he made the majors yet.

 

however i did mention getting him back was a good move on kw side as i posted before.

[Goober]

how serious of a prospect is he????

i think he was considered for the 5th starter spot during spring training, IIRC

[LDF]

i think he was considered for the 5th starter spot during spring training, IIRC

being considered and being are 2 different things. there is no "almost", it is either he is or he is not.

 

however on paper i considered that a loss, however i can't fault kw for trying on that move.

 

i was dealing with returns on the trade.

[upnorthsox]

Remember the third game of the 2002 season against seattle?  The Sox were up by 2 or 3 runs and Keith "Queer as" Foulke gave up SIX CONSECUTIVE SINGLES!!!!!

Ah, and that cost us the pennant.

 

Btw, do you remember Maggs going 2 for 10 vs ATL or 1 for 11 vs NYM in 2002?

 

How about Konerko's 0 for 10 vs Mon or his .215 July?

 

Or Thomas' 1 for 12 vs Cubs or .212 June or his .183 August?

 

Or Buehrle's 14 runs in 2 losses to the Scrubs?

 

Luckily for them it was all Foulke's fault or there may have been some 'splaining to do.

[aboz56]

Pachecho has been hurt part of the year anyhow.

 

He is still an intriguing prospect for the bullpen.

[JoshPR]

Wait - so let me get this straight - Miles will continue to hit .320 while Uribe will slump and slump and slump?

 

Ozzie - you're such a character... 

 

As said once by Homer in the Simpsons:  "Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you, your moron!"

[southsideirish]

Hey dopey southside

 

Look at the comparison I was responding to before you get your green beer in an uproar.

dopey? wow!

 

 

 

I don't care what you were responding to. I remember your post back to mine a few pages back that it mentioned getting Shingo had nothing to do with not signing Gordon.

 

Are you actually serious about comparing Gordon with draft picks this year? Has anybody looked at his numbers? Duh!

Coming up with Shingo had nothing to do with losing Gordon. Dumb logic.

 

In fact it did. In fact Shingo is better than Gordon and we drafted Gio Gonzalez and saved about 3 million dollars.

 

 

 

Too bad, so sad, bye bye.

[BrandoFan]

From the team that brought you

Cagney and Lacey

Starsky and Hutch

comes the newest TV team to crush logic where ever it may hide...

 

b**** AND MOAN

 

Starring Baggio202 and Ozzietheairedale

 

Coming this fall to NBC

 

 

 

Sit ubu sit...good dog.

Baggio is ok, but ozziebagjksgsb character IS a spectacular moron, you're right.

[BrandoFan]

2) 2002 (might have been 2001) road game in the Metrodome when the Sox had a 6-3 lead going into the bottom of the 9th. 4 runs later.........(DAMN YOU DENNY HOCKING! )

 

No. 2001.

 

That was one of the freakiest blown saves I've ever seen. Twins basically blooped and dribbled Foulke to death - didn't help that Konerko had a range of a pea.

 

That was THE definitive Sox loss (terrible baserunning/base-clogging, defense AND hitting a bunch of warning track shots when a simple single would have sufficed)............and THE definitive Twin Win (smart and aggressive running, awesome defense, a lot of contact resulting in "soft" but timely hits).

 

:puke

[JoshPR]

Hey dopey southside

 

Look at the comparison I was responding to before you get your green beer in an uproar.

Do you gotta call people names to support your baseless argument?? It seems to me you know Jack s***. All you do is b**** and moan, If you don't like the team just root for the Yanks or something. Kenny has made 1 bad trade yes, But has made several good ones and has made Reinsdork open the pocket to go for it, and has the balls to pull the trigger, Something i can't say about Shueler.

 

If your gonna argue there's no need to call people names, all you seem is a like a 5th grader in the patio of the school. Sheesh GROW UP FOR ONCE, I'm sick of it and i'm sure others are too.

 

Have a nice day :dips***

[BrandoFan]

No offense, but your an idiot.

