Overpaying yet again

[greg775]

Hokay, I believe you.

 

I just thought Rauch was always talked about as the

next best thing last offseason.

Too bad he's another guy that surgery has wrecked.

Thanks for pointing out the facts to me.

[ZoomSlowik]

I agree that the guys we gave up don't have much value. In both of our trades we made this year, I was kind of shocked when I heard the names, but when you look at what they have done it makes sense. Olivo is a catcher that is hitting around .260 in his best year(more than 20 points better than his previous best), and had a reputation for not calling a good game. He does have a cannon for an arm and is pretty good at blocking balls, but those things don't have a ton of value on our team. Some people say we gave up a stud young catcher, but he is already 26. That means you gotta start worrying about whether or not he can still play in about 4 or 5 years. Reed is a solid prospect, but seems to have a much lower ceiling than a lot of players. He had a phenomenal year last year, but was only doing okay this year. It seems to me they dealt him while he still had a ton of trade value. Morse is a prospect with a ton of potential, but he is having his first good year, and it appears he will not play SS in the pros. It seems like a pretty good deal for a 27 year old starter that is having a great year and has very good stuff. As for the Everett deal, Rauch and Majewski are both about 26 and still haven't done anything in the majors. They are really running out of time to still be considered prospects. Borchard falls into this category too. When you look at it, we don't have a whole lot of highly regarded prospects left. Our best is probably Anderson at this point, and not a whole lot else in AA or AAA. I'm not sure where we are going to find much else to make trades with.

[sox-r-us]

I would love to still get Robbie Alomar back and send Ben Davis down

 

That way, we get a strong depth on the bench for the IF and OF when playoff arrives

 

Robbie can be a very good LH bat to spell Willie or if Willie continues to struggle

 

Between Willie and Rowand, CF is covered from both sides of the plate

 

Jurassic can be the reserve OF'er or even play CF against tough righties in the playoffs, or play DH if Frank does not get back

 

Between Robbie and Uribe and even Willie, LH and RH is covered for 2B

 

Of course, we can play Uribe at SS to rest Val against some lefty pitcher too

 

That way, our depth lets us sit people when needed or to get best LH/RH player on

 

Robbie has started to hit well again (now at 0.289 overall and hitting 0.359 in July with a 0.432 OBP in July) .....it should be easy to get him real cheap (some really low prospect) though I doubt KW has ever forgiven him for his contract issues last off season.....though with Sandy around, he would be fired to come back here.

[YASNY]

With both of our starting middle infielders being lefthanded hitters, I see no need for the Sox to reacquire Roberto Alomar.

[Molto]

Greg ... really? By whom?

 

He had a 7-8 record at AAA last year and his ERA was over 4.  His velocity has never come all the way back and there were concerns with his attitude.  Don't think for a second that information was only privy to White Sox personnel.

 

It's nice to think our prospects are very highly regarded, but reality is likely different.

we could've gotten Jose Vidro in the deal and Greg, I have a feeling, would still question it.

 

there are some guys who will question KW's moves just for the sake of questioning it.

[RibbieRubarb]

If we get another positon player, I would like it to be Jason Kendall.

He is an OBP Machine and can hit leadoff or 2nd fill our hole at Catcher.

 

His problem...too muchy money.

 

I think our main needs are Leadoff Hitter and Dominating RH setup for 7th or 8th inning.

[Wedge]

If we get another positon player, I would like it to be Jason Kendall.

He is an OBP Machine and can hit leadoff or 2nd fill our hole at Catcher.

 

His problem...too muchy money.

 

I think our main needs are Leadoff Hitter and Dominating RH setup for 7th or 8th inning.

We got a guy on our team that CAN be the leadoff man in Harris. I'd rather see the extra guy in the bullpen.

 

That said... if KW gets Kendall AND Jose Mesa, I will kiss him.

