KW: Anybody know a worse GM?

[SoxFan1]

A review:

 

Debacles:  Ritchie trade, Koch trade

 

Bad:  Wells signing (I don't care if it looked good to fans, he's the GM and should know better), Colon trade, Alomar trade, Everett trade, not signing Gordon

 

Looking bad:  Uribe trade, Maggs re-signing

 

Jury still out:  Garcia trade (will only avoid being a debacle if Sox get to WS)

 

Good deals:  Loaiza, Schoenweiss, re-signing Garcia, Buehrle

 

Maybe I've missed some deals but overall, this guy sucks.

Debacles???? Koch???? Yeah, he sucked but we got 2 good relievers for him!!!!

 

How is the Wells signing bad? At the time, he was the best pitcher available and was going to take this team far. He got hurt? So what...who can stop that??? The Colon trade is the same thing. Who knew that a 20 game winner could flop like a fatass? Alomar and Everett deals = Good. We gave up nothing for something. Where are those prospects now?????? Not in the Majors (except Biddle.) How is the Uribe trade looking bad? He has All-Star numbers and great power and average....AT 2nd Motherf***ing base!! Not Re-signing Maggs? I'll give you that. The jury has closed the case on Garcia. He has been re-signed. OVER.

 

Good Things- Marte trade, Loaiza signing, Garcia trade (and re-signing him), Schoenoweis deal, Shingo signing, Re-Signing Buehrle, NOT trading Garland for Erstad, siginig Ozzie.

 

The only horrible thing was the Ritchie trade.

[ZoomSlowik]

I think the last few games have shown that we desperately need Maggs. When he was healthy, no one else on the team was doing anything. The following numbers are from memory, but I am pretty sure they are accurate. Frank was hitting about .260 with 10 homers, Valentin had just hit homer #9 and was at about .250, Lee was godawful, he was hitting in the high .230's, Konerko was in the .240's without much power. All of these guys started hitting a ton when Maggs got hurt, and it has stopped. I agree that there are probably better ways to spend his $14 mil, but they really need a big stick, and I'm not sure Finely would cut it. Plus I would rather not depend on a 39 year old that has a bad injury history. If we lose Maggs, which I don't want to do because he is my favorite player and can really help our lineup, we should try to get a pitcher and a hitter, maybe something like Vidro and Perez, altough that would probably cost more like $18 mil than the $14 or $15 Maggs would get. I just don't think our O can afford to lose Maggs without putting another solid hitter in there. Konerko, Valentin, and Lee are way to streaky to depend on them carrying the lineup.

[Guest JimH]

i came on this after sox fest and admitted i messed up at soxfest and apoligized about it...my profession does not lend to public speaking and i was nervous and what i wanted to say didnt come out right...now you can keep bringing it up and personally attacking me about it all you want ..i dont care..i did something kenny williams said he would never do just a few weeks ago..and thats apoligize for a mistake..

 

and i dont hate KW as a person since i dont know him but i think he is incompetent as a GM...very incompetent...you think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread..thats great... you have your opinion and i have mine..you share your opinion on KW just as much as i share mine...but i never attacked you personally for your opinions and wont..or anyone else that disagrees with me...

 

i didnt start this topic..just added to it...and how long am i gonna play this one trick pony??...how long are gonna play your one trick pony about how good he is???...i didnt know i needed your permission to post here..

 

if you dont like what i post here is an idea..put me ignore..or dont

WOW, sensitive, sensitive, sensitive.

 

I never said he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, or even implied it. That's another thing I remember you're good at, putting words in my mouth. Don't.

 

You don't need anyone's permission to post here, you know that, and don't imply that I suggested you do.

 

My statements were specifically intended to remind you that this whole topic has been brought up by you COUNTLESS times. You and I went round and around for a week or so, civilly I might add, last winter.

 

At the end of it, you said I'd pointed out all his trades, you'd forgotten many of them, and that I was right about him not ruining the farm system or ruining a potentail dynasty. And here you are again, saying the same stuff. It's your right, but it's my right to tell you it's gotten old ... way old.

 

As for the public speaking bit, I don't mean to make you feel bad about it. It was not a mistake on your part. The mistake was posting ad nauseum about how you were gonna do it for two weeks beforehand. That's what I take issue with guy. Actions first, then speak ... but whatever.

 

You keep saying he's incompetent and then fall back on the same argument I refuted for you. You're still stuck on Foulke/Koch and you're still stuck on "Schueler handed him a division winning team and the #1 farm system, etc.".

