witesoxfan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 A fellow Kentuckian can appreciate my sarcasm... FWIW, I got it too. Though I would not put giving $30 mill out of Steinbrenner's range. As far as the deal is concerned...I do make that move. Willie and Timo can always share CF duties, and Johnson is so much better then Garland is, it's not even funny. If Schoeneweis decides to continue to suck ass, a cheaper SP can be brought in. f*** the future...win now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 A fellow Kentuckian can appreciate my sarcasm... Hey. We speak the same language. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 FWIW, I got it too. Though I would not put giving $30 mill out of Steinbrenner's range. As far as the deal is concerned...I do make that move. Willie and Timo can always share CF duties, and Johnson is so much better then Garland is, it's not even funny. If Schoeneweis decides to continue to suck ass, a cheaper SP can be brought in. f*** the future...win now. Prediction ... and I will eat a s*** load of crow if I'm wrong, Garland wins more games between now and the end of the regular season than Johnson does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I knock the guy a lot, but I can't trade Garland for a year and half of Randy, plus throw in Aaron and prospects. It's just too much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Prediction ... and I will eat a s*** load of crow if I'm wrong, Garland wins more games between now and the end of the regular season than Johnson does. I'd bet on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Lopez Ghost (old) Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 (Sorry Willie cannot come to the phone right now he is busy not starting.) Is it just me or was Willie hitting well and all of the sudden got benched and sucked since then? Without regular playing time... It's pretty much just you. Willie anchored himself to the bench when he stopped trying to steal bases. His game is running, and he won't do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 A fellow Kentuckian can appreciate my sarcasm... With George running the team, sadly it isnt that far from beliefe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbaho-WG Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I cannot believe you people. Aaron Rowand is now considered a "solid everyday player"? What the f*** are you smoking? I've said this time and time again, he is a servicable 4th OF on a good team, nothing more. Could you tell me in one full season where he batted over .300? Rowand's career high in walks in 38, back in AA. Rowand struggles mightily against right handed pitching, and we're afraid to give him up for the best pitcher in the game? And at the same time we're afraid of losing Jon Garland? The same Jon Garland that will never become Kevin Brown like many thought he would be. The same Jon Garland who probably lacks the two things a pitcher needs most: confidence and a pair of balls. So let me say this again: you people are afraid of giving up a 26 year old 4th outfielder, a #4 starter and most likely two prospects (Munoz/Diaz/Rauch and Anderson/Sweeney (why can't Borchard just go)) for the best pitcher in the game, hands down? That's just sad. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I knock the guy a lot, but I can't trade Garland for a year and half of Randy, plus throw in Aaron and prospects. It's just too much. Yeah you're right...It's better having Uribe's lower OBP and few steals than Willie's HIGHER OBP and MORE STEALS! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I'd bet on that. I would too. A year and a half of Randy Johnson could bring us to the promised land. We could win the whole f***ing thing. As of right now, I see 1, maybe 2 teams with a better 1-2-3 then us(that being Oakland and Boston...both matchup better then us 1-2, as Schilling-Pedro and Mulder-Hudson are better then Garcia-Buehrle, but I like our chances with Zito and Lowe/Wakefield against Loaiza). Give us Randy Johnson, and those matchups become Mulder/Schilling-Johnson, Hudson/Pedro-Garcia, Zito/Lowe(or Wakefield)-Buehrle...those look a hell of a lot better to me. Johnson-Garcia-Buehrle is not only the best 1-2-3 in the AL, it is the best 1-2-3 in the majors period, especially when Prior-Wood-Zambrano is ailing. Take out Prior, and it becomes Wood-Zambrano-Clement, and Clement always has the ability to hang a few sliders and lose control and walk 4 guys a game and have 120 pitches by the middle of the 6th. Garland does s*** for us in the playoffs, except maybe come out of the pen as a middle reliever. You can bring in guys to do that s*** for you. Talk to Seattle and dangle Rauch in front of their face and see if they don't give us Guardado. Have Arizona include Valverde in the trade(though I think he's injured right now...or atleast he was injured earlier in the year). There are enough relievers available to make your head spin. If there is a package that includes Garland-Rowand-Borchard-Munoz for RJ(and maybe Valverde...and if they want Crede, make them give us Hillenbrand too), I do it in a heartbeat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 In my opinion you undervalue both Rowand and Garland. Rowand is going to a solid major league outfielder and Garland is curreently better than your average number 4 starter and will only get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magglio's extension Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 it's very simple here, do you want to make a run at this thing or not. is rowand or garland gonna carry you to the world series, absolutely not. randy "f***ing" johnson will put this team on his back come playoff time. rowand has been solid lately, but i can't believe the support he is getting in this argument, especially when we're talking about RJ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I cannot believe you people. Aaron Rowand is now considered a "solid everyday player"? What the f*** are you smoking? I've said this time and time again, he is a servicable 4th OF on a good team, nothing more. Could you tell me in one full season where he batted over .300? Rowand's career high in walks in 38, back in AA. Rowand struggles mightily against right handed pitching, and we're afraid to give him up for the best pitcher in the game? And at the same time we're afraid of losing Jon Garland? The same Jon Garland that will never become Kevin Brown like many thought he would be. The same Jon Garland who probably lacks the two things a pitcher needs most: confidence and a pair of balls. So let me say this again: you people are afraid of giving up a 26 year old 4th outfielder, a #4 starter and most likely two prospects (Munoz/Diaz/Rauch and Anderson/Sweeney (why can't Borchard just go)) for the best pitcher in the game, hands down? That's just sad. A-f***ING-MEN I like Rowand a little more then that, but I could not agree any more. It is not possible to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I withdraw my objections. After reconsidering it, ok .... go for it, KW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I withdraw my objections. After reconsidering it, ok .... go for it, KW. That's the spirit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 That's the spirit! For the record ... I very grudgingly withdraw my objections. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I withdraw my objections. After reconsidering it, ok .... go for it, KW. That's the smart move!!! If you think about it, KW practically has to. He's already given up a young stud catcher and our #1 prospect for a pitcher who lost 14 games and had an ERA of 4.50 last year(he IS much improved this year though, and is showing signs of old). You can't stop now...you have to go for it all. As of right now, for this franchise, there is no tomorrow(tomorrow being next year...we have no idea what's going to happen next year) This may offend some of our minor league gurus here, but right now, with the attitude Williams should have, the farm system should be used for trade bait...the entire thing. If KW does this correctly, our farm system should be terrible next year, with maybe 1 or 2 bright spots in high A-ball and above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 So let me say this again: you people are afraid of giving up a 26 year old 4th outfielder, a #4 starter and most likely two prospects (Munoz/Diaz/Rauch and Anderson/Sweeney (why can't Borchard just go)) for the best pitcher in the game, hands down? That's just sad. So instead of a "servicable 4th outfielder" you'd have a #5 or worse out there??? ----- Here's my problem with the trade...looking at it analytically, it seems to be equatable, trough Win Shares. Garland + Rowand = Johson. Looks like an even trade for both sides. The problem is that as we had no net gain in Win Shares, it's not likely for us to pick up any wins in the long run of this season. I can see the value of RJ over AR+JG in the playoffs, and I'm not arguing that, but we have to get to the playoffs first. And the one way to do it is by having an net increase in our Win Shares... Since prospects don't earn Major League Win Shares, they are more easily given up in a deal like this... In summation, We can't afford to give up two contributing members of our team for one, when it doesn't appear that it will actually add any more wins to our season. Comparing this propsed deal to the Garcia one is easy. Garcia (8.5WS)>MO (4.7WS) + JR (0 WS) = 3.8 net gain Johnson (11.5 ) ~ JG(5.9WS) + AR(5.3WS) = .3 net gain .3 Net gain in WS, that's not enough to guarentee a trip to the post season.... Now if you removed either one of or the other of AR and JG, and replaced them with 2 prospects, you'd have a net gain of 5 something, and that should be enough to guarentee sucsess in the Regular season. And we know what RJ can do in the Post season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I wouldn't trade Garland. Rauch, Diaz, Honel, whoever, yes. Jon is still only 24 (?) and has more experience than some pitchers that are 27 and 28. Granted, he hasn't taken than experience and gained much knowledge from it, but I'm still under the impression that Garland can still be a very good top rotation starter. He hasn't shown any injury problems, and he's shown he has the ability to get outs. Garland should be untouchable, IMO. Also, didn't it take Sheets awile to find his groove? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobDylan Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 In summation, We can't afford to give up two contributing members of our team for one, when it doesn't appear that it will actually add any more wins to our season. I agree 100%. That's not the way to do it. That's never been the way to do it. Arizona found that out the hard way when they acquired Sexson, and what I see in this deal is Arizona trying to rape us the same way they got raped by the Brewers. People don't like giving up prospects, but prospects aren't contributing to your ball club, while underachieving players like Garland are. Though underachieving, players like Jon are more valuable than an Anderson or a Sweeney at this point in time. We don't have the payroll the Yankees do, but they developed their farm and dealt them for players they needed for years. Now they don't have a farm and they just buy, but we still have the depth to trade prospects away, especially given we have our future 'locked in' at many positions. Crede, Uribe, Harris, Rowand, Borchard, Garland, Buehrle, Lee. It's tough to give up guys like Anderson and/or Sweeney for a 41 year old pitcher, but it could be worth it. I remember hearing an interview on the radio with a former GM (don't remember who) a few days ago; he was saying the way to do it is to trade prospects for bonafied players and crush the competittion in the overseas and latino market to make up for the lost prospects. Is it me or are the White Sox a big puller for the latino market now that they have Ozzie and are loaded with Latino talent? IMO, adios prospects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Play too win. Johnson is a solid winner. Garland is not. We would have Johnson for the rest of this year and next. Rauch, Diaz, Honel, or Munoz could take Garlands place. Win and win now. Screw the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HuskyCaucasian Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 I will tell you this right now, if KW goes for it THIS year, we might be selling our soul to the devil. I understand the KW stance that we havent won anything since 1917, but if try and go for it JUST this year and DONT win, then we might not win another until 2090. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DABearSoX Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 nope.....no way on garland...he is pitching well this year with a few headcase games Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Why in God's name would we give up that much? It's clear that they are under more pressure to make a deal since Randy will only agree to go to a few teams, an most of them won't give up a whole lot. The Angels have more ammo, but probably won't deal MacPhearson. The rest of the teams certainly won't give them two regulars on their team, or if you equate that to prospects, 3 studs(unless the Cubss somehow get involved, which I doubt). The deal that seems most likely(Yankees) centers around Robinson Cano and Dionar Navarro. So how do we suddenly have to give up two guys on the major league roster and prospects, for a 40 year old starter who will be here for a year and a half, tops, that will make our payroll skyrocket? I'd love to have the Big Unit if he would agree to come here, but damn, we don't need to give up that much to beat the other offers. A package centering around Borchard and Rauch with Munoz/Diaz and/or Anderson/Sweeney should be more than enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loaiza21 Posted July 17, 2004 Share Posted July 17, 2004 Is there a way around Rowand? Otherwise don't do it. Garland is definitly nothing special if you're getting Johnson... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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