music

[bmags]

i liked the new album by the shins a lot. the dudes just make really nice pop music. Btw i thought i remember seeing a buncho trail of dead fans here, its been leaked a month...what do you all think? I love to listen to it, even though i don't find it a particularly strong album. I DO like the GBV cover, i think some people just think GBV is a band you should never cover but the rawness of all their songs i think leave open interpretations of them rather interesting.

[FlaSoxxJim]

NEW YORK (Billboard) -- Eddie Van Halen has brought his 15-year-old son, Wolfgang, into Van Halen as the veteran rock band's new bass player, a spokesperson told Billboard.com.

 

Father and son, along with Eddie's drummer brother Alex, have been rehearsing for a 2007 tour, but it is unknown who will serve as the band's vocalist. (Wolfgang's substitution for original bass player Michael Anthony was first reported by news Web site TMZ.com a week ago.)

^^^ Van Halen

[greasywheels121]

I know it's a sin to discuss mainstream in this thread, but what are people's thoughts on +44?

 

I'm digging it; it reminds me a lot of Blink.

[The Critic]

I know it's a sin to discuss mainstream in this thread, but what are people's thoughts on +44?

 

I'm digging it; it reminds me a lot of Blink.

Haven't heard them, but the bolded part of the last sentence would veer me away from them.

[BobDylan]

Got the last two volumes of Sufjan Stevens Christmas box set today. I enjoyed the first three quite a bit, and enjoy the last two just as much. Sufjan is quite a talent, I think he's going to make a lasting mark in music and be one of them legendary musical names.

 

Haven't heard them, but the bolded part of the last sentence would veer me away from them.

 

I second that.

[bmags]

he sounds too similar on every album. I like sufjan, but he's rather formulaic.

[BobDylan]

he sounds too similar on every album. I like sufjan, but he's rather formulaic.

 

Ehh...I disagree. He made an electronica album for starters, and the maturation from A Sun Came to Seven Swans to Michigan is fantastic. Though, I will agree that IlliNOISE and the Christmas albums sound similar to Michigan. He said he's tired of banjo's though, so it'll be interesting to see what he does next.

[bmags]

a sun came sounds pretty radically different but his 4 most successful albums, seven swans>michigan>illinois>illinois bsides, its not like if i just put those four on random i'd be able to specifically know which is which album if i erased knowledge of their placement.

[BobDylan]

a sun came sounds pretty radically different but his 4 most successful albums, seven swans>michigan>illinois>illinois bsides, its not like if i just put those four on random i'd be able to specifically know which is which album if i erased knowledge of their placement.

 

I feel like Michigan and IlliNOISE are different from Seven Swans. Seven Swans is more banjo heavy as the other two are more layered and better built with trumpets (Seven Swans has a very light trumpet arrangement) and other instruments I don't know what are (flutes? clarinets? oboes?)

[Chisoxfn]

I know it's a sin to discuss mainstream in this thread, but what are people's thoughts on +44?

 

I'm digging it; it reminds me a lot of Blink.

+44 is definately solid. But right now I'm totally infatuated with the latest My Chemical Romance CD. I liked there first but this one is a lot lot better.

[bmags]

I feel like Michigan and IlliNOISE are different from Seven Swans. Seven Swans is more banjo heavy as the other two are more layered and better built with trumpets (Seven Swans has a very light trumpet arrangement) and other instruments I don't know what are (flutes? clarinets? oboes?)

 

yes it escalated, but in the same realm that coldplay escalated.

 

I'm a sufjan fan, but i def. need him in small doses. He is a bit self-indulgent, illinoise ran damn lengthy, a real marathon to finish. That and his tempo changes are just predictable.

[BobDylan]

yes it escalated, but in the same realm that coldplay escalated.

 

I'm a sufjan fan, but i def. need him in small doses. He is a bit self-indulgent, illinoise ran damn lengthy, a real marathon to finish. That and his tempo changes are just predictable.

 

Ouch, a Coldplay comparison. I didn't think, in the slightest, Coldplay showed ANY maturation from Parachutes to X & Y. I remember when I first bought the new album, I thought it was a carbon copy. I don't know. I'm an avid Stevens fan, I've listened to all of his albums front and back, inside and out several times and I can see changes in what he plays. As I said, Seven Swans is banjo heavy. Michigan is more matured than Swans, it introduces a full, front to back symphony album. IlliNOISE does the same, just in a more upbeat fashion. I can see where the average Stevens listener might not see the development, but if you're willing, give his albums a deeper listen. He's a fantastic writer, he makes albums front to back (unlike most) and they're themed albums to boot.