Yet you continue to ignore the factors around the personnel of that 2000 team and the complete and utter subjectivity of saying "#1 rated farm system".

 

If you think the only thing I post is how good KW is, may I suggest you made a lot more sense when your computer was broken.

 

Last night you ranted on Carlos Lee ... well, ok, he made an out. And sure enough, what did that drift into? How things have regressed since the magical 2000 season.

 

I don't think there is an ingore feature on this site, could be mistaken.

 

By the way, what Williams did was not apologize for a mistake, he goes out and fixes it. For example, moves out Koch. Actions>words. Good thing he did that before he got asked to resign, huh?

[baggio202]

Baggio and Ozzie...Airdale...

 

Do you guys have any archived posts about the trades when they happened?  I would be interested to know if you liked the trades you are now bashing when they happened.  Cuz, I was thrilled to get the likes of Alomar, Everett, Wells at the time.  Even dumping a middle reliever for a catcher of the future was a good call...there are fewer excellent catchers than there are serviceable middle relievers.  And w/o Olivo, we don't get Ben Davis...i mean Freddy.

 

C'mon, not all trades work out for the best, but you go by what you know.  If you start to overanalyze, someone else is going to slip in and steal that guy.  Make some suggestions and let's see what happens.

from memory..here my thoughts on KW's trades as they happened

 

siro - wells..hated it...i really like siro

 

ritchie..hated it..i was a huge supporter of kip wells..and since sean lowe once left tickets for me at sox park he was definately a favorit of mine...that was his worst trade

 

baldwin trade..hated it..i was a huge fan of james after he pitched injured in the '00 playoffs..in '01 , right before he was traded he won like 4 starts in a row and i was championing we sign him long term..in hindsight, if i was GM i guess that would have been a huge blunder on my part...but i like the idea of rewarding guys with heart like james has..

 

clayton trade..surprisingly..this was the first trade KW made that i agreed with..i thought bringing in clayton would give us more flexibility...my only grip with KW on this one was he waited way too long to rectify the situation...clayton was a clubhouse disaster..he should have been either traded or released after gthe first season..or before

 

canseco move..this was probably KW's classiest move...canseco imo got a raw deal by MLB..

 

colon..was a good deal... 3 replaceable players for an all star that can eat up 240 IP...

 

uribe deal...i like uribe but from day one my beef was we should have kept miles and traded harris to colorado for uribe...im sure they would have taken either guy since neither one did anything at the mlb level...but KW says he was looking for grinders and miles is the prototypical grinder..then he trades him..

 

alomar , garcia , everett..these are deals that were made to help the team win at the time..cant fault those type of deals..i thought we should have been buying in '01...we were like 7 or 8 back at the trade deadline..similiar to st louis...they got woody williams..he went undefeated and they crawled their way back into the playoffs...

 

you know my view on olivo and botch

 

there are others but ill stop at these...

 

williams said just a few weeks ago on radio that he would never apoligize for making a mistake..that says alot about the man imo..a man that cant admit a mistake is bound to keep repeating them...

[southsideirish]

From ESPN.COM:

 

 

Don't underestimate the energy and resourcefulness of GM Kenny Williams.

 

Trade Talks

 

I believe KW is getting a lot of respect nationaly for his moves and his agressiveness.

[Guest JimH]

from memory..here my thoughts on KW's trades as they happened

 

siro - wells..hated it...i really like siro

 

ritchie..hated it..i was a huge supporter of kip wells..and since sean lowe once left tickets for me at sox park he was definately a favorit of mine...that was his worst trade

 

baldwin trade..hated it..i was a huge fan of james after he pitched injured in the '00 playoffs..in '01 , right before he was traded he won like 4 starts in a row and i was championing we sign him long term..in hindsight, if i was GM i guess that would have been a huge blunder on my part...but i like the idea of rewarding guys with heart like james has..

 

clayton trade..surprisingly..this was the first trade KW made that i agreed with..i thought bringing in clayton would give us more flexibility...my only grip with KW on this one was he waited way too long to rectify the situation...clayton was a clubhouse disaster..he should have been either traded or released after gthe first season..or before

 

canseco move..this was probably KW's classiest move...canseco imo got a raw deal by MLB..

 

colon..was a good deal... 3 replaceable players for an all star that can eat up 240 IP...

