KW: Anybody know a worse GM?

[CSF]

Go ahead, I'd love to hear them.

I'll give 3 of them:

 

1) 2002 Home game vs the Yankees when Buerhle completely outdueled Roger Clemens for 7 strong innings. Then Foulke came in and gave up a 3 run bomb to Jason Giambi completing a Yankees sweep. Foulke got booed off the field.

 

2) 2002 (might have been 2001) road game in the Metrodome when the Sox had a 6-3 lead going into the bottom of the 9th. 4 runs later.........(DAMN YOU DENNY HOCKING! :fyou)

 

3) 2002 Saturday night home game vs the Expos. Buerhle left after 8 innings with a tie score 1-1. Foulke came in and gave up a loooooong home run to Vlad Guererro. Sox lose 2-1. If I'm not mistaken, that was the game where Foulke officially lost his closer's job.

 

I'm sure there were more, but those are the ones off the top of my head.

[Steff]

Foulke & Koch 2002 stats

 

........ G IP H R ER HR BB SO W L SV HLD BLSV ERA

CWS 65 77.2 65 26 25 7 13 58 2 4 11 8 3 2.9

Oak 84 93.2 73 38 34 7 46 93 11 4 44 0 6 3.27

[aboz56]

Go ahead, I'd love to hear them.

The two main ones that I can point to are that Seattle game that was mentioned along with home game against the Yankees where we had a sizable lead and he gave up a bomb to Giambi and we ended up losing. Both came in huge spots where we had momentum and he just flat out blew it, no questions asked.

 

And in 2002, when we needed him to step up early in the season, he went in the tank and we had to go to the two headed monster of Osuna and Marte. He then made people think he was having a "great" year by padding his stats in the mop-up role.

[Guest JimH]

Go ahead, I'd love to hear them.

Twins game in the Dome, Yankee game at Comiskey, playoff game vs. the Mariners are three that come to mind.

 

He was, and is, a great pitcher but he wasn't gonna sign here.

 

Baggio has been preaching this ridiculous Chad Bradford bulls*** for at least two years now. He conveniently leaves out how upset he was the Sox traded the great Mark Johnson in that deal.

 

Just so everyone knows:

 

Baggio hates KW.

 

It is all KW's fault we are not a dynasty after the 2000 season.

 

Chad Bradford is a better player than Miguel Olivo, that's why the A's didn't get Freddy Garcia and the White Sox did.

[CWSGuy406]

Quotes from OTAD Himself! (click preview)

 

But seriously, anyone who calls the Aaron Miles for Juan Uribe trade a bust for us is an absolute moron.

[Steff]

*snip*

 

 

says nasty things about KW because he didn't say hello to her in the elevator or something.

He bought me coffee at the White Hen last week...

[Guest JimH]

He bought me coffee at the White Hen last week... 

Steff, if KW bought it for baggio, I'm sure the cream would have been sour, the coffee too hot or too cold, the cup leaked, it was too strong, too weak, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ...

[Steff]

Steff, if KW bought it for baggio, I'm sure the cream would have been sour, the coffee too hot or too cold, the cup leaked, it was too strong, too weak, blah blah blah blah blah blah blah ...

Jim.. I used to be the same way until I moved out there and got to know him. He's not that bad at all. Maybe baggs just needs to talk to him with an open mind at SF next year and ignore the little birdy..

[Ozzietheairedale]

Quotes from OTAD Himself!  (click preview)

 

But seriously, anyone who calls the Aaron Miles for Juan Uribe trade a bust for us is an absolute moron.

Uribe (2004): .282 Avg, .306 OBP, .229 in last 30 days

 

Miles (2004): .326 Avg, .355 OBP, .358 in last 30 days

 

'nuff said, hockey puck.

[The Beast]

Bad:  Wells signing  Colon trade, Alomar trade, Everett trade, not signing Gordon

 

Looking bad:  Uribe trade,

Wells signing...don't u mean trade, buddy? He didn't suck, injuries took toll, it happens a lot, (example: Sexson)

 

Colon trade wasn't a loss. I mean the only really good player we gave up was Rocky Biddle, a gamble all of his career that we had to take.