 

But aside from that, I think his next album will be electronica. I thought Dear Mr. Supercomputer -- though it's only lightly electronica -- was the best song from the b-sides (it had Stereolab potential written all over it), and given that he's already made an electronica album (which wasn't great, but incredibly interesting) I think it makes the most sense.

 

Anyway, any guesses on his next style? And what about Radiohead's next LP? I'd LOVE to see them try Jazz or Folk.

Edited November 14, 2006 by BobDylan

[bmags]

an average fan? LOL i own all his albums minus enjoy your rabbit. I'm just saying I highly doubt he will be considered in the same realms of music greats unless he shows some more versatility than just 'adding more strings'. He's a storyteller, and its fun the songs he can make about any towns, like the NPR challenge where he had 3 days to write a song about some rural town, and made a nice diddy, but his recent work is so 3rd person i think it sucks that he isn't letting us know him. The introspective lyrics are gone, which is as arrogant as anything malkmus was accused of doing with his nothing lyrics.

[Rex Kickass]

I thought that a lot of Illinoise was deeply personal or at least felt that way. John Wayne Gacy feels as much about Sufjan as Gacy.

[bmags]

I thought that a lot of Illinoise was deeply personal or at least felt that way. John Wayne Gacy feels as much about Sufjan as Gacy.

 

if anything i felt that JWG gave the feeling of being the victim of the crimes and having an almost sympathetic view of gacy.

[sox4lifeinPA]

if anything i felt that JWG gave the feeling of being the victim of the crimes and having an almost sympathetic view of gacy.

 

 

or perhaps Stevens wasn't "forgiving" gacy as much as admitting that he feels and acts as f-ed up at times as gacy did. Sounds familiar to me.

[BobDylan]

an average fan? LOL i own all his albums minus enjoy your rabbit. I'm just saying I highly doubt he will be considered in the same realms of music greats unless he shows some more versatility than just 'adding more strings'. He's a storyteller, and its fun the songs he can make about any towns, like the NPR challenge where he had 3 days to write a song about some rural town, and made a nice diddy, but his recent work is so 3rd person i think it sucks that he isn't letting us know him. The introspective lyrics are gone, which is as arrogant as anything malkmus was accused of doing with his nothing lyrics.

 

I don't know what to say to somebody that considers themselves more of an average fan of Stevens but thinks his writing isn't personal. I respect your opinions a great deal, but really, you need to LISTEN to what Stevens is writing. It's almost like he's giving you a f***ing key to his heart.

 

And it should be noted that Seven Swans was a solo album.

 

And who cares if the styles don't change record to record? It's obvious IlliNOISE was his best feat yet, isn't it? He's said he's looking to make change from there, right? So he releases a few b-sides, slaps a Christmas Box set out, so what? He hasn't earned that right? Not many people can "crap out" good songs like that regardless of what style they play in, right? He's put out 5 good LP's in 5 years. Some can't even do 2 in 10, 20, 30 years. And besides, hardly ANYONE noticed Stevens before IlliNOISE, yet, people can chastise him for not experimenting? What a joke.

Edited November 15, 2006 by BobDylan

[bmags]

I don't know what to say to somebody that considers themselves more of an average fan of Stevens but thinks his writing isn't personal. I respect your opinions a great deal, but really, you need to LISTEN to what Stevens is writing. It's almost like he's giving you a f***ing key to his heart.

 

And it should be noted that Seven Swans was a solo album.

 

And who cares if the styles don't change record to record? It's obvious IlliNOISE was his best feat yet, isn't it? He's said he's looking to make change from there, right? So he releases a few b-sides, slaps a Christmas Box set out, so what? He hasn't earned that right? Not many people can "crap out" good songs like that regardless of what style they play in, right? He's put out 5 good LP's in 5 years. Some can't even do 2 in 10, 20, 30 years. And besides, hardly ANYONE noticed Stevens before IlliNOISE, yet, people can chastise him for not experimenting? What a joke.

 

I never said his writing isn't personal, I said his writing has become impersonal. And per the solo album part, i'm not sure what that means, his traveling band right now isn't really set in stone. But for instance, per seven swan's "to be alone with you":

I'd swim across lake Michigan

I'd sell my shoes

I'd give my body to be back again

In the rest of the room

 

To be alone with you

To be alone with you

To be alone with you

To be alone with you

 

and per my fav. song off seven swan's 'good man is hard to find:

I once was better.