 

uribe deal...i like uribe but from day one my beef was we should have kept miles and traded harris to colorado for uribe...im sure they would have taken either guy since neither one did anything at the mlb level...but KW says he was looking for grinders and miles is the prototypical grinder..then he trades him..

 

alomar , garcia , everett..these are deals that were made to help the team win at the time..cant fault those type of deals..i thought we should have been buying in '01...we were like 7 or 8 back at the trade deadline..similiar to st louis...they got woody williams..he went undefeated and they crawled their way back into the playoffs...

 

you know my view on olivo and botch

 

there are others but ill stop at these...

 

williams said just a few weeks ago on radio that he would never apoligize for making a mistake..that says alot about the man imo..a man that cant admit a mistake is bound to keep repeating them...

OK, this all becomes clearer to me now.

 

Your loyalty appears to be for individual players vs. the logo on front. At the very least, it colors your judgement, personnel wise.

 

You liked Sirotka. His arm fell off and he hasn't pitched since. The fact that Buehrle credits Wells with helping him mature as a pitcher automatically makes that a win, if one is willing to take the blinders off.

 

Sean Lowe left you tickets. 'Nuff said about that.

 

They should've signed Baldwin to a long term deal ... because of his heart. Never mind he was already having shoulder problems from the past 2-3 seasons, which was no secret to even a casual White Sox fan. That's blind loyalty and bad business. Who gets the credit for not signing Baldwin?

 

Canseco? MLB forced him to take steroids and go to nightclubs and get in fights?

Yeah right.

 

Colorado would have taken Harris? Big assumption on your part. One reason they liked Miles was because 1). he's a switch hitter and 2). the Rockies train in Tucson along with the Sox and Miles had several very good spring games vs. Colorado, three of which I attended by the way. That's what put Miles on the Rockies radar screen, their GM said so after the trade. He said their scouts tracked Miles after the previous spring training. You cannot realistically blame KW for not trading Harris instead of Miles because you ASSUME the Rockies would've taken either one.

 

Lastly ... and MOST important ... you take Williams' apology remarks completely out of context, because it fits into your established perception. I heard the interview too. What he said was he will never apologize for making an aggressive mistake, a mistake made with the intent of making the team better. THAT is what was said. You though, make it out to be a character flaw and paint yourself as being a better person because you will admit a mistake. He was talking about improving the White Sox ... you state it as he was referring to his daily life. Stop spinning things to fit your POV, it's too easy to see through it.

[whitesox61382]

here are some facts on the great kenny williams

 

fact... took over a 95 win team with a payroll not much over 30 million dollars

 

fact...our owner..mr. cheapskate , let williams double the payroll to 60 plus million the very next season..making it the largest payroll in the division..

 

fact...we play and have played in the weakest division in baseball..basically because the other teams in the division are not major market teams...no other division has it this easy..

 

fact..the last two years minnesota has kicked our butts..with a lessor payroll..

 

fact...kenny williams teams have won NOTHING..NADA ..ZIPPO..

 

fact..we have not had a lefty power hitter that has 30 homers since williams took the team over..3 and 1/2 years later unless valentin , who was here when williams got here , continues his career year in homers we still wont have one...opinion..thats the biggest achilles heel on this team..never been addressed...

 

two trades i want to discuss cause i saw some stuff that has me shaking my head

 

the olivo trade ..imo , anyone who thinks we won that trade is in serious denial...bradford has spent the last 3 plus years as the A's set up man helping them to the playoffs in all three years..he's still there...just think to last year...we had marte and gordon in the pen doing a good job and wunsch for half the year...everyone else stunk...billy botch , rick white..omg..you guys dont think chad bradford wouldnt have helped more than miguel olivo??...

 

the billy botch trade..because we got neil botch in that trade it makes a winner for us???... :headshake ...with kieth foulke last year we win the division..probably by 4 or 5 games...but im sure in three years when botch is maybe a halfway decent pitcher and we are at 90 years and counting since winning a world series you can all say i told you so :headshake

 

 

there couldnt have been a better situation for a GM to walk into (except of course the skanks) then the one KW took over...3 plus years later in the weakest division in baseball we no titles to show for it and the largest lead we ever had in the division was 2 1/2 games...but its all ok..just listen to the hawkaroo...it was all jerry manuel's fault

Baggio, everything isn't as black and white as you make it appear. When you grow up and learn to think critically about issues you will understand. The 2000 team was a fluke. It is that simple. As someone else pointed out, look at the rotation from that 2000 team.

