Ozzie's managing

[fathom]

Today's game was a great example of why Ozzie needs to be little more instinctive during the games with his pitchers. Loaiza was not fooling anyone today, as is evident by retiring 16 batters and giving up 13 hits. Loaiza also struggled mightily against the Angels 8-9-1-2 hitters. Therefore, why Ozzie didnt' have anyone warming up in the 6th in case Loaiza got in trouble is bad managing. The Angels are not the team to fall behind by more than one or two runs heading into the late innings. They have a terrific bullpen, and add that to the Sox hitting slump, makes a 3 run deficit hard to overcome. Also, why didnt Ozzie bring in Cotts to face Anderson instead of Cliffy?

[fathom]

LIke I said, hard to score 3 runs off of Angels bullpen. Way to go Timo and Willie!

[BrandoFan]

He is your typical rookie manager, for better or for worse.

 

No Thomas.

No Ordonez.

 

Take Anderson and Guerrero (their Thomas and Ordonez) out of the Angels' line-up and see what happens. Suddenly Guillen and Devanon (their Konerko and Lee) won't be as effective, either.

 

What can he do when Cotts and Jackson are walkng BP machines when the game is even remotely on the line?

 

What can he do when all Uribe and Valentin want to do is hit a towering (apparently, a line drive kind is for commies only) HR to LF and RF respectively? Bench them? Who do you put in their place, Valdez and Nelson?

 

What can he do when his ace, Loaiza, is terrible - as he has been in his last 4 starts?

 

Can he make Burke, Gload and Davis into major-leaguers when they're not?

 

Maybe he could hit for Willie, the guy who's called upon to be what Durham was for the 2000 team? Could he pitch for Diaz while he's at it?

 

When players are healthy and performing to their abilities, THEN we can pick apart Ozzie's on-field decisions. Until then, Ozzie is just along for the ride.

[maggliopipe]

Of course they're also missing a major cog in their lineup in Glaus.

[kapkomet]

I agree with most of what you say, but I don't agree with the part of "players playing up to their potential". The manager is supposed to *help* make that happen. If Ozzie is along for the ride, he's not doing his job.

[Wedge]

I think Ozzie's done a good job so far as the manager. The weakness of the bullpen really handcuffs him.

 

If we had 2000's bullpen and this year's starters... that'd be scary.

[BrandoFan]

I agree with most of what you say, but I don't agree with the part of "players playing up to their potential".  The manager is supposed to *help* make that happen.

And how the F is he supposed to do THAT?

 

Valentin has stuck to switch-hitting 3 years past the point of futulity. Do you think at the age of 34 he is going to listen to Ozzie, level his swing and start hitting to all fields? Come on now, Lou Piniella couldn't make him do what he doesn't want to do. He'd bench him, sure, but it would accoplish nothing.

 

Burke, Gload, Davis are not ML starting material, should Ozzie pull a magic wand out of his ass and make them more talented? Cotts can't get a breaking ball over. Jackson has no fastball. Politte has been horrible for a while, too. What do you want Ozzie to do about it?

 

Uribe's approach is a mess as well - Ozzie could always bench him, but who's gonna play in his place?

 

Crede just sucks - good, earnest guy but his mechanics and batspeed are just not there.

 

And Willie....And Loaiza....

 

Jerry Manuel couldn't motivate his way out of a paper bag skin color test....But I've always thought he got TOO much flak and his PLAYERS got too little - they were the selfish choke-meisters, they were the ones losing all those imporant games in 2002 and 2003, remember?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Ozzie is far from blameless. But there is only so much he could do right now.

 

Nothing was clicking last week. Starting pitching? Horrid. Relief? Mediocre. Offense? Bad.

 

Against Cubs and Angels? That s*** won't fly against Devil Rays on most nights.

[SoxFan1]

You guys always find something negative about something. We just won the f***ing game. A win is a win, no matter how ugly it is, no matter how long it is, no matter how one-sided it is....it's a f***ing win. Now, can we take this and make it positive. The bullpen did great, we showed we can STILL comeback to win games, and PK is f***ing awesome!!!!!

[kapkomet]

And how the F is he supposed to do THAT?

 

Valentin has stuck to switch-hitting 3 years past the point of futulity. Do you think at the age of 34 he is going to listen to Ozzie, level his swing and start hitting to all fields? Come on now, Lou Piniella couldn't make him do what he doesn't want to do. He'd bench him, sure, but it would accoplish nothing.

 

Burke, Gload, Davis are not ML starting material, should Ozzie pull the magic wand out of his ass and make them more talented?    Cotts can't get a breaking ball over. Jackson has no fastball. What do you want Ozzie to do?

 

Uribe's approach is a mess as well - Ozzie could always bench him, but who's gonna play in his place?

 

Crede just sucks - good, earnest guy but his mechanics and batspeed are just not there.