 

- There is no way to positively spin the Ritchie trade. Everyone thought that he would be a solid middle of the rotation starter(at the worst) and time was running out for KWells and Fogg in the Sox managements eyes. Losing KWells was the only big lose from that deal. He has been very good the past 2 seasons, however, it is worth noting that he has really struggled this year(4.66 ERA and 1.61 WHIP). Don't get me started about Fogg. That guy was a fluke in 2002. He has since seen his ERA climb to 5.26 in 2003 and 6.18 so far in 2004. This was not a good trade, but it isn't turning out as bad as it originally appeared.

 

- You can put a positive spin on the Koch trade. While Koch has cost the Sox many games over the past year and a half, and Foulke has been lights out over the past year and a half, you have to take other things into consideration. First, Foulke was all but gone after the 2003 season, so it was better to get a longer-term solution. No one knew that Koch would be THIS bad. Second, you have to take into consideration the other players involved in the trade. There is still a good shot that Cotts will become a solid major leaguer pitcher. You also have to consider the Valdez kid that they got from Florida for Koch. While he isn't going to be a star, it appears that he has turned a corner offensively, and with his great D and speed, could be a solid major leaguer or utility infielder. The point being is that this trade wasn't as bad as it appears, and the Sox could actually end up "winning" the trade if Cotts and Valdez develop into decent major leaguers.

 

- For starters, the Sox didn't sign DWells, they traded for him. Secondly, they ended up giving up absolutely nothing to get him since Sirotka has never pitched in the majors since. Finally, if you look at DWells stats before and after he was a White Sox, you will see that his numbers are pretty impressive. The fact of the matter is that the Sox were simple unlucky that he wasn't healthy, because he was and still is a very good pitcher(that the Sox got for almost nothing).

 

- As someone else pointed out, there is no way that you can consider that Colon trade a bad trade. Once again the Sox gave up almost nothing to get him, and he gave the Sox a great season in 2003 that almost lead them to the postseason. Biddle has developed into one of the worst relievers in the game. He is sporting a rather impressive 8.13 ERA as we currently speak. Liefer has turned into a career minor leaguer. Osuna is a decent right handed reliever, but those come a dime a dozen. This was a very good trade, and to top it off, the Sox got compensation for Colon leaving, and received a couple of good looking youngsters in the draft. This is a good trade any way that you slice it.

 

- The Alomar trade is a draw in my book, unless Ring develops into a good reliever in the majors. Alomar didn't really help the Sox, but the trade didn't really hurt the Sox. The Sox have a very deep minor leaguer system when it comes to left handed pitchers, so the lose of Ring wasn't a big deal.

 

- The Everett trade is also a draw in my book. Everett was a great player for the Sox for the 2+ months that they had him, and almost singlehandle helped the Sox reach the postseason. The Sox did give up some pretty good prospects to get him. Webster's star has fallen some and he has gone from a top prospect to simple a "good" prospect. Francisco is pitching well in the majors, but we should wait and see if he maintains it before we call him a big lose. Francisco could never get above high A ball(and pitch well), so it is a huge surprise that he has pitched so well in the majors so far, and leads me to believe that it is a mirage. Rupe was the one prospect that I really hated to see go. I think he really has the potential to be a solid starter in the majors. While this trade is a draw right now, Texas has a good chance of 'winning' this trade in the long-run.

 

- You have to make sure that you don't confuse monetary decisions with KW. While KW does have a hand in the players that are signed or not, it is JR decision whether he wants to shell out the money. So you really can't blame KW for Gordon not resigning. Furthermore, KW did a very good job of signing decent replacements(Takatsu and Politte) with the limited resources that he had. You also had to figure that signing Gordon was a huge risk considering his age and his history of injuries.

 

- How can you say that the Uribe trade was bad? Are you smoking crack? They guy has arguable been the best player on the team in the 1st half. Please don't tell me that you are on Miles jockstrape as well? Miles is a utility infielder on a good team. He is a Rey Sanchez clone, in other words, a guy who can hit for a good average, but does everything else below average. Uribe is 10x the player that Miles is, and his upside is much higher, not to mention the fact that he is 3 years younger. This was a good trade any way that you slice it, and to think otherwise is just plain stupidity on your behalf.