 

Sirotka - hasn't pitched 1 inning since the 2000 season

Baldwin - is currently pitching in AAA after struggling in the majors over the past couple of years

Parque - has since retired after getting light up in a few major league apperanced

Eldred - missed almost the entire 2001 and 2002 seasons and is currently a struggling middle reliever for the Cards(5.22 ERA)

Garland - is still with the Sox and has yet to live up to his potential

KWells - is currently struggling with the Pirates

 

Let that sink in for a second. All you have to do is look at that 2000 rotation, look at where those guys are now, and understand that 2000 was a complete fluke.

 

Here are some names from the bullpen that were key in the Sox 2000 playoff season:

 

Howry - has been struggling in the majors and has spent a good portion of time in the minors. does anyone remember the Howry for Gagne rumors that floated around in 2001. imagine if KW would have been able to pull off that deal.

 

Simas - I could swear that I had a Simas siting in the majors although I can't remember for which team. He has either been injuried or in the minors the past couple of seasons.

 

Lowe - Struggled for the Pirated after being traded there and has been in and out of the majors ever since.

 

Barcelo - Injuries have brought an end to his career.

 

Beirne - Who knows what has happened to him.

 

Pena - Haven't seen him in the majors since.

 

Eyre - Has been a decent reliever in for SF over the past couple of years.

 

Biddle - Is currently the worst releiver in the majors

 

Sturtze - Has been one of the worst starters in the majors over the past couple of years.

 

The only pitchers from that bullpen who are still solid major leaguers are:

 

Foulke - was used to acquire Koch and Cotts

Buehrle - KW has locked him up for the next couple of years.

Wunsch - Is still in the Sox orgnazation.

Bradford - Was used to bring Olivo over, who was used to get Garcia

 

KW kept the top offense intact(Konerko, Valentin, Lee, Thomas, and Maggs).

 

How can the Sox be on the verge of a dynasty when the majority of the pitching staff isn't even in the majors today? Have you ever taken this into consideration? To the rational mind it is pretty obvious that the 2000 team was a fluke. Not even the great Billy Beane could have turned the 2001 team into a winner. For the most part KW kept the same team from 2000 in 2001, so how was it his fault that they struggled. Was it his fault that they showed their true selves? RS knew that the 2000 team was a fluke and got out of a sinking ship on a high note. Was it KW fault that injuries hurt the Sox in 2001? Was it KW fault that the #1 ranked minor league system never developed? You need to come to grip with reality and understand that 2000 was a fluke that KW could not help in 2001. He is responsible for putting the talent on the field giving his limited resources, and he has done a good job of that. The payroll did increase in 2001, but that wasn't from KW signing the top FA. It was from internal raises to make sure that the 95 win team stayed in tact. What would you have done different Baggio since you know everything and have the luxery of seeing how things unfolded? KW couldn't tear apart a 95 win team or he would have been run out of town, so tell me what you would have done all great one.

[baggio202]

WOW, sensitive, sensitive, sensitive.

 

I never said he's the greatest thing since sliced bread, or even implied it.  That's another thing I remember you're good at, putting words in my mouth.  Don't.

 

You don't need anyone's permission to post here, you know that, and don't imply that I suggested you do.

 

My statements were specifically intended to remind you that this whole topic has been brought up by you COUNTLESS times.  You and I went round and around for a week or so, civilly I might add, last winter.

 

At the end of it, you said I'd pointed out all his trades, you'd forgotten many of them, and that I was right about him not ruining the farm system or ruining a potentail dynasty.  And here you are again, saying the same stuff.  It's your right, but it's my right to tell you it's gotten old ... way old.

 

As for the public speaking bit, I don't mean to make you feel bad about it.  It was not a mistake on your part.  The mistake was posting ad nauseum about how you were gonna do it for two weeks beforehand.  That's what I take issue with guy.  Actions first, then speak ... but whatever.

 

You keep saying he's incompetent and then fall back on the same argument I refuted for you.  You're still stuck on Foulke/Koch and you're still stuck on "Schueler handed him a division winning team and the #1 farm system, etc.".

Yet you continue to ignore the factors around the personnel of that 2000 team and the complete and utter subjectivity of saying "#1 rated farm system".

 

If you think the only thing I post is how good KW is, may I suggest you made a lot more sense when your computer was broken.

 

Last night you ranted on Carlos Lee ... well, ok, he made an out.  And sure enough, what did that drift into?  How things have regressed since the magical 2000 season.

