southsideirish Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I would say that a "Japanese Gong" has plenty to do with Japan. We are not all idiot Americans. Speak for yourself. A gong may have orginanted with Chinese, but it was adapted by Japan and linking it to them is not in any way erroneous. The Japanese gong was introduced during the Heian Period (794-1185). The gong was one of the main percussion instruments used during songs, dances and court music. Percussion instruments like the gong were also used in Buddhist ceremonies and processions. Even though the rhythm of court music was different than the Buddhist music. The Buddhist had percussion richness in their life and ceremonies. http://www.musicinventions.org/shepherd2/kyle.htm This whole thing is stupid. A statement or action shouldn't be wrong or insulting to one race and perfectly acceptable if it's regarding another race just because the latter race isn't a minority. That is hypocricy plain and simple. If you think it's wrong to hear a gong....then you should think it's wrong to hear bagpipes for a scot and think it's wrong to hear godfather music for an Italian. But the fact is when you put it in that perspective...you realize it is ludicrous. That should be the end of the argument.... It's gettin to the point where if something is attributed to a specific race...it can't even be mentioned any more. That is how overly sensitive we are now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I would not go as far as to say it is not traditional. It is part of their culture so I can not see how it can not fit in with Shingo coming out. Even if it is not considered traditional, does it have to be? By the way it has a lot more to do with the Japanese culture and tradition than the "Fender Mustang." You're right, it can't be argued that the gong is certainly present in Japanese society. I think particularly with regard to Buddhism and Shinto, ceremonial gongs are very visible. Again though, Buddhism came to Japan by way of China, and as such so would the ceremonial instruments. Mostly my original post was to turn the tables on stereotypes... we use them to caricature a race we don't know much about, and usually the fact that we get the stereotype wrong says more about us as lazy thinkers than about the ethnic target of our jabs. I used to like it when Mike Meyers' "All things Scottish" character would go into a rage when someone incorrectly applied Irish stereotypes to the Scotts. And I'm sure Shingo and most Japanese and Japanese Americans just chuckle at us when we get it similarly wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 For the most part, in traditional Japanese music performance, that is correct. Biwa, shakuhachi, koto, and shamisen are the traditional instruments of Kabuki theater, and have been since the Edo period. Pre Edo musical theater - Noh, Sarugaku, etc., also did not use gongs as traditioanl instruments. In the modern world, of course, there is lots of cross-pollination. New Age "genius" Kitaro has a gong on the cover of his Silk Road album and uses it in his recordings (also uses western guitars and synthesizers, so not exactly traditional). My fave japanese girl band of all time Shonen Knife uses western instruments 0 electric guitars, trap eset drums, synths, etc., but they're hardly traditional. The gong is not a traditional Japanese instruments any more than a Fender Mustang is. The gong is not a traditional Japanese instruments any more than a Fender Mustang is. Heian Period (794-1185). How much more traditional does it have to get??? Are we talking like BC here or what?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 To bad the both of you would be incorrect. The Gong was used by the Japanese Samuri. That is traditional enough for you? Are the Japanese Samuri not part of Japanese tradition or culture? Give me a break. I don't care what they use in their music. This has nothing to do with music. It has to do with tradition and culture and what we associate with that. Again, that's the Buddhist origin. And you are correct and I said as much in the previous post. The initial blanket statement that a gong is a Japanese instrument is what was initially questioned, because it's origins are SE Asian yes, but NOT Japanese. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 You're right, it can't be argued that the gong is certainly present in Japanese society. I think particularly with regard to Buddhism and Shinto, ceremonial gongs are very visible. Again though, Buddhism came to Japan by way of China, and as such so would the ceremonial instruments. Mostly my original post was to turn the tables on stereotypes... we use them to caricature a race we don't know much about, and usually the fact that we get the stereotype wrong says more about us as lazy thinkers than about the ethnic target of our jabs. I used to like it when Mike Meyers' "All things Scottish" character would go into a rage when someone incorrectly applied Irish stereotypes to the Scotts. And I'm sure Shingo and most Japanese and Japanese Americans just chuckle at us when we get it similarly wrong. You may have attempted to do that, but everything you said in that statement was false. You said how about forgetting about being "politically correct" lets just try to be "correct." It was correct to associate a gong with the Japanese. You said it wasn't. That is all I got out of your statements. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Again, that's the Buddhist origin. And you are correct and I said as much in the previous post. The initial blanket statement that a gong is a Japanese instrument is what was initially questioned, because it's origins are SE Asian yes, but NOT Japanese. You said Japanese tradition, not Japanese musical tradition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Ok girls... how about we move on...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Heian Period (794-1185). How much more traditional does it have to get??? Are we talking like BC here or what?? For the origin of the instrument, yes, BC. At least to the 5th century BC. I'm not any kind of authority on Japanese musical history by any stretch – I've done some Kabuki theater, learned a little koto and done tea ceremonies. I have read authors that dismiss the claims that gongs are native Japanese instruments and was trying to condense same here. Think of how prevalent the bouzouki is in modern Irish folk music (for anyone into Irish folk music). It's a Greek instrument, but has found a home in Irish folk groups. But for someone to jump up and use a bouzouki reference as a stereotypical jab or craicature of Irish music would be uninformed. Ullean pipes, standing harp, bourhan, all of those are of Irish origin and better examples if we cared to get it right. Even highland bagpipes so prevalant in St. Paddy parades are less than traditional Irish – but they're louder than Ullean pipes and make better parade instruments... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Ok girls... how about we move on...? Come on thread Nazi, these threads always crack me up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goober Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 let's start talking about Godzilla again. I had one of the movies on tape and it was a good movie. but i dont know where it is now. :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 You may have attempted to do that, but everything you said in that statement was false. You said how about forgetting about being "politically correct" lets just try to be "correct." It was correct to associate a gong with the Japanese. You said it wasn't. That is all I got out of your statements. Chaos' initial statement (not necessarily singling anyone out) was something along the lines of 'The gong is Japanese, Shingo is Japanese.' By way of counter argument I pointed out that the instrument in fact originated elsewhere but it's a recognizable Asian icon so we use it as an audio punchline to Asian stereotypes. That is all. And, you are presenting yet more counter argument that maybe the gong is not such a bad choice - not Japanese by design, but by societal assimilation. I concede that point, and actually enjoyed the exchange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Queen Prawn Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Think of how prevalent the bouzouki is in modern Irish folk music (for anyone into Irish folk music). It's a Greek instrument, but has found a home in Irish folk groups. But for someone to jump up and use a bouzouki reference as a stereotypical jab or craicature of Irish music would be uninformed. Ullean pipes, standing harp, bourhan, all of those are of Irish origin and better examples if we cared to get it right. Even highland bagpipes so prevalant in St. Paddy parades are less than traditional Irish – but they're louder than Ullean pipes and make better parade instruments... Sorry, but nothing beats a good war drum in a song...pun intended... The penny whistle is another Irish insturment (I used to play it...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I don't know where all of you Japanese culture experts get your information, but the scientific and academic communities all agree that the gong was created in the 1970's by Chuck Barris. Geez, and some of you went to college? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goober Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 I don't know where all of you Japanese culture experts get your information, but the scientific and academic communities all agree that the gong was created in the 1970's by Chuck Barris. Geez, and some of you went to college? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 oh man, all this gong talk has got me thinking... maybe SNL should redo the Will Farrel/Christopher Walkin/Blue Oyster Cult sketch... "I've got a fever! And the only prescription... is more gong!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 oh man, all this gong talk has got me thinking... maybe SNL should redo the Will Farrel/Christopher Walkin/Blue Oyster Cult sketch... "I've got a fever! And the only prescription... is more gong!" "I puton my pants one leg ata time, justlike everybody else. The difference is after I put them on I make hit records." And the cowbell thing has had me thinking... were you GregoryETC. on that other board? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wedge Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 "I puton my pants one leg ata time, justlike everybody else. The difference is after I put them on I make hit records." And the cowbell thing has had me thinking... were you GregoryETC. on that other board? Nope. Sorry. This is my first and only board. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Nope. Sorry. This is my first and only board. There was a good poster over there that also loved that sketch, and decided that we all needed to bring White Sox cowbells out to the park and that would really fire the team and fans up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Controlled Chaos Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 OK fun discussion.... I learned a lot about japanese musical history. Ya know...in case that EVER comes up again. Oh and BTW, if anyone here ever says dago or wop again there will be hell to pay!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Gleason Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 To bad the both of you would be incorrect. The Gong was used by the Japanese Samuri. That is traditional enough for you? Are the Japanese Samuri not part of Japanese tradition or culture? Give me a break. I don't care what they use in their music. This has nothing to do with music. It has to do with tradition and culture and what we associate with that. Not so sure how I was wrong. I liked his post, and Bear Republic does make a fine Stout that any beer lover needs to try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Gleason Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 let's start talking about Godzilla again. I had one of the movies on tape and it was a good movie. but i dont know where it is now. :headshake Drop me a line, I can get you a copy of any of them. I do actually LOVE where this thread went to, and find it a great testament as to how we can all just get along. Anytime you get that Ferrel/Walkin sketch into daily conversation is GREAT!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkman7 Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Kid Gleason, your post from earlier was well written and very succint.(sp?) I don't know how you can spell it out any more clear than that. sigh. Maybe forty years from now things will change. Reading threads like this shows me how far asians and asian americans have to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 OK fun discussion.... I learned a lot about japanese musical history. Ya know...in case that EVER comes up again. Oh and BTW, if anyone here ever says dago or wop again there will be hell to pay!! "Isn't that just like a filthy wop? Brings a knife to a gunfight." Name the flick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnorthsox Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 "Isn't that just like a filthy wop? Brings a knife to a gunfight." Name the flick? Multiculturally, MC Hammer would call it "Can't touch this" but as an old mick I'd just say "The Untouchables". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted July 13, 2004 Share Posted July 13, 2004 Come on thread Nazi, these threads always crack me up! LOL. "Thread Nazi" I hope no blonde haired, blue eyed people of German descent are offended by that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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