[Ozzietheairedale]

I agree that the guys we gave up don't have much value. In both of our trades we made this year, I was kind of shocked when I heard the names, but when you look at what they have done it makes sense. Olivo is a catcher that is hitting around .260 in his best year(more than 20 points better than his previous best), and had a reputation for not calling a good game. He does have a cannon for an arm and is pretty good at blocking balls, but those things don't have a ton of value on our team. Some people say we gave up a stud young catcher, but he is already 26. That means you gotta start worrying about whether or not he can still play in about 4 or 5 years. Reed is a solid prospect, but seems to have a much lower ceiling than a lot of players. He had a phenomenal year last year, but was only doing okay this year. It seems to me they dealt him while he still had a ton of trade value. Morse is a prospect with a ton of potential, but he is having his first good year, and it appears he will not play SS in the pros. It seems like a pretty good deal for a 27 year old starter that is having a great year and has very good stuff. As for the Everett deal, Rauch and Majewski are both about 26 and still haven't done anything in the majors. They are really running out of time to still be considered prospects. Borchard falls into this category too. When you look at it, we don't have a whole lot of highly regarded prospects left. Our best is probably Anderson at this point, and not a whole lot else in AA or AAA. I'm not sure where we are going to find much else to make trades with.

The comparison between Garcia/Davis with Reed/Olivo/Morse has got to be made in context. If you compare Garcia with the 3 guys we gave up, Garcia is probably worth it. But the correct comparison is 3 months of Garcia for the potential of 5-6 years of Reed/Olivo/Morse because I think the Sox had a great chance of getting Garcia in the offseason. When you make the comparison that way, it hardly seems worth giving up on those 3 guys.

 

Yes, the Sox needed a starting pitcher. It isn't that I don't think KW should have gone out and got one. It's just that I think he overpaid for this particular pitcher.

 

As for the Everett trade, I suppose we'll have to see. But as in the Yahoo quote at the beginning of this thread, most baseball people think KW got fleeced again. Very few GMs would trade 2 pitchers for an often injured hitter who can't play the field.

 

As for the guy who suggested that Everett could take over in the outfield if the Sox lost Maggs: :headshake

[Guest JimH]

I think the Sox had a great chance of getting Garcia in the offseason.  When you make the comparison that way, it hardly seems worth giving up on those 3 guys.

 

 

But as in the Yahoo quote at the beginning of this thread, most baseball people think KW got fleeced again.  Very few GMs would trade 2 pitchers for an often injured hitter who can't play the field.

Two things here in relation to your statements.

 

One, the Sox needed Garcia now, not in the offseason.

 

Two, Yahoo isn't "most baseball people". If Rauch and Majewski were so valuable, why were they sent right to AAA Edmonton? And who says Everett can't play the outfield? His career fielding stats are not that bad.

 

You're making some very big generalizations here and painting them as fact.

[Rowand44]

Two things here in relation to your statements.

 

One, the Sox needed Garcia now, not in the offseason.

 

Two, Yahoo isn't "most baseball people".  If Rauch and Majewski were so valuable, why were they sent right to AAA Edmonton?  And who says Everett can't play the outfield?  His career fielding stats are not that bad.

 

You're making some very big generalizations here and painting them as fact.

[southsideirish]

Holy cow, be careful!!

 

The last time I started a thread like this, it ended up getting locked because there was so much name calling.

 

I agree wholeheartedly, however.  I think GMs love trading with KW because, as the quote states, he consistently overpays.  He WAY overpaid for Garcia - unless the Sox get to the WS.  With Garcia's relationship with Guillen, KW could have gotten Garcia in the offseason for nothing.

How does getting Garcia next year for nothing help us this year?

[ZoomSlowik]

The comparison between Garcia/Davis with Reed/Olivo/Morse has got to be made in context. If you compare Garcia with the 3 guys we gave up, Garcia is probably worth it.  But the correct comparison is 3 months of Garcia for the potential of 5-6 years of Reed/Olivo/Morse because I think the Sox had a great chance of getting Garcia in the offseason.  When you make the comparison that way, it hardly seems worth giving up on those 3 guys.

 

Yes, the Sox needed a starting pitcher.  It isn't that I don't think KW should have gone out and got one.  It's just that I think he overpaid for this particular pitcher.