 

I don't think there is an ingore feature on this site, could be mistaken.

 

By the way, what Williams did was not apologize for a mistake, he goes out and fixes it.  For example, moves out Koch.  Actions>words.  Good thing he did that before he got asked to resign, huh?

why do you insist that i keep bringing it up???... according to you if someone starts a post that talks about KW and i respond in a way that you dont agree with im beating a dead horse...im bringing up the same things over and over again...if thats the case just you responding to the thread makes you guilty of the same thing..i didnt add them up but im guessing you have more responses on this thread than i do

 

you keep saying you refuted my arguements..thats in your mind..perhaps i dont agree with your refutting (is that even a word )...

 

quit trying to be the board police...if you dont like what i post , attack it on merit or dont respond...but you have no right to tell me or anyone else what they can or can not post...taking personal shots at me is not gonna stop me from posting my opinions..so if it bothers you this much then just dont read them....

 

and again..yeah i screwed up at soxfest..wish i could go back in time and fix it but i cant ...and im sure you will remind me of that for years to come..

 

anyways..im gonna drop this arguement here...go ahead and respond if you feel like it and ill leave it at that...peace

[Ozzietheairedale]

Gordon-too old. Politte is much better.

 

.

This is getting ridiculous.

 

Politte (2004): 0-2 4.20 ERA

Gordon(2004): 2-3 1.66 ERA

 

[southsideirish]

Not only was 2000 a fluke, but the entire rotation and majority of the bullpen were injured the following year. Not to mention Frank Thomas as well. How are you supposed to compete when that happens? It was amazing that we could even have a winning season in 2001 with all of those key injuries.

[Guest JimH]

Great post whitesox68113.

 

Forget it though ... logic of that sort has been presented to baggio several times.

 

It's possible he'll come back and say "hey, you know, you're right, I hadn't looked at it that way" (since this happened once before).

 

But, the etch-a-sketch memory will lead him to post the exact same sentiments, usually a few months later.

 

FACT: Sean Lowe left him tickets. Bad move by KW to trade Sean Lowe. Resign KW, resign! Boooooo!!

[Ozzietheairedale]

Uribe also plays three positions for us, above average, might I add.  Miles plays one.  Uribe is the reason why we won so many games early on.  Meanwhile, Miles was sent down because he couldn't hit at Coors.

 

Give it some time, buddy... 

Give it some time!!??

 

At the current rate, Uribe will be hitting below the Mendoza line by August 1 and Miles will be hitting over .400!

 

Shot!! and a goal!!

[aboz56]

Great post whitesox68113.

 

Forget it though ... logic of that sort has been presented to baggio several times.

 

It's possible he'll come back and say "hey, you know, you're right, I hadn't looked at it that way" (since this happened once before).

 

But, the etch-a-sketch memory will lead him to post the exact same sentiments, usually a few months later.

 

FACT:  Sean Lowe left him tickets.  Bad move by KW to trade Sean Lowe.  Resign KW, resign!  Boooooo!!

Sean Lowe....

 

He probably left tickets because no one else wanted to come watch him play.

[southsider2k5]

Give it some time!!??

 

At the current rate, Uribe will be hitting below the Mendoza line by August 1 and Miles will be hitting over .400!

 

Shot!! and a goal!!

Are you kidding? Do you really think that both trends will continue indefinately? Now that is funny.

[JoshPR]

At the current rate, Uribe will be hitting below the Mendoza line by August 1 and Miles will be hitting over .400!

Yeah and I'll be having a threesome with Brooke Burke and Jessica Alba

[LDF]

Here is the 3rd time I am making this list for all to see.

 

trades trades. decision

 

Royce Clayton and his 5 mil contract A. Myatte(sp) Lost, I would have had the minor leaguer sox lost money for 3 yrs at least and the cancer in the dug out.

 

Julio raminez Jeff Abbott At the time jeff was on the major league roster, lost the trade

 

D wells M stiro Even out, except that b/c of the rap that kw got, he lost out

 

Signing baines n/a Did he really help? Sox lost money

 

Mike Williams Matt dewitt Sox won the trade, b/c didn’t mike pitch in the majors and matt never made it?

 

a. osanu Gary majic or something Sox won the trade

 

Berry, baldwin Berry and gary majic or something Lost even more b/c he screwed up, laughing stock, sox lost the trade, but i still still think at the time baldwin should have stayed a sox.

