greasywheels121 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Shaq will retire with more championship rings than Kobe in the end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 He'll never be as good as Kobe. And he'll never win 3 titles. Book it. Would Kobe have won 3 titles without Shaq? No. Would he even have won one without Shaq? No. Let's face it, the only guard good enough to win his team a title without a solid big man was the one, the only Michael Jordan. That's what made him so special. He won without a big man. To look back over the past 15 years, every other team has had a solid big man. 91-93: Bulls, you could argue Cartwright, but Michael Jordan 94-95: Rockets, Olajuwon 96-98: Bulls again, this time with Luc Longley starting lol 99: Spurs, Duncan AND Robinson 00-02: Lakers, Shaq 03: Spurs, ditto 04: Pistons, Sheed, Ben Wallace Kobe isn't good enough to win without a big man, neither is Dwayne Wade. Just don't use 'he won 3 titles' as an argument because Kobe was with Shaq and still managed to lose the title the last 2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted July 17, 2004 Author Share Posted July 17, 2004 Shaq will retire with more championship rings than Kobe in the end. Well, I don't know about that, Kobe has a good 12-15 years ahead of him, Shaq has most likely 4-6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Would Kobe have won 3 titles without Shaq? No. Would he even have won one without Shaq? No. Let's face it, the only guard good enough to win his team a title without a solid big man was the one, the only Michael Jordan. That's what made him so special. He won without a big man. To look back over the past 15 years, every other team has had a solid big man. 91-93: Bulls, you could argue Cartwright, but Michael Jordan 94-95: Rockets, Olajuwon 96-98: Bulls again, this time with Luc Longley starting lol 99: Spurs, Duncan AND Robinson 00-02: Lakers, Shaq 03: Spurs, ditto 04: Pistons, Sheed, Ben Wallace Kobe isn't good enough to win without a big man, neither is Dwayne Wade. Just don't use 'he won 3 titles' as an argument because Kobe was with Shaq and still managed to lose the title the last 2 years. I agree with you 100%. Just imagine where Minnesota would be without KG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Would Kobe have won 3 titles without Shaq? No. Would he even have won one without Shaq? No. Let's face it, the only guard good enough to win his team a title without a solid big man was the one, the only Michael Jordan. That's what made him so special. He won without a big man. To look back over the past 15 years, every other team has had a solid big man. 91-93: Bulls, you could argue Cartwright, but Michael Jordan 94-95: Rockets, Olajuwon 96-98: Bulls again, this time with Luc Longley starting lol 99: Spurs, Duncan AND Robinson 00-02: Lakers, Shaq 03: Spurs, ditto 04: Pistons, Sheed, Ben Wallace Kobe isn't good enough to win without a big man, neither is Dwayne Wade. Just don't use 'he won 3 titles' as an argument because Kobe was with Shaq and still managed to lose the title the last 2 years. But Jordan had Pippen. The bulls had perfect role players around those guys, granted I'm not arguing kobe is close to jordan because he isn't but if you give kobe a scottie pippen like partner then put solid role players around them then he'll win some titles. I agree with aboz, right now Tmac is the only guard that can be mentioned in the same breathe as kobe. Iverson is right below those two, Pierce isn't even close, and vince carter is a showboat who fills seats but is as overrated as they come. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danman31 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 But Jordan had Pippen. The bulls had perfect role players around those guys, granted I'm not arguing kobe is close to jordan because he isn't but if you give kobe a scottie pippen like partner then put solid role players around them then he'll win some titles. So you think Kobe will lead the Lakers to the NBA title this year? rolleyeyes.gif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 So you think Kobe will lead the Lakers to the NBA title this year? rolleyeyes.gif No definitely not, he doesn't have a good enough team around him. I said if he gets a 2nd rate star on the team like a Pippen then I can definitely see Kobe leading a team to a title. Lamar Odom ain't that guy so no L.A. won't even be a top 5 team in the west, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I said if he gets a 2nd rate star on the team like a Pippen 2nd rate star? That's a joke, right? He wasn't voted one of the 50 greatest players in the history of the NBA on the strength of his looks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Would