I put off all my grief.

I put off all my grief.

And so I go to hell, I wait for it,

but someone's left me creased.

now, not that you have to be first person to be personal in songwriting, i think we all know it can be in first person and be just as impersonal, but i especially liked his almost guilt in how he can't help but give up everything for this girl in to be alone with you, and his recognition of imperfection in seven swans. Now in michigan i felt it was a transition, i felt flint was a very personal song in his identification of loneliness in the working class, but then you get 'the upper peninsula:

I live in a trailer home

With a snow mobile, my car

The window is broken out

And the interstate is far

I drove all night

To find my child

In strange ideas

He's been revived

and then illinoise lyrics:

Sangamon River it overflowed

It caused a mudslide on the banks of the operator

civil war skeletons in their graves,

They came up clapping in the spirit of the aviator

The sound of the engines and the smell of the grain,

We go riding on the abolition grain train

Steven A. Douglas was a great debater,

But Abraham Lincoln was the great emancipator ;

I'm not afraid of Nichol's Park

I ride the train and I ride it after dark

I'm not afraid to get it right

I turn around and I give it one more try

I said things that I meant to say

The bandstand chairs and the Dewey Day parade;

 

not to say that there aren't writing gems on illinoise, despite not being my fav. of songs, man of metropolis has the best rhyme scheme he's probably had, and gacy is a haunting perspective done in the best way. ANd to my main point, its that he has no other styles he shows anymore, and after 4 albums i've heard i can make the judgement that he's stuck in a rut right now. He may not have had the national following he has now, but michigan was hardly a blip in the radar, that whole 'danielson famille' and sufjan we're doing their own thing and it culminated in both of them finding their most interesting string arrangements within a year apart of eachother. So in closing, agree to disagree, I'll take my will sheff, you can take your sufjan, in the end we are both getting better music than the majority of people, f*** subjectivity. but a word from will sheff:

And I think I believe that, if stones could dream, they'd dream of being laid side-by-side, piece-by-piece, and turned into a castle for some towering queen they're unable to know. And when that queen's daughter came of age, I think she'sd be lovely and stubborn and brave, and suitors would journey from kingdoms away to make themselves known. And I think that I know the bitter dismay of a lover who brought fresh bouquets every day when she turned him away to remember some knave who once gave just one rose, one day, year's agooooo...

[BobDylan]

I never said his writing isn't personal, I said his writing has become impersonal. And per the solo album part, i'm not sure what that means, his traveling band right now isn't really set in stone. But for instance, per seven swan's "to be alone with you":

I'd swim across lake Michigan

I'd sell my shoes

I'd give my body to be back again

In the rest of the room

 

To be alone with you

To be alone with you

To be alone with you

To be alone with you

 

and per my fav. song off seven swan's 'good man is hard to find:

I once was better.

I put off all my grief.

I put off all my grief.

And so I go to hell, I wait for it,

but someone's left me creased.

now, not that you have to be first person to be personal in songwriting, i think we all know it can be in first person and be just as impersonal, but i especially liked his almost guilt in how he can't help but give up everything for this girl in to be alone with you, and his recognition of imperfection in seven swans. Now in michigan i felt it was a transition, i felt flint was a very personal song in his identification of loneliness in the working class, but then you get 'the upper peninsula:

I live in a trailer home

With a snow mobile, my car

The window is broken out

And the interstate is far

I drove all night

To find my child

In strange ideas

He's been revived

and then illinoise lyrics:

Sangamon River it overflowed

It caused a mudslide on the banks of the operator

civil war skeletons in their graves,

They came up clapping in the spirit of the aviator

The sound of the engines and the smell of the grain,

We go riding on the abolition grain train

Steven A. Douglas was a great debater,

But Abraham Lincoln was the great emancipator ;

I'm not afraid of Nichol's Park

I ride the train and I ride it after dark

I'm not afraid to get it right

I turn around and I give it one more try

I said things that I meant to say

The bandstand chairs and the Dewey Day parade;