 

a. embree d. hassellholf Did embree really do anything for the sox?? Sox won the trade by default.

 

??? Brook Fordyce Sox lost the trade

 

Signing of jose canseco n/a Sox won by default?

 

Signing howry to a contract extension, multi mil one at that Sox lost money

 

Bill Pulsipher off waivers n/a Sox won

 

Player to be name later perry Sox lost the trade

 

B simmons and r kohlmeir off waivers n/a Never amounted to anything

 

Shaffer and bilowski 2 minors Who cares….. never amounted to anything

 

Kipper Todd Ritchie Sox lost the trade to put it mildly.

 

Almost trade ernstd For chirs singleton and jon garland The sox won by not doing the trade.

 

Willie harris Chris Singleton Sox lost trade

 

Signing Kenny lofton n/a At the time sox lost for now,

 

Damaso Marte For matt guierre Sox won

 

Franklin Francisco and Byeong An howry Sox won

 

E Pacheco s. alomar Sox lost

 

F diaz and r meaux k. lofton So far a win for the sox. But lofton did good in the playoff.

 

J Adkins R durham Sox lost the trade.

 

D'Angelo Jimenez Alex Fernandez and catcher Humberto Quintero Even trade? considering the he was a cancer, sox lost in addition isn’t humberto turning into a nice prospect?

 

Clayton is release on waivers Sox won, should have happen sooner.

 

Resign sandy alomar Sox won not having to give anything up.

 

Koch and cotts Foulke Sox lost trade period.

 

Koch sign an extension for 5.25 mil for 2 yrs

 

Colon i forgot I will still say the sox won this trade even tho the reliever wounded up with 30 something saves for the expos.

 

Sox sign 7 players the only one of importance is Esteban Loaiza Sox won

 

Sign rick white and tom Gordon Sox won on one and lost money on the other

 

Sign a rios Sox lost money

 

Carl Everett Francisco, rupe and webster I never did like this trade, sox lost.

 

R alomar Ring, almonte, savlio Sox won the trade imho.

 

Sullivan Cash I like this trade, sox won.

 

Brian Daubach ??? Sox got him, but he was a waste in mho

 

Daubach was release Cash was lost, who cares

 

Uribe Aron miles At first I thought sox lost, but I was wrong

 

 

 

This was semi complete list of transactions until the beginning of 2004. Of the major trades, the sox lost in those trades, in major signing, the sox won the majority of those. Still the major trade is were they hurt the sox the most. The likes of clayton, Ritchie, durham, Baldwin, brooks Fordyce, foulke, Everett were and are the major trades in which sox and kw lost. Colon, alomar, uribe, and lofton are the major trades in which the sox won. I won’t go into the minor trades and signing.

[southsideirish]

This is getting ridiculous.

 

Politte (2004):  0-2  4.20 ERA

Gordon(2004): 2-3  1.66 ERA

 

Now that is ridiculous! Shingo, not Politte, was signed to replace Gordon. KW said that himself. If Gordon was resigned we would not have signed Shingo. Would you like to compare those two?

 

Shingo

 

W 4

L 1

SV 3

Blown Saves 0

BAA .157

WHIP 0.82

ERA 1.42

 

Flash

 

W 2

L 3

Sv 2

Blown Saves 2

BAA .160

WHIP 0.84

ERA 1.66

 

Gordon is not as good as Shingo and we saved almost 3 million dollars. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[Guest JimH]

why do you insist that i keep bringing it up???... according to you if someone starts a post that talks about KW and i respond in a way that you dont agree with im beating a dead horse...im bringing up the same things over and over again...if thats the case just you responding to the thread makes you guilty of the same thing..i didnt add them up but im guessing you have more responses on this thread than i do

 

you keep saying you refuted my arguements..thats in your mind..perhaps i dont agree with your refutting (is that even a word )...

 

quit trying to be the board police...if you dont like what i post , attack it on merit or dont respond...but you have no right to tell me or anyone else what they can or can not post...taking personal shots at me is not gonna stop me from posting my opinions..so if it bothers you this much then just dont read them....

 

and again..yeah i screwed up at soxfest..wish i could go back in time and fix it but i cant ...and im sure you will remind me of that for years to come..

 

anyways..im gonna drop this arguement here...go ahead and respond if you feel like it and ill leave it at that...peace

Everybody else seems to be saying a lot of the same things as me, baggio. Doesn't make us right and you wrong, but your "KW broke up a dynasty" boat has sprung yet another leak.