Kobe have won 3 titles without Shaq? No. Would he even have won one without Shaq? No. Let's face it, the only guard good enough to win his team a title without a solid big man was the one, the only Michael Jordan. That's what made him so special. He won without a big man. To look back over the past 15 years, every other team has had a solid big man. 91-93: Bulls, you could argue Cartwright, but Michael Jordan 94-95: Rockets, Olajuwon 96-98: Bulls again, this time with Luc Longley starting lol 99: Spurs, Duncan AND Robinson 00-02: Lakers, Shaq 03: Spurs, ditto 04: Pistons, Sheed, Ben Wallace Kobe isn't good enough to win without a big man, neither is Dwayne Wade. Just don't use 'he won 3 titles' as an argument because Kobe was with Shaq and still managed to lose the title the last 2 years. More than 90% of you NBA champions since 1947 have won on the strength of the center position. Remember, in a defensive sense (which is all that matters if we're talking about championships), the center is like the goalie in hockey or soccer, the starting pitcher in baseball, etc. The better the personnel at those positions, the more likely you are to acquire rings. Exeptions include two of the top 5 greatest defensive units of all time in the late 80s/early 90s Pistons and the 90s Bulls. Laimbeer was the man, but he wasn't a "dominant" center. Cartwright was nothing special. Jordan and Pippen were 1st team defense every year for like 10 years or whatever. Same with Rodman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 2nd rate star? That's a joke, right? He wasn't voted one of the 50 greatest players in the history of the NBA on the strength of his looks. I worded that awfully. By 2nd rate star I mean another player to complement him just like pippen was. I agree with you pippen was awesome with the bulls and in my opinion the best defensive player that ever played his position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 pippen was awesome with the bulls and in my opinion the best defensive player that ever played his position. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palehosefan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I've noticed alot of people on this board keep saying Vince is very over-rated. Would someone explain why? Nobody in the media is saying he's even on Kobe's level, just that he's one of the top 2 guards in the NBA. I don't see how anyone can refute that. Someone please help me out here. And yes someone please give me the "he hasn't taken his team anywhere" argument or even the "he is whining about wanting to be traded" argument. I would love that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiff Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I've noticed alot of people on this board keep saying Vince is very over-rated. Would someone explain why? Nobody in the media is saying he's even on Kobe's level, just that he's one of the top 2 guards in the NBA. I don't see how anyone can refute that. Someone please help me out here. And yes someone please give me the "he hasn't taken his team anywhere" argument or even the "he is whining about wanting to be traded" argument. I would love that. Im still floored by the "he doesn't want to practice" argument against Iverson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Well, I don't know about that, Kobe has a good 12-15 years ahead of him, Shaq has most likely 4-6. lol. 12-15 years? I don't think Kobe is gonna play 20+ years in the nba. However. This is Kobe's chance to prove himself away from Shaq. I 100% believe that if T-mac, Iverson, Pierce, Or even Vince had a 28, 29, and 30 year old Shaq next to them they would win rings. History is definitely not on Kobe's side. As has been mentioned, No sg who's last name wasn't Jordan has been able to lead a team to a title. One aspect of Jordan that people don't look at enough is that he was the ultimate leader. He commanded the respect of his teamates. He made everybody around him better. Not everybody has those type of leadership skills or qualities. I've never seen anything outta Kobe that screams leader. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 He made everybody around him better. Not everybody has those type of leadership skills or qualities. That is kind of an obvious statement. I think you meant not every star, not ever great player has those qualities...and I do agree, to an extent. I think there's a saying in all sports...there are good players and great players...the good players put up the numbers, the great players make the players around them better. Shaq, KG, Duncan...they all have that ability. It really is yet to be seen if Kobe does...the only time he was without Shaq for a period of time, they were well below .500. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ManSooLee Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 The Dwayne wade Shaq combo will be great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 That is kind of an obvious statement. I think you meant not every star, not ever great player has those qualities...and I do agree, to an extent. I think there's a saying in all sports...there are good players and great players...the good players put up the numbers, the great players make the players around them better. Shaq, KG, Duncan...they all have that ability. It really is yet to be seen if Kobe does...the only time he was without Shaq for a period of time, they were well below .500. Yeah. That's what I meant. I agree with all of your post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I was peepin nba.com earlier. Just to put in perspective how tough it's gonna be for the Lakers to make the playoffs next year. Check out the rest of the west. Spurs=resigned Manu Ginobili, Signed one of the best 3 point shooters in the league in Brent Barry "something they desperately needed". Tony Parker will be a year better. Oh yeah. They have that Duncan guy. Wolves= Brings back virtually the same cast from last season. The same team that had the best record in the west. The same team that many believed would've beaten the Lakers in the wcf's had their all-star pg Sam Cassell been healthy. Add to that, they locked up Troy Hudson, Who is now healthy for the next 6 years. Rockets= Added who many believe to be one of the top 5 players in the league "T-mac" to an up and coming all-star center, who figures to be even better in year 3 "Yao". To form what should be "Now that Shaq is with the Heat" The best inside-outside combo in the league. Kings= They look to start the season with a healthy Chris Webber. Add to that , all-stars in Peja and Brad Miller. To go along with Mike Bibby and Bobby Jackson. The Kings still figure to win 50+ games. Mavs= They lost Steve nash. But resigned pg Marquis Daniels, who had a very impressive rookie year, to go along with a fantastic playoff run. They also drafted the very talented Devis Harris out of Wisconsin, who figures to get every oppurtunity to fill the void left by Nash. They still have an all-star pf in Dirk. An explosive sg in Michael Finley. A versatile pf in Antoine Walker. An up and coming Josh Howard. They also figure to have one of the leagues better benches "Stackhouse, Laettner, Najera". The Mavs also figure to be a 50 win team. Nuggets= GOD DAMN@THAT FRONT-COURT. Nene Hilario, The resigned Marcus Camby, The newly aquired all star pf In Kenyon Martin. Oh yeah. That Carmello guy should be even better this year. Grizzlies= a 50 win team last season that brings back it's entire core. Add to that, they picked up a very solid reserve in Brian Cardinal "sure he's overpaid" But none the less, He makes what was already a deep team, Deeper. Jazz= Missed the playoffs last year by 1 game despite chronic injuries, including their leading scorer "Matt Harpring" Who missed 51 gms. They've added a solid pf in Carlos Boozer, to go along with the very talented Mehmet Okur from the world champion Pistons. All-star Andre Kirelinko is back. To go along with the resigned Raul Lopez and Gordn Giracek. Both of whom played very well last season. They also had a solid draft "Kris Humpries and Kirk Snyder". Both are expected to contribute this year. Suns= Signed all-star pg Steve Nash. Are very close to signing the very talented Quentin Richardson. To go along with an all-star pf In Shawn Marion, and the every improving Amare Stoudamire. The Suns figure to be very much improved Lakers= Fired a 9 time world champion coach. Traded the most dominant player in the league for a Borderline all-star "Odom", a solid role player at best "Butler", and an undersized center who posted single digit points and rebounds last season "Grant". They Still have Kobe, who figures to increase his scoring now that Shaq is gone. But the other side of that is that he will now be the focal point of every defense the Lakers go up against. Meaning more double if not triple teams. Especially now that teams don't have to constantly double and triple Shaq in the post. Not much to get excited about after Kobe. Gary Payton is 36 and way past his prime. Karl Malone might leave. Even if he comes back it's very doubtful that at his age he could play anymore than 55-60 gms, especially coming off knee surgery. They figure to have one of the worst benches in the league, to go along with the fact they have little to no outside shooting. Something that's crucial in today's era of the zone defense. So there it is. Sorry if too long. I just wanted to remind