 

Alomar and Everett Deals-I have no problem with that trade. Kenny Williams being aggressive again, its okay to take risks.

 

Gordon-too old. Politte is much better.

 

Uribe trade? Please. He's cooled off a bit, but still he'll be on a tear for .270-.300 by October.

[Chisoxfn]

This latest fiasco with Maggs is rapidly confirming that Williams sucks as a GM.  How he has let it become public knowledge that he can't sign Magglio is beyond me.  Remember, he inherited a division winner from Schuler.  How many new GMs get to start with a team like that?

 

A review:

 

Debacles:  Ritchie trade, Koch trade

 

Bad:  Wells signing (I don't care if it looked good to fans, he's the GM and should know better), Colon trade, Alomar trade, Everett trade, not signing Gordon

 

Looking bad:  Uribe trade, Maggs re-signing

 

Jury still out:  Garcia trade (will only avoid being a debacle if Sox get to WS)

 

Good deals:  Loaiza, Schoenweiss, re-signing Garcia, Buehrle

 

Maybe I've missed some deals but overall, this guy sucks.

How is it KW's fault that Maggs wants Vlad type money. The White Sox have made more then fair offers. They have made offers that would pay him a little more per year then Garrent Anderson reportedly and its my opinion that Garret Anderson is the better player.

 

This is let alone comparing him to Vladdy Guerrero who is superior to Maggs yet Maggs thinks he can get the same amount of money. Now Maggs probably can, but that doesnt' mean the Sox should necessarily offer it to him. Heck, for once KW has basically kept his mouth shut on every question asked to him about Maggs. He always says, we aren't trading him, and I'm not going to go into details about the extension.

[Guest JimH]

ignore the little birdy..

LMAO! The little birdie, classic! More like the big birdie, oops, shame on me.

 

I've met him several times, can't say he's been anything but personable, cordial, willing to spend 5 minutes with you, and looks you in the eye when talking to you.

Not afraid to answer a direct question either.

 

My take is, whether he's a decent guy or not (and I happen to think he is), any way it's sliced, people who think that 2000 team was the start of a long run are nuts. As in, don't know baseball nuts.

 

I have the Prospect Handbook where BA rated the Sox system #1. Amazing how far off BA was in their assessment. Not a knock at BA, it's just a very tough thing to predict. Lots of pitchers got hurt, many guys didn't develop.

 

Now, we are starting to get guys to develop who we can either bring up to the big club, or use in trades. That's what the minor league system is for ... one or the other.

 

So I guess I'm lacking in patience for this "KW ruined a dynasty in the making" drivel, especially when it's been stated and refuted several times already.

[CWSGuy406]

Uribe (2004):  .282 Avg, .306 OBP,  .229 in last 30 days

 

Miles (2004): .326 Avg, .355 OBP,  .358 in last 30 days

 

'nuff said, hockey puck.

Uribe also plays three positions for us, above average, might I add. Miles plays one. Uribe is the reason why we won so many games early on. Meanwhile, Miles was sent down because he couldn't hit at Coors.

 

Give it some time, buddy...

[IlliniKrush]

It would be nice if Uribe was the reason we win games in the second half as well, as he's been crashing down to earth and an alarming rate in the last month.

[southsider2k5]

Uribe (2004):  .282 Avg, .306 OBP,  .229 in last 30 days

 

Miles (2004): .326 Avg, .355 OBP,  .358 in last 30 days

 

'nuff said, hockey puck.

I guess the first 50 games don't matter? Nice try at manipulating stats though...

[JoshPR]

This latest fiasco with Maggs is rapidly confirming that Williams sucks as a GM.  How he has let it become public knowledge that he can't sign Magglio is beyond me.  Remember, he inherited a division winner from Schuler.  How many new GMs get to start with a team like that?