 

As for the Everett trade, I suppose we'll have to see.  But as in the Yahoo quote at the beginning of this thread, most baseball people think KW got fleeced again.  Very few GMs would trade 2 pitchers for an often injured hitter who can't play the field.

 

As for the guy who suggested that Everett could take over in the outfield if the Sox lost Maggs:  :headshake

Do you REALLY think we would have outbid teams like the Yankees in the offseason? No way. We had a major advantage in acquiring him during the season because we could give up talent. In the offseason it's all money. Teams like the Yanks, Red Sox, Baltimore, and Texas all have money and a need for pitchers. All we need is one of them to go nuts in the offseason and we don't get Freddy. This way we got him and locked him up for another 3 years.

[Ozzietheairedale]

How does getting Garcia next year for nothing help us this year? 

Getting Garcia was a good move - it's just that I think the Sox overpaid for him. I've said all along that if the Sox go to the WS, this deal was worth it. But if they don't, I think Seattle got a much better deal. Nobody knows what alternatives KW had so you can only evaluate the deal that was done.

[qwerty]

Getting Garcia was a good move - it's just that I think the Sox overpaid for him.  I've said all along that if the Sox go to the WS, this deal was worth it.  But if they don't, I think Seattle got a much better deal.  Nobody knows what alternatives KW had so you can only evaluate the deal that was done.

Do you realize we resigned garcia?

[Chisoxfn]

Do you realize we resigned garcia?

He does, he just thinks for some strange reason that hte Sox would of made a hard push at him in the free agent market...afterall the White Sox have a tremendous track record at making hard pushes at starting pitchers in the free agent market.

 

I don't know what the pitching market is this offseason, but off the top of my head, Odalis Perez will be the best guy out their and while he's good, when you have a thin starting pitching market, their will be teams needing pitching that are going to be seriously overbidding. That means Garcia would of been bid on by many teams...KW may get into bidding wars in trade, but when it comes to cash...it ain't going to happen.

[Rowand44]

I don't know what the pitching market is this offseason, but off the top of my head, Odalis Perez will be the best guy out their and while he's good, when you have a thin starting pitching market, their will be teams needing pitching that are going to be seriously overbidding.  That means Garcia would of been bid on by many teams...KW may get into bidding wars in trade, but when it comes to cash...it ain't going to happen.

I definitely agree with what you said but I'd say Pavano is better then Odalis but either guy would be great to have. Derek Lowe will also be there, he might be worth a shot if he'll sign cheap because of the s*** year he's having.

[israel4ever]

Rausch sucked, sucks, will suck!

 

 

We gave up NOTHING for Everett!

[DBAHO]

I definitely agree with what you said but I'd say Pavano is better then Odalis but either guy would be great to have.  Derek Lowe will also be there, he might be worth a shot if he'll sign cheap because of the s*** year he's having.

Odalis Perez and Carl Pavano are probably the top 2 guys that'll be available this off season in free agency. Derek Lowe I think will be signed by Philly, as they are looking for some sinker ballers at thier ball park, which is the new Coors Field of the East. Pedro Martinez will probably go to the Yankees or remain with the Red Sox. Matt Morris is another option, but he's had a terrible year and has had shoulder problems which has caused him to lose some velocity on his fastball.

[Ozzietheairedale]

He does, he just thinks for some strange reason that hte Sox would of made a hard push at him in the free agent market...afterall the White Sox have a tremendous track record at making hard pushes at starting pitchers in the free agent market.

 

I don't know what the pitching market is this offseason, but off the top of my head, Odalis Perez will be the best guy out their and while he's good, when you have a thin starting pitching market, their will be teams needing pitching that are going to be seriously overbidding.  That means Garcia would of been bid on by many teams...KW may get into bidding wars in trade, but when it comes to cash...it ain't going to happen.

This starting pitcher was different. I think the main reason he re-signed with the Sox so quickly was his strong relationship with Ozzie - something like a son-in-law. I don't think it's a stretch to say the Sox would have signed him in the offseason. And Davis is a total zero, worthless.

 

So, again, it's 3 months of Garcia for 5-6 years of Olivo/Reed/Morse.