everybody of what the Flakers are up against. I don't think they have a prayer. Stay tuned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I loved how Kobe said how it hurted him that Phil Jackson and Shaw left because of him. That's because it's true. Now let's see how you can handle life in prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Remember what Shaq said about Eddie Jones too in his autobiography, He's timid. He's selfish. He chokes in the clutch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palehosefan Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I can't refute any of those comments either about Jones. If any that he's not, its selfish. But, he is indeed a choker and timid. However, he will only have to be the 3rd option for this team, I think that will be fine for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 Nuggets= GOD DAMN@THAT FRONT-COURT. Nene Hilario, The resigned Marcus Camby, The newly aquired all star pf In Kenyon Martin. Oh yeah. That Carmello guy should be even better this year. GOD DAMN THAT FRONT COURT!!!! The beef is overwhelming! The three divisions in the Western Conference will be the Southwest Division (Dallas Mavericks, Houston Rockets, Memphis Grizzlies, New Orleans Hornets, San Antonio Spurs), Northwest Division (Denver Nuggets, Minnesota Timberwolves, Portland Trail Blazers, Seattle SuperSonics, Utah Jazz) and Pacific Division (Golden State Warriors, Los Angeles Clippers, Los Angeles Lakers, Phoenix Suns, Sacramento Kings). My predictions for next year, based on the new allignment where the top three seeds will all be division winners: 1. San Antonio 55+ wins 2. Minnesota 55+ wins 3. Sacramento 50+ wins 4. Denver 50+ wins 5. Dallas 50+ wins 6. LA Lakers 50+ wins 7. Phoenix 45+ wins 8. Memphis 45+ wins 9. Houston 45+ wins 10. Utah 45+ wins 11. New Orleans 40+ wins 12. Portland 40+ wins All of the 9 seed through 12 seed teams out west have a shot at making the playoffs! Hell, the only teams that you can rule out before the season begins: Seattle Supersonics Golden State Warriors Los Angeles Clippers Competition is going to be brutal. I'll be rooting for the Spurs and the Nuggets on the strength of their big men. I can tell you one thing: The Nuggets are going to slam the Lakers! Camby, Martin, and Hilario versus what? What do the Lakers have down low? It's gonna be a slaughter. Just give them a rebounding edge of at least 10 before those games even start..... Unless the Lakers get a Dampier or somebody, they won't advance to the second round unless they play someone like Sacramento or Dallas in the first round, who they could probably beat in a seven game series, as they match up very well. But they don't have much of a chance against San Antonio, Minnesota, or Denver. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan4life_2007 Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 GOD DAMN THAT FRONT COURT!!!! The beef is overwhelming! My predictions for next year, based on the new allignment where the top three seeds will all be division winners: 1. San Antonio 55+ wins 2. Minnesota 55+ wins 3. Sacramento 50+ wins 4. Denver 50+ wins 5. Dallas 50+ wins 6. LA Lakers 50+ wins 7. Phoenix 45+ wins 8. Memphis 45+ wins 9. Houston 45+ wins 10. Utah 45+ wins 11. New Orleans 40+ wins 12. Portland 40+ wins All of the 9 seed through 12 seed teams out west have a shot at making the playoffs! Hell, the only teams that you can rule out before the season begins: Seattle Supersonics Golden State Warriors Los Angeles Clippers Competition is going to be brutal. I'll be rooting for the Spurs and the Nuggets on the strength of their big men. I can tell you one thing: The Nuggets are going to slam the Lakers! Camby, Martin, and Hilario versus what? What do the Lakers have down low? It's gonna be a slaughter. Just give them a rebounding edge of at least 10 before those games even start..... Unless the Lakers get a Dampier or somebody, they won't advance to the second round unless they play someone like Sacramento or Dallas in the first round, who they could probably beat in a seven game series, as they match up very well. But they don't have much of a chance against San Antonio, Minnesota, or Denver. I don't see the Hornets winning 40+ games. They barely topped that last year in the east. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted July 18, 2004 Share Posted July 18, 2004 I don't see the Hornets winning 40+ games. They barely topped that last year in the east. Two words Tim Floyd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxman352000 Posted July 19, 2004 Share Posted July 19, 2004 Wade and Shaq will dominate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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