 

- The Sox still have a chance to resign Maggs, albeit a slim chance. Has it ever occured to you that maybe the Sox are better off not giving Maggs 14+M/yr? Have you learned nothing from ARod? History has shown that very few teams can contend with large portions of their payroll tied up in 1 player. Assuming that the payroll remains relatively constant, Maggs would get roughly 20% of the total payroll. While Maggs is a very good player, he is not an elite player that deserves that kind of money(see Bonds, Puljos, Vlad, Arod). Do you not think the Sox would be better off giving Garcia(9M) and someone like Finley(5M) instead of giving Maggs(14M)? Furthermore, in case you haven't noticed, the Sox are actually averaging more runs per game since Maggs went on the DL. That isn't to suggest that the offense is better without Maggs, but that this team could survive without him and would be better off investing his 14M in other places(mainly pitching). Please think this things through before you make comments.

 

There are numerous other deals that you have left out of the good section. What about the signing of Takatsu for the bargain price of 1M? What about the fact that KW tied up Marte for the next 3 year at an extreme bargain? What about the trade to acquire Olivo? What about the trade to acquire Marte? Ect. When you look at things realisticly, you begin to see that the goods far outweigh the bads, which is usually the indication of a good GM.

 

PS. That 2000 playoff team was a fluke. Even if Shur stayed on the Sox would have fallen back to reality in 2001. I am beginning to think that Shur knew that the 2000 team was a fluke and got out on a positive note, and let someone else take on a sinking ship. So please don't pretend that KW was the reason for the fall in 2001.

A solid post.

 

I have bashed the s*** out of the short-sighted Sox management for sometime, but I realize that when I am bashing KW (get Randy Johnson, get Finley, etc, et, etc), who I am REALLY bashing is JR and his frugal investors who, despite the "would gradly trade 6 Bulls titles for 1 WS title" transparent BS rhetoric, continually cheat the Sox out of a fairly bright future (and bigger profits!) all in the name of the now-now-now buck.......

 

Kenny is an average GM at worst. Many mistakes, many successes. Unfortunately, the payroll was never high enough to paint over the mistakes, and successes, also unfortunately, have for the most part been NOT of "out-of-the-ballpark, Sammy Sosa for George Bell" type triumphs. Loaiza in 2003 excepted.

[BrandoFan]

He converted 6 of 7 saves in April of 2002 as we got out to a 16-10 record(I guess that one BS killed our momentum). He didn't blow another save til May 29th and that one(vs NY) came in the middle of a 7 game losing streak so it was hardly a momentum buster. Oh and btw, 2 weeks later he pitched 3 innings of no hit ball to get the win and avoid a most embarassing sweep at The Shrine but of course we don't count that.

 

And since Koch's '02  11-4 record was brought up it should be pointed out that 5 of those 11 wins came after blown saves and 2 more were after he coughed up bigger non-save leads. Of course since we couldn't score after the 7th inning in '02(and damm little before that either) it would have been pretty hard to win 11 for us.

Agreed, anybpdy who

 

1) Blames 2002 failures on Foulke

 

2) Refuses to admit the direct AND indirect damage Koch had done in both in 2003 and 2004

 

is a moron.

 

 

You want to know why Sox lost in 2002?

 

1) Ritchie for Wells. How many games is that?

 

2) Frank Thomas had a slow bat and a low OPS in April-August, which is where the season was basically decided. How many games did it cost compared to his 2000 and 2004 production. With the way Maggs was swinging the stick in 2002, a red-hot and compltely healthy Hurt would have given the Sox a TREMENDEOUS boost and helped avoid some of the losing streaks.

 

3) Kenny Lofton plain quit. How do I know that? Because he had an awesome 2002 with the Giants, then quit again on the Pirates and then had an even better 2nd half with the Cubs. Kenny sold us out when he was needed the most. Him and Ray were demonizing pitchers in the first 40-50 games. What could have been.....They ended up being traded so that made for a few extra losses as well.

 

4) Because of the above 3, a severely weakened Sox team was crushed by a resurgent Minnesota Twin team in Metrodome.......Had those first 3 been in our favor, not only would the Sox have Sox gotten to a BLISTERING start, Minnesota would have been less confident and wouldn't have dominated us head-to-head.