 

not to say that there aren't writing gems on illinoise, despite not being my fav. of songs, man of metropolis has the best rhyme scheme he's probably had, and gacy is a haunting perspective done in the best way. ANd to my main point, its that he has no other styles he shows anymore, and after 4 albums i've heard i can make the judgement that he's stuck in a rut right now. He may not have had the national following he has now, but michigan was hardly a blip in the radar, that whole 'danielson famille' and sufjan we're doing their own thing and it culminated in both of them finding their most interesting string arrangements within a year apart of eachother. So in closing, agree to disagree, I'll take my will sheff, you can take your sufjan, in the end we are both getting better music than the majority of people, f*** subjectivity. but a word from will sheff:

And I think I believe that, if stones could dream, they'd dream of being laid side-by-side, piece-by-piece, and turned into a castle for some towering queen they're unable to know. And when that queen's daughter came of age, I think she'sd be lovely and stubborn and brave, and suitors would journey from kingdoms away to make themselves known. And I think that I know the bitter dismay of a lover who brought fresh bouquets every day when she turned him away to remember some knave who once gave just one rose, one day, year's agooooo...

 

I love Okkervil River, I love Will Sheff, but there is an overexposure of emotion. The difference between Sheff and Stevens is that Sheff hasn't done anything but the totally "in your face this is how I f***ing feel goddamnit!" perspective. At times, it's downright emo. Stevens, on the other hand, has shown much of a personal side, just as well as stepping back and writing humorous songs and historical songs. Or, in other words, songs that are just there to entertain. I've always liked that about Stevens. And when I saw him live a few years back at Schubas, the feeling I got from Sufjan was: "I love music and I'm just here to have fun." When I saw Okkervil River at the Metro, I kind of got the opposite feeling. I mean, Bob Dylan isn't known for being a "personal" writer, is he? I think LOVE is overplayed, and that there are many more emotions out there that a lot of people won't bother to notice. Though Dylan may not be known as a "personal" writer because he didn't write about himself, many of his political songs are pretty damn personal. Am I wrong?

[bmags]

as far as okkervil river...have you heard "death of a president", the hypothetical death of a leader i liken to whitmans oh captain, wonderfully done and beautifully rhymed. I don't think sheff only relies on love in his writing, i think storytelling is just as big a part, which is why i think he picked scott walker's black sheep boy to create an album out of.

 

and okk. river was an opening set at metro. I saw them at the blue note in Col. MO, and for one at that decemberists concert, i thought the horn/slide guitarist/keyboarder with the red hat was hilarious. But they were funny and open and can rock and build up their songs and tear them down and build them up again in a disastrous via chicago type way and its beautiful.

 

Per dylan, an interesting question, i think i'll take on his 60's-70's pop hits, they were current and topical, and i think relaying your view on a current time is inherently personal, as the way you are feeling is projective to the song. I can think of no other explanation as to why he so exagerrated the gangster in 'Joey'. oh, rereading i see that i'm agreeing with you, anyway. I guess at this point, i guess i have to concede that there is a certain shallowness to my opinion. Not shallow due to lack of familiarity, but perhaps shallow in that i might not be listening to what it is, i might have listened to what i wanted it to be. And perhaps when i didn't get my way, i certainly didn't shelve it, I ranked it my #1 last year, but as this year went on, with so much new things to listen to and analyze, i'm thinking when i listened again, i was listening but not hearing, and gave it a 'nice to listen to, not to be consumed by'. And if sufjan has a gift, it is that his string arrangements can say more than any lyric he can create, if you allow yourself to be hear it. That said, i think he has too much talent to stay complacent in his mich/ill style.

[BobDylan]

as far as okkervil river...have you heard "death of a president", the hypothetical death of a leader i liken to whitmans oh captain, wonderfully done and beautifully rhymed. I don't think sheff only relies on love in his writing, i think storytelling is just as big a part, which is why i think he picked scott walker's black sheep boy to create an album out of.

 

and okk. river was an opening set at metro. I saw them at the blue note in Col. MO, and for one at that decemberists concert, i thought the horn/slide guitarist/keyboarder with the red hat was hilarious. But they were funny and open and can rock and build up their songs and tear them down and build them up again in a disastrous via chicago type way and its beautiful.