 

And Willie....And Loaiza....

 

Jerry Manuel couldn't motivate his way out of a paper bag skin color test....But I've always thought he got TOO much flak and his PLAYERS got too little - they were the selfish choke-meisters, remember?

 

Don't get me wrong, I agree that Ozzie is far from blameless. But there is only so much he could do right now. Nothig was clicking in the last week.  Starting pitching? Horrid. Relief?  Mediocre. Offense?  Bad.    Against Cubs and Angels? That s*** won't fly against Devil Rays on most nights.

I hear ya.

 

But consider this. Why did the Yankmee$, with tons of talent, not get the most out of the players there until Torre arrived?

 

What about Texas? If I put the lineups of the Sox against the lineup of the Rangers on most nights, the Rangers lose head to head. And don't even get me started about the pitching - the Sox kick ass compared to the Rangers.

 

But the manager here gets the most out of his players. He makes them want to achieve more then they ever would in another setting. These boys have a confidence about them that no matter what situation they are faced with, they are going to win. Now granted, I don't get to watch every Sox game , but what I do see, I see the same underachieving BS. Why don't these guys down here "underachieve"? Because it's not tolerated. There's been some dumbass things in the last couple of Sox games I've watched (didn't see today of course), because it's tolerated.

 

I don't give a rats ass about Jose V - if he's swining the bat like it's a 6,000 lb. weight up there and he's 34, grab some bench. It shouldn't be, "oh well, he's just that way, it's his best" and I see some of that in the Sox.

 

Let me say that it's not near as bad this year, but there is still symptoms. And to get to the next step, they need to kick the bad habits to the curb, and that is what Ozzie is supposed to help them through, vets or kids.

[BrandoFan]

I hear ya.

 

But consider this.  Why did the Yankmee$, with tons of talent, not get the most out of the players there until Torre arrived?

 

What about Texas?  If I put the lineups of the Sox against the lineup of the Rangers on most nights, the Rangers lose head to head.  And don't even get me started about the pitching - the Sox kick ass compared to the Rangers.

 

But the manager here gets the most out of his players.  He makes them want to achieve more then they ever would in another setting.  These boys have a confidence about them that no matter what situation they are faced with, they are going to win.  Now granted, I don't get to watch every Sox game  , but what I do see, I see the same underachieving BS.  Why don't these guys down here "underachieve"?  Because it's not tolerated.  There's been some dumbass things in the last couple of Sox games I've watched (didn't see today of course), because it's tolerated. 

 

I don't give a rats ass about Jose V - if he's swining the bat like it's a 6,000 lb. weight up there and he's 34, grab some bench.  It shouldn't be, "oh well, he's just that way, it's his best" and I see some of that in the Sox.

 

Let me say that it's not near as bad this year, but there is still symptoms.  And to get to the next step, they need to kick the bad habits to the curb, and that is what Ozzie is supposed to help them through, vets or kids.

Yankees are Yankees. Superior talent and a ton of experience. They were bad earlier this year, but then A-Rod, Jeter, Sheffield, Matsui, Williams, Mussina, Contreras remembered who they are and righted the ship. Torre had very little to do with it. And Ozzie in his 1st year ain't Torre.

 

Texas? They are more talented than you give them credit for. And it goes back to Sox players not doing their job. If I didn't see this s*** under Manuel, then I MIGHT blame Ozzie a little more....but I AM recognizing the old sins of 2002-2003, and because of that I simply cannot lay the players' or GM's or owner's failures on Ozzie.

 

How do you propose Ozzie goes about "not tolerating it"? Pull a Larry Bova? Have you seen what that "hard-ass motivator"'s 100-win talent team is doing this year?

 

Even mired in a huge slump, Valentin still has an 850+ OPS, with high clutch indicators ('Close and Late' OPS, etc), still-quality baserunning and as always underrated D. Furthermore, he is one of the few Sox players who actually hits RHP well - and in the playoffs, you'll be going up against Hudson, Mussina, Vasquez, Brown, Pedro, Wakefield, Shilling, Harden.............Ok, so you bench him. Put newly acquired Valdez dude in his place. He'll give you a 650-675 OPS, average clutch numbers and will be a wash on the pads and only a slight upgrade defensively. Is your team better off?

 

Same goes for many other players not named Valentin as well.

 

Ozzie's hands are tied, plain and simple.

 

And yes, it sucks that Lou Piniella is able to squeeze so much out of the D-Rays or the Millwakee guy - out of his Brewers. But Sox are Sox.

[kapkomet]

But "Sox are Sox"... and you say that Ozzie's hands are tied? Where did this attitude start? 2002-2003?

 

I'm not saying bench Jose forever, but sometimes veterans need a wake up call. Not a hard ass, necessarily, but hey, I'm giving someone else the chance, go out there and kick someone's ass tomorrow.