 

A review:

 

Debacles:  Ritchie trade, Koch trade

 

Bad:  Wells signing (I don't care if it looked good to fans, he's the GM and should know better), Colon trade, Alomar trade, Everett trade, not signing Gordon

 

Looking bad:  Uribe trade, Maggs re-signing

 

Jury still out:  Garcia trade (will only avoid being a debacle if Sox get to WS)

 

Good deals:  Loaiza, Schoenweiss, re-signing Garcia, Buehrle

 

Maybe I've missed some deals but overall, this guy sucks.

:headshake

 

Anybody see a worst thread?

[southsider2k5]

:headshake

 

Anybody see a worst thread?  

Unfortunately, it wouldn't be that hard to find a bunch of much worse threads...

[CSF]

Uribe (2004):  .282 Avg, .306 OBP,  .229 in last 30 days

 

Miles (2004): .326 Avg, .355 OBP,  .358 in last 30 days

 

'nuff said, hockey puck.

With the exception of Opening Day at the Cell and the 1st game against the Cubs at the Cell 2 weeks ago, Uribe also provides above average defense. That itself is worth the risk.

[Goober]

Quotes from OTAD Himself!  (click preview)

but with the valley girl voice right?

[Butter Parque]

Not signing Gordon actually gave us an extra draft pick that I thnk we used on Gio Gonzalez, is that correct? Plus we signed Shingo instead. I didn't mind that at all.

I'd rather have Flash Gordon over Shingo anyday

[Goober]

I'd rather have Flash Gordon over Shingo anyday

what about a day when gordon is hurt?

[baggio202]

Hilarious!

 

Here is the deal ... baggio has had a hard on for Williams since the 2000 season, which he felt was a dynasty in the making.  Schueler supposedly had the Sox set up for a lengthy string of pennants and dare I say it, World Series.  Now here comes Williams and he trades away, no, ruins the entire farm system that was rated #1 by Baseball America.

 

Never mind 4 starting pitchers arms fell off, never mind that Chad Bradford ultimately turned into a big part of acquiring an ace pitcher, never mind 3/4 of the guys BA rated so highly never panned out, never mind all these supposed "crown jewels" haven't panned out for other teams.

 

Never mind all that, it's just "woe is us, we traded the great Aaron Miles".

 

I have a hard time taking anything he says seriously after he ranted for two weeks before SoxFest he was gonna stand up at the Q+A and demand KW's resignation ... not only on this site, but another as well.  When it came time for that to happen though ... choke, gag, sputter ... next question please.

 

How long are you gonna play this one trick pony card baggio?  We get it that you think KW is bad.  Go ahead and keep thinking that 2000 team was the start of a dynasty.  How is that Mark Johnson Fan Club coming along?

 

Sheesh, not to go overboard on the sarcasm here, but I went through all of KW's trades with you last winter on this site baggio ... every single one.  And now here you are, rehashing the same old topics, over and over.  And it always comes back to 2000.  Memo to you:  The White Sox won squat in 2000.  Get over it.  Just my opinion, but I think you place waaaaaayyyy too much stock in people's opinions whose neighbor/cousin/sister/best friend works for the Sox in an admin capacity and says nasty things about KW because he didn't say hello to her in the elevator or something.

i came on this after sox fest and admitted i messed up at soxfest and apoligized about it...my profession does not lend to public speaking and i was nervous and what i wanted to say didnt come out right...now you can keep bringing it up and personally attacking me about it all you want ..i dont care..i did something kenny williams said he would never do just a few weeks ago..and thats apoligize for a mistake..

 

and i dont hate KW as a person since i dont know him but i think he is incompetent as a GM...very incompetent...you think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread..thats great... you have your opinion and i have mine..you share your opinion on KW just as much as i share mine...but i never attacked you personally for your opinions and wont..or anyone else that disagrees with me...

 

i didnt start this topic..just added to it...and how long am i gonna play this one trick pony??...how long are gonna play your one trick pony about how good he is???...i didnt know i needed your permission to post here..