 

Per dylan, an interesting question, i think i'll take on his 60's-70's pop hits, they were current and topical, and i think relaying your view on a current time is inherently personal, as the way you are feeling is projective to the song. I can think of no other explanation as to why he so exagerrated the gangster in 'Joey'. oh, rereading i see that i'm agreeing with you, anyway. I guess at this point, i guess i have to concede that there is a certain shallowness to my opinion. Not shallow due to lack of familiarity, but perhaps shallow in that i might not be listening to what it is, i might have listened to what i wanted it to be. And perhaps when i didn't get my way, i certainly didn't shelve it, I ranked it my #1 last year, but as this year went on, with so much new things to listen to and analyze, i'm thinking when i listened again, i was listening but not hearing, and gave it a 'nice to listen to, not to be consumed by'. And if sufjan has a gift, it is that his string arrangements can say more than any lyric he can create, if you allow yourself to be hear it. That said, i think he has too much talent to stay complacent in his mich/ill style.

 

Well, either way, both Okkervil River/Will Sheff and Sufjan Stevens are amazing talents. I may be partial to Stevens (I know he's an "educated" writer, and sometimes I see that and I think it gives him a heads up over Sheff), but Sheff isn't exactly a bad writer. I like a lot of his writing, but sometimes I think it's a bit too self-loathing. The key for Okkervil River's long term status is I think in their next album. Black Sheep Boy put them on the map, but I don't think it holds the weight of an IlliNOISE or even The Great Lakes State. That said, I think Stevens has more to lose in his next album. His name has exploded, he has a chance to be a big name like Radiohead, but if he f***s up, well...

 

As far as The President's Dead, it's a pretty good song. The lyrics are a step outside the norm for Sheff, which is a good thing, but I felt that it was kind of awkward. My view may be different in a year or so, but as it stands now, I'm not ready for Sheff to take the plunge from inside the heart to political grind. But in any regard, I thought the Overboard & Down EP was disappointing.

 

But as you said, you can't really go wrong with either Will Sheff or Sufjan Stevens. I'd like to see some sort of uber blend between Sheff, Stevens and Oldham. I think there's a perfect blend of folk in there. And all three are pretty good writers. Oldham's I See A Darkness is one of my favorite albums of all time -- and Cash's cover of I See A Darkness on American III can make you burst into tears.

[bmags]

i didn't find 'the presidents dead' political at all. I think Sheff honestly one ups sufjan in rhyme schemes, he rhymes internally as well as end rhyme, and some times interchanges them during the song and its quite awesome.

I think Top ten songwriters at the moment, and i'm gonna leave out dylan and tom waits just because its obvious and this could be fun, and we all love lists at soxtalk, i'm gonna go:

1. Will Oldham/Bonnie 'Prince' Billy

2. Jeff Tweedy

3. M. Ward

4 Isaac Brock

5. Will Sheff

6. Sufjan Stevens

7. Stuart Murdoch

8. Dan Bejar

9. Mark Kozelek

10. David Berman

*honorable mentions* Pollard, Morrissey, Merritt, sam beam i guess. Joanna Newsome and Chan.

[Soxy]

Been listening to Greig and Ibsen's Peer Gynt, love it. I think "Solveig's Song" is one of the most beautiful pieces of music ever written.

[BobDylan]

i didn't find 'the presidents dead' political at all. I think Sheff honestly one ups sufjan in rhyme schemes, he rhymes internally as well as end rhyme, and some times interchanges them during the song and its quite awesome.

I think Top ten songwriters at the moment, and i'm gonna leave out dylan and tom waits just because its obvious and this could be fun, and we all love lists at soxtalk, i'm gonna go:

1. Will Oldham/Bonnie 'Prince' Billy

2. Jeff Tweedy

3. M. Ward

4 Isaac Brock

5. Will Sheff

6. Sufjan Stevens

7. Stuart Murdoch

8. Dan Bejar

9. Mark Kozelek

10. David Berman

*honorable mentions* Pollard, Morrissey, Merritt, sam beam i guess. Joanna Newsome and Chan.

 

I'm not sure how you'd rate Morrissey as only an honorable mention. Also, an easy one that you didn't mention at all: Nick Cave. How about Lou Reed? Andrew Bird? Ani DiFranco? Jarvis Cocker?

[bmags]

I'm not sure how you'd rate Morrissey as only an honorable mention. Also, an easy one that you didn't mention at all: Nick Cave. How about Lou Reed? Andrew Bird? Ani DiFranco? Jarvis Cocker?

 

There was only ten spots and its not like i'm short on names. Lou Reed would fall into legends category, cause this was more of a modern songwriters and i haven't listened to a reed album post coney island, baby. I can never bare listening to Difranco. Nick cave, sure, andrew bird I don't think would hit top 20, cocker was on my mind, but i only did top 10. I was also missing Michael P. Hinson, beck, spencer krug, daniel johnston, etc.