 

Where that can backfire is someone like Nomah... obviously hard-ass ain't working with him, nor will it every player. But when you're wallowing in a 5 game losing streak or longer, you have to start kicking ass where appropriate. At that point, you can lose the ship in a damn hurry.

 

So to take another angle, what does a manager do? I just don't buy your he's along for the ride. I agree with you in that he's dealt the cards he's given, but sometimes, you have to shuffle the deck. If you don't, you're not managing. Equate that to business. I have to shift things around in my department all the time, depending on people's talents. That's how you succeed. If I didn't do that and just went along for the ride, I lose respect, and I get fired. Same thing happens in the game of baseball.

 

I just have a hard time stomaching "he can't do anything".

[BrandoFan]

Ok, maybe "he can't do anything" was the wrong way of putting it.

 

"There is not much he can do, really" sounds better.

 

Until Frank, Maggs are back and swinging their best......until Freddy and Loaiza pitch like front-line pitchers are supposed to, and Garland grows a pair.....and until 1 of Willie/Uribe/Crede has a big-time light-bulb go off in his head..........Ozzie will look like a bad manager.

[kapkomet]

Now I'm with ya. And I think it's possible. I agree 100% that all of Ozzie's tools to win are unavailable. Let's see what 3 days off brings...

[hammerhead johnson]

There is no way in hell that fathom is a Sox fan.

 

When we start winning again, you won't hear from him.

[fathom]

Thanks Hammerhead for pointing out that I'm not a Sox fan cause I think Ozzie handled the pitching situation terrible today. I guess I should be happy that he played not to lose by letting Loaiza get shelled before he finally took him out. Thankfully, the Sox came back to win today. Loaiza's era is now 4.77 and going up. Maybe pitching him 115 pitches every game in April and May was not the smartest idea. Just look at his K/9 ip rate from last year to this year. It's staggering the difference.

[BrandoFan]

So to take another angle, what does a manager do? I just don't buy your he's along for the ride. I agree with you in that he's dealt the cards he's given, but sometimes, you have to shuffle the deck. If you don't, you're not managing

He has shuffled the proverbial deck many times over.

 

Sat Valentin - Uribe went 0-for 4.

Sat Perez - Gload killed the team with his glove and his bat

Sat Uribe and Crede - Willie went 2 for 30 and Valentin - 3 for 16

Sat Alomar - Burke and Davis are 1 for 18

Sat Rowand - Timo goes 2 for 15

Thomas goes 3 for 20-whatever out of the blue.

No Maggs.

 

Loaiza's last 4 starts? Brutal. Replace him with Rauch?

Buerhle totally bombs against Montreal an Tribe? Grilli?

Garland ERA reaches 4.80 before the last start? Yofu?

Freddy's ERA is 6.00+ as a Sox? Stewart?

Diaz and Munoz are batting practice. Honel?

 

What other changes can he make that will transform this team from losers to winners?

[YASNY]

From what I understand, Ozzie was really going to chew some ass before they came back and won that game. In fact, he went off on them in the dugout. He did say that they lehargy they have shown recently will not be tolerated, as it has been in the past.

[southsider2k5]

From what I understand, Ozzie was really going to chew some ass before they came back and won that game.  In fact, he went off on them in the dugout.  He did say that they lehargy they have shown recently will not be tolerated, as it has been in the past.

ANd supposedly did light a fire under their asses in the 5th or 6th inning. I guess PK was quoted as saying something to the effect of he couldn't even repeat the first two lines of what Ozzie said.

[Wedge]

The thing that's been good about Ozzie is that everytime it seems like the guys are in a must-win situation, they do.

 

During Manual's years, I'd always have the feeling that "this is a big game and they need to win it to get on track," but they'd always lose. It seems like this year they manage to win the games that I get that feeling about.

 

I think Ozzie says stuff and the players respond. That's as much as you can hope for from a manager.

[YASNY]

ANd supposedly did light a fire under their asses in the 5th or 6th inning.  I guess PK was quoted as saying something to the effect of he couldn't even repeat the first two lines of what Ozzie said.

Ozzie could be talking about thew weather, and they wouldn't be able to print it.

[thelatinoheat_30]

i agree we shoulda brought in cotts to face anderson instead of politte, when he eventually faced him later, he struck him out. i think ozzie is worse at strategy than manuel was, it's pretty easy, lefty vs. lefty. and why can't our catchers hold onto the ball w/ a play @ the plate?

[YASNY]

i agree we shoulda brought in cotts to face anderson instead of politte, when he eventually faced him later, he struck him out.  i think ozzie is worse at strategy than manuel was, it's pretty easy, lefty vs. lefty.  and why can't our catchers hold onto the ball w/ a play @ the plate?

Politte, lately, has been much more effective than Cotts. Plus, that single he gave up wasn't exactly smoked. It just had eyes.