 

Division would have either been won by the Sox outright (as was the case in 2000) OR at least it would have been decided in the last 2 weeks (2003).

[aboz56]

By the way, here is Baseball America's take on the Pachecho-Alomar trade, further evidence that it was not a "lost trade" by KW:

 

It's hard to understand why a general manager on a non-contender would give up a pitcher who throws 95 mph to give Sandy Alomar Jr. an extended tryout, but that's what Colorado's Dan O'Dowd did two years ago.  The White Sox not only got a surprisingly good prospect in Pachecho, but also re-signed Alomar after he spent two months with the Rockies.

 

And his stats last year in Birmingham, where the Barons went 20-4 in his starts during the regular season.

 

151 innings, 12 wins, 2 losses, 2.56 era, 116 K's, .234 Opponents Batting Average.

[LDF]

Kenny is an average GM at worst.    Many mistakes, many successes. Unfortunately, the payroll was never high enough to paint over the mistakes, and successes, also unfortunately, have for the most part been NOT of "out-of-the-ballpark, Sammy Sosa for George Bell" type triumphs. Loaiza in 2003 excepted.

 

jr spent a lot of money on getting albert belle and he will spend money on players who will get him to the point of winning the ws. look at the reason why he would spend the kind of money on colon and to boot give good money to some of the players. however when one players demands money that in his opinion not worth it, like mags or anyone else, he is going to buck.

 

now in ref to sammy trade, here is a guy who hit 10-15 hrs twice, and after the trade to the scrubs hit 8 hrs. but low and behold, he starting to hit 25+...................... come on now, don't tell me he did not have help.

[BrandoFan]

now in ref to sammy trade, here is a guy who hit 10-15 hrs twice, and after the trade to the scrubs hit 8 hrs. but low and behold, he starting to hit 25+...................... come on now, don't tell me he did not have help.

First of all, learn the quote function - you've just attributed something to me I never said. Vlad the Impaler would have nailed your bloody turban to your bloody scalp for this

 

Secondly....JR did NOT spend like he should have, with the exception of the 2001 season. In 2003, 50 Mill payroll was an abomination - one of the most special seasons in this franchise history (All Star Game, 1983-1993 connection) and yet he totally low-balled it 'cuz, you see, he didn't like the 2002 attendance.

 

f*** JR - just another couple of Mill spent on a decent #5 around May would have spared us all of Wright-Porzio-Cotts debacles, and a 5-6 game lead instead of a 2 game lead in mid-September (which was the case) is the difference between winning the division and going home.

 

Given that he refused to pay for Alomar or Everett, obviously 2 Mil would have been too hefty a price.

 

Sums up JR perfectly.

[hammerhead johnson]

Baggio, everything isn't as black and white as you make it appear. When you grow up and learn to think critically about issues you will understand. The 2000 team was a fluke. It is that simple. As someone else pointed out, look at the rotation from that 2000 team.

 

Right off the bat you get charged with blatant stupidity for not recognizing that baggio is 30 at the very least. That proves to me that you don't even read these threads. You're only interested in reading your own bulls***.

 

The 2000 team was a fluke.....only someone who wasn't really a Sox fan back then would say something like that. What, you didn't see all of the "It's Time" billboards on the Kennedy and the Dan Ryan when the 2001 season kicked off?

 

Where are you from? How old are you? Why are you such a f***ing coward that you leave these little tid bits out of your profile?

 

And why does Brando hammer your ass into the ground every time you guys argue? Tell me, because I want to know.

 

I think that I'd rather stab my eyes out than to have to read your posts in their entirety. Remember, it's the quality that matters, not the quantity.

[JoshPR]

Is anybody else here sick and tired of the insults and name calling by a few here just because others don't agree with them??

 

 

[Queen Prawn]

Is anybody else here sick and tired of the insults and name calling by a few here just because others don't agree with them?? 

 

 

Yes.

[Heads22]

A lot of you guys are acting like children. I'll reopen this later.