 

You agreed with me refuting your argument this past winter, like you, I don't feel like proving it to you again.

 

Board police? What are you talking about? Go ahead and post whatever you want. If I think it's baseless or drivel, I'll say so. Okay? That's called responding based on merit. If I think you have a personal agenda based on non-baseball issues (i.e. Sean Lowe left you tickets, didn't like Lowe being traded), I'll say so. I'm debating baseball here. I don't care if Sean Lowe did or didn't leave me tickets.

 

I could care less if you screwed up at SoxFest. Again, I don't care. I found it humorous you yakked about it beforehand though ... just a credibility issue IMO. That was the point of me bringing it up.

[whitesox61382]

Uribe (2004):  .282 Avg, .306 OBP,  .229 in last 30 days

 

Miles (2004): .326 Avg, .355 OBP,  .358 in last 30 days

 

'nuff said, hockey puck.

Will you guys stop saying that Miles is better than Uribe? Miles is a nice player to have and you have to love his hussle, but the fact of the matter is that he isn't that good. You first need to take into consideration the park they play in. Not only is Coors friendly to the HR, but its spacious outfield is also friendly to singles hitters. Miles average is very good at .326(thank Coors for some of that), but if you look past that you will see that he isn't very good. He has almost no power(13 extra base hits in 233 AB's is down right terrible in a place like Coors). He has no plate disipline(11 BB in 233 AB's is down right terrible in general). He has almost no speed for a middle infielder(4 SB in 7 attempts). He is also a liability defensive with almost no range at 2B(he would probably be a DH in the AL). So while the average is good(boosted by Coors), he is below average in every other catogory. Uribe is better in every catogory except average, since he is 3 years young, and has much more talent, his upside is far greater than Miles. Those are the facts.

[aboz56]

Willie harris Chris Singleton Sox lost trade

 

E Pacheco s. alomar Sox lost

 

J Adkins R durham Sox lost the trade.

Here are the ones that you are wrong on, just so you know.

 

Chris Singleton isn't and won't do anything in the bigs anymore and Harris has a chance to be a solid player for a long time.

 

We got Alomar back, so I don't see how we lost by getting Pachecho. He could be an asset to our bullpen as early as next season. This was a case where KW dealt Alomar knowing he would most likely come back and we were out of the division, so it didn't matter. We got a free prospect.

 

And again, Durham was leaving, we weren't going to offer arbitration, so we got Adkins, who is now in our bullpen. While it wasn't viewed as being good at the time, it is not clearly a "loss" for the Sox. Durham hasn't done a damn thing in a few years.

[southsideirish]

Here is the 3rd time I am making this list for all to see.

 

trades  trades. decision

 

Royce Clayton and his 5 mil contract A. Myatte(sp) Lost, I would have had the minor leaguer sox lost money for 3 yrs at least and the cancer in the dug out.

 

Julio raminez Jeff Abbott At the time jeff was on the major league roster, lost the trade

 

D wells M stiro Even out, except that b/c of the rap that kw got, he lost out

 

Signing baines n/a Did he really help? Sox lost money

 

Mike Williams  Matt dewitt    Sox won the trade, b/c didn’t mike pitch in the majors and matt never made it?

 

a. osanu Gary majic or something Sox won the trade

 

Berry, baldwin Berry and gary majic or something Lost even more b/c he screwed up, laughing stock, sox lost the trade, but i still still think at the time baldwin should have stayed a sox.

 

a. embree d. hassellholf Did embree really do anything for the sox?? Sox won the trade by default.

 

??? Brook Fordyce Sox lost the trade

 

Signing of jose canseco n/a Sox won by default?

 

Signing howry to a contract extension, multi mil one at that  Sox lost money

 

Bill Pulsipher off waivers n/a Sox won

 

Player to be name later perry Sox lost the trade

 

B simmons and r kohlmeir  off waivers n/a Never amounted to anything

 

Shaffer and bilowski  2 minors Who cares….. never amounted to anything

 

Kipper Todd Ritchie Sox lost the trade to put it mildly.

 

Almost trade ernstd For chirs singleton and jon garland The sox won by not doing the trade.

 

Willie harris Chris Singleton Sox lost trade

 

Signing Kenny lofton n/a At the time sox lost for now,

 

Damaso Marte For matt guierre Sox won

 

Franklin Francisco and Byeong An howry Sox won

 

E Pacheco s. alomar Sox lost

 

F diaz and r meaux k. lofton So far a win for the sox. But lofton did good in the playoff.