 

if you dont like what i post here is an idea..put me ignore..or dont

[whitesox61382]

This latest fiasco with Maggs is rapidly confirming that Williams sucks as a GM.  How he has let it become public knowledge that he can't sign Magglio is beyond me.  Remember, he inherited a division winner from Schuler.  How many new GMs get to start with a team like that?

 

A review:

 

Debacles:  Ritchie trade, Koch trade

 

Bad:  Wells signing (I don't care if it looked good to fans, he's the GM and should know better), Colon trade, Alomar trade, Everett trade, not signing Gordon

 

Looking bad:  Uribe trade, Maggs re-signing

 

Jury still out:  Garcia trade (will only avoid being a debacle if Sox get to WS)

 

Good deals:  Loaiza, Schoenweiss, re-signing Garcia, Buehrle

 

Maybe I've missed some deals but overall, this guy sucks.

No offense, but your an idiot.

 

- There is no way to positively spin the Ritchie trade. Everyone thought that he would be a solid middle of the rotation starter(at the worst) and time was running out for KWells and Fogg in the Sox managements eyes. Losing KWells was the only big lose from that deal. He has been very good the past 2 seasons, however, it is worth noting that he has really struggled this year(4.66 ERA and 1.61 WHIP). Don't get me started about Fogg. That guy was a fluke in 2002. He has since seen his ERA climb to 5.26 in 2003 and 6.18 so far in 2004. This was not a good trade, but it isn't turning out as bad as it originally appeared.

 

- You can put a positive spin on the Koch trade. While Koch has cost the Sox many games over the past year and a half, and Foulke has been lights out over the past year and a half, you have to take other things into consideration. First, Foulke was all but gone after the 2003 season, so it was better to get a longer-term solution. No one knew that Koch would be THIS bad. Second, you have to take into consideration the other players involved in the trade. There is still a good shot that Cotts will become a solid major leaguer pitcher. You also have to consider the Valdez kid that they got from Florida for Koch. While he isn't going to be a star, it appears that he has turned a corner offensively, and with his great D and speed, could be a solid major leaguer or utility infielder. The point being is that this trade wasn't as bad as it appears, and the Sox could actually end up "winning" the trade if Cotts and Valdez develop into decent major leaguers.

 

- For starters, the Sox didn't sign DWells, they traded for him. Secondly, they ended up giving up absolutely nothing to get him since Sirotka has never pitched in the majors since. Finally, if you look at DWells stats before and after he was a White Sox, you will see that his numbers are pretty impressive. The fact of the matter is that the Sox were simple unlucky that he wasn't healthy, because he was and still is a very good pitcher(that the Sox got for almost nothing).

 

- As someone else pointed out, there is no way that you can consider that Colon trade a bad trade. Once again the Sox gave up almost nothing to get him, and he gave the Sox a great season in 2003 that almost lead them to the postseason. Biddle has developed into one of the worst relievers in the game. He is sporting a rather impressive 8.13 ERA as we currently speak. Liefer has turned into a career minor leaguer. Osuna is a decent right handed reliever, but those come a dime a dozen. This was a very good trade, and to top it off, the Sox got compensation for Colon leaving, and received a couple of good looking youngsters in the draft. This is a good trade any way that you slice it.

 

- The Alomar trade is a draw in my book, unless Ring develops into a good reliever in the majors. Alomar didn't really help the Sox, but the trade didn't really hurt the Sox. The Sox have a very deep minor leaguer system when it comes to left handed pitchers, so the lose of Ring wasn't a big deal.

 

- The Everett trade is also a draw in my book. Everett was a great player for the Sox for the 2+ months that they had him, and almost singlehandle helped the Sox reach the postseason. The Sox did give up some pretty good prospects to get him. Webster's star has fallen some and he has gone from a top prospect to simple a "good" prospect. Francisco is pitching well in the majors, but we should wait and see if he maintains it before we call him a big lose. Francisco could never get above high A ball(and pitch well), so it is a huge surprise that he has pitched so well in the majors so far, and leads me to believe that it is a mirage. Rupe was the one prospect that I really hated to see go. I think he really has the potential to be a solid starter in the majors. While this trade is a draw right now, Texas has a good chance of 'winning' this trade in the long-run.