[Kid Gleason]

Get those "Dumbass" signs ready for me!!!

 

Am I the only guy who believed Olivo to being one of the most over-hyped guys to ever put on a uniform? You would swear we were seeing the second coming og Christ with how people talked about the guy! Yes, he had a quick release, but I'll be damn if I ever saw him actually throw online and get outs! I also never saw much of a hitter out of him. Yes, he was better than two of the knuckleheads we have now, but I do believe it won't be that hard to replace him behind the plate. Alomar is in his downslide right now, but I think his knowledge will help future catchers and pitchers. We need a new catcher for sure, but the loss of Olivo is not the worst thing to happen, and we needed that starting pitching MUCH worse than we needed a mediocre catcher who everybody thought was Johnny Bench.

[False Alarm]

no signs, but i disagree, kid. i suspect mo's inability to throw out baserunners this year was attributable more to our pitchers' (except for MB) slow deliveries and being terrible at holding runners. he had improved steadily at the plate in the minors and his first two seasons up here, so i think it's reasonable to think he'll develop into a pretty effective batter. if he does, with his tools...not johnny bench, but still a pretty rare commodity--and cheap for a while longer.

[JUGGERNAUT]

The Sox gave up two guys who had no future in the Organization, for a guy who should help them win games down the stretch...

 

Jurassic's Win Shares = 1.8 -- Rauch's Win Shares = .2 --

 

Net gain of 1.6 Win Shares.. WS are related to teams victories, so if carl performed at an equal level on the Sox he would have even more WS...

 

I expect him to perform at a level comparable to last season, because he is in a pennant race.  He was one of the only guys who showed any heart down the stretch last season....

 

He crushed the AL central, and we play 39? more games vs. the central this season... what's not to like?

Montreal is picking up ALL of Everett's salary this year!

So now you need to put this in perspective: Everett signed with MTL for 7 mil /2 yrs.

The SOX are getting 8 month's of Everett ab's for about 3 MIL.

That's worth Rauch & Majewski.

Now if they can't sign Maggs or the Hurt they have a viable backup at a very reasonable price.

[Chisoxfn]

This starting pitcher was different.  I think the main reason he re-signed with the Sox so quickly was his strong relationship with Ozzie - something like a son-in-law.  I don't think it's a stretch to say the Sox would have signed him in the offseason.  And Davis is a total zero, worthless.

 

So, again, it's 3 months of Garcia for 5-6 years of Olivo/Reed/Morse.

Ya, thats fine and dandy now that he's with the team, but not with him out in FA. The Sox will already be pushing to get Maggs resigned, maybe trying to get Elo resigned and hammering out a whole lot of other things, plus I believe that Garcia would of ended up getting a pretty ridiculous offer had he been out on the FA market.

 

And I stick to my sentiments, Sox don't get in bidding wars, especially with pitchers, so I see 1% chance that they would of done much anything had they not acquired him now.

[Chisoxfn]

In regards to Olivo, I have thought it was scary that some of the Sox pitchers didn't want to pitch to him, especially considering he had a rocket arm, you would of figured at the very least they liked that.

 

I think Miguel regressed this year defensively. I think he has the chance to be good, but I do think we overhype him quite a bit. Personally, I'd rather have Brian Schneider and I do think he can be replaced, the question is will anyone step up and earn the catcher spot this year (doubt it).

[Rowand44]

Odalis Perez and Carl Pavano are probably the top 2 guys that'll be available this off season in free agency. Derek Lowe I think will be signed by Philly, as they are looking for some sinker ballers at thier ball park, which is the new Coors Field of the East. Pedro Martinez will probably go to the Yankees or remain with the Red Sox. Matt Morris is another option, but he's had a terrible year and has had shoulder problems which has caused him to lose some velocity on his fastball.

Yeah, I definitely don't want Matt Morris he's looked awful this year, I think he's already given up 27 homeruns this year, it'd be scary to think how many he'd give up at the cell. I agree with you about Pedro. I think odalis would come cheaper then Pavano but I could be wrong about that, either way I'd like the sox to make a serious run at either one of them.