 

J Adkins R durham Sox lost the trade.

 

D'Angelo Jimenez Alex Fernandez and catcher Humberto Quintero Even trade? considering the he was a cancer, sox lost in addition isn’t humberto turning into a nice prospect?

 

Clayton is release on waivers  Sox won, should have happen sooner.

 

Resign sandy alomar  Sox won not having to give anything up.

 

Koch and cotts  Foulke Sox lost trade period.

 

Koch sign an extension for 5.25 mil for 2 yrs

 

Colon  i forgot I will still say the sox won this trade even tho the reliever wounded up with 30 something saves for the expos.

 

Sox sign 7 players the only one of importance is Esteban Loaiza  Sox won

 

Sign rick white and tom Gordon  Sox won on one and lost money on the other

 

Sign a rios  Sox lost money

 

Carl Everett Francisco, rupe and webster I never did like this trade, sox lost.

 

R alomar Ring, almonte, savlio Sox won the trade imho.

 

Sullivan Cash I like this trade, sox won.

 

Brian Daubach ??? Sox got him, but he was a waste in mho

 

Daubach was release  Cash was lost, who cares

 

Uribe Aron miles At first I thought sox lost, but I was wrong

 

 

 

This was semi complete list of transactions until the beginning of 2004. Of the major trades, the sox lost in those trades, in major signing, the sox won the majority of those. Still the major trade is were they hurt the sox the most. The likes of clayton, Ritchie, durham, Baldwin, brooks Fordyce, foulke, Everett were and are the major trades in which sox and kw lost. Colon, alomar, uribe, and lofton are the major trades in which the sox won. I won’t go into the minor trades and signing.

Your perception is skewed because you must not like Kenny. Some of those trades you consider lost were either wins or washes. Pacheco for Alomar is a loss? We got Sandy back the next year and got Pacheco in return. We got something for nothing and lost? How? Julio Ramirez for Jeff Abbott a loss? Neither has done anything in the majors? How is that a loss? That is a wash. Just a couple of examples. Very skewed in my opinion.

[southsideirish]

Will you guys stop saying that Miles is better than Uribe? Miles is a nice player to have and you have to love his hussle, but the fact of the matter is that he isn't that good. You first need to take into consideration the park they play in. Not only is Coors friendly to the HR, but its spacious outfield is also friendly to singles hitters. Miles average is very good at .326(thank Coors for some of that), but if you look past that you will see that he isn't very good. He has almost no power(13 extra base hits in 233 AB's is down right terrible in a place like Coors). He has no plate disipline(11 BB in 233 AB's is down right terrible in general). He has almost no speed for a middle infielder(4 SB in 7 attempts). He is also a liability defensive with almost no range at 2B(he would probably be a DH in the AL). So while the average is good(boosted by Coors), he is below average in every other catogory. Uribe is better in every catogory except average, since he is 3 years young, and has much more talent, his upside is far greater than Miles. Those are the facts.

Not to mention Uribe is 3 years younger.

[LDF]

when i am talking about trades, i am talking about them at the time of the deal, not in hindsight. if you noticed i mention that the alomar deal in resigning them was a good move.

 

ref to durham, we got nothing compared to who we gave up arbition or fa, we still could have done better in recieving a draft pick.

 

ref to aboz, singleton has batted 280+ in 2 of the last 3 yrs and harris is part timer at best. durham help the "A" in the playoff that yr. and was on the major roster last yr whereas adkins didn't make it until the end of last yr.

[supersuicidedoll]

Bavasi has been pretty bad.

 

Signing aurilla, speizio

 

Although the Freddy trade was pretty good.

[aboz56]

when i am talking about trades, i am talking about them at the time of the deal, not in hindsight. if you noticed i mention that the alomar deal in resigning them was a good move.

 

ref to durham, we got nothing compared to who we gave up arbition or fa, we still could have done better in recieving a draft pick.

 

ref to aboz, singleton has batted 280+ in 2 of the last 3 yrs and harris is part timer at best. durham help the "A" in the playoff that yr. and was on the major roster last yr whereas adkins didn't make it until the end of last yr.

Durham helped them do what, get beat again in the first round?

 

Again, I could care less about Chris Singleton, we were going to play Rowand anyhow, so we went younger and got a prospect. Fact is we didn't need him, except for the Bible study he did before the game.