 

- You have to make sure that you don't confuse monetary decisions with KW. While KW does have a hand in the players that are signed or not, it is JR decision whether he wants to shell out the money. So you really can't blame KW for Gordon not resigning. Furthermore, KW did a very good job of signing decent replacements(Takatsu and Politte) with the limited resources that he had. You also had to figure that signing Gordon was a huge risk considering his age and his history of injuries.

 

- How can you say that the Uribe trade was bad? Are you smoking crack? They guy has arguable been the best player on the team in the 1st half. Please don't tell me that you are on Miles jockstrape as well? Miles is a utility infielder on a good team. He is a Rey Sanchez clone, in other words, a guy who can hit for a good average, but does everything else below average. Uribe is 10x the player that Miles is, and his upside is much higher, not to mention the fact that he is 3 years younger. This was a good trade any way that you slice it, and to think otherwise is just plain stupidity on your behalf.

 

- The Sox still have a chance to resign Maggs, albeit a slim chance. Has it ever occured to you that maybe the Sox are better off not giving Maggs 14+M/yr? Have you learned nothing from ARod? History has shown that very few teams can contend with large portions of their payroll tied up in 1 player. Assuming that the payroll remains relatively constant, Maggs would get roughly 20% of the total payroll. While Maggs is a very good player, he is not an elite player that deserves that kind of money(see Bonds, Puljos, Vlad, Arod). Do you not think the Sox would be better off giving Garcia(9M) and someone like Finley(5M) instead of giving Maggs(14M)? Furthermore, in case you haven't noticed, the Sox are actually averaging more runs per game since Maggs went on the DL. That isn't to suggest that the offense is better without Maggs, but that this team could survive without him and would be better off investing his 14M in other places(mainly pitching). Please think this things through before you make comments.

 

There are numerous other deals that you have left out of the good section. What about the signing of Takatsu for the bargain price of 1M? What about the fact that KW tied up Marte for the next 3 year at an extreme bargain? What about the trade to acquire Olivo? What about the trade to acquire Marte? Ect. When you look at things realisticly, you begin to see that the goods far outweigh the bads, which is usually the indication of a good GM.

 

PS. That 2000 playoff team was a fluke. Even if Shur stayed on the Sox would have fallen back to reality in 2001. I am beginning to think that Shur knew that the 2000 team was a fluke and got out on a positive note, and let someone else take on a sinking ship. So please don't pretend that KW was the reason for the fall in 2001.

[witesoxfan]

I'd rather have Flash Gordon over Shingo anyday

I'd rather have Flash over Shingo too...IF they both cost the same amount.

 

Shingo costs us $1 mill, Flash costs the Yankees about $3 mill. Flash is a damn good reliever, but $3 mill would be too much for us.

[upnorthsox]

The two main ones that I can point to are that Seattle game that was mentioned along with home game against the Yankees where we had a sizable lead and he gave up a bomb to Giambi and we ended up losing.  Both came in huge spots where we had momentum and he just flat out blew it, no questions asked.

 

And in 2002, when we needed him to step up early in the season, he went in the tank and we had to go to the two headed monster of Osuna and Marte.  He then made people think he was having a "great" year by padding his stats in the mop-up role.

He converted 6 of 7 saves in April of 2002 as we got out to a 16-10 record(I guess that one BS killed our momentum). He didn't blow another save til May 29th and that one(vs NY) came in the middle of a 7 game losing streak so it was hardly a momentum buster. Oh and btw, 2 weeks later he pitched 3 innings of no hit ball to get the win and avoid a most embarassing sweep at The Shrine but of course we don't count that.

 

And since Koch's '02 11-4 record was brought up it should be pointed out that 5 of those 11 wins came after blown saves and 2 more were after he coughed up bigger non-save leads. Of course since we couldn't score after the 7th inning in '02(and damm little before that either) it would have been pretty hard to win 11 for us.