Old Socks Challenge

[Rowand44]

Oldsocks, we're just going to have to agree to disagree on this subject but can you please stop making every one of your posts bashing kenny, we each got our opinions across, now can we keep it at that?

[Old Socks]

OK.

 

But I like the second Everett trade.

[Guest JimH]

All we have to do is start off by saying "Reed, Anderson, Sweeney, (and possibly McCarthy) are off the table."  End of story.  The trade still could have been made.  Who was going to make a better offer?

You keep saying this, but saying it 10 times doesn't make it true.

 

The Yankees, for one, were ready to include their top catching prospects (Navarro) in the deal, along with pitching. Phillies were interested, as were other teams.

 

It's not as simple as saying "you can't have any of our best guys but we still expect to complete the trade because our fans think we can and should".

You have to remember that some times, certain teams match up better with others, and Fontaine was our minor league guy last year.

 

Bottom line, it was more than just the White Sox who were bidding for Garcia, and it took including a guy like Reed to get it done.

[whitesox61382]

In my original post, the rambling one, I mentioned a few significant prospect for veteran trades.  One big one that I forgot is when Seattle traded Johnson to Houston for Freddy Garcia, Guillen (the shortstop now with Detroit), and Halama.  Now, I know Randy helped get Houston to the playoffs where they were quickly dispatched by the Braves, but my goodness they gave up a lot.  Those guys would have made Houston a much better team for the next five years.

 

Regarding comments about Reed not having superstar material, he had those skills a year ago.  I don't think they went away, even though he was hitting in the .270's at Charlotte.  And why do you guys always compare him to Kotsay?  His name is Jeremy Reed.  I wouldn't trade Reed for ten Kotsays.  I bet Seattle lwouldn't either.

 

My problem is the negotiating position.  Seattle wanted to trade Garcia, and they have every right to get the most out for as they can.  I just don't like it when it is at our expense.  All we have to do is start off by saying "Reed, Anderson, Sweeney, (and possibly McCarthy) are off the table."  End of story.  The trade still could have been made.  Who was going to make a better offer?

 

And if Kenny offered Texas the choice of six players, then shame on him.  I repeat, that deal was done because he was free, in terms of 2003 salary.  Just like Robbie.  Carl performed very well offensively, and we still came in second to Minny.  I am not second guessing Kenny when I say that was a bad trade, because I vented immediately after the trade was made, ad nauseum.

The Randy Johnson for Garcia, Guillen, and Halama trade is one of the few examples of a trade in which the team that got the prospects "won", but you need to understand that there were about a dozen other trades similar(not quite as big) as the Johnson trade in which none of the prospects amounted to anything. In all seriousness, keep an eye on ESPN.com because they usually put out an article that shows the fact that the majority of trades involving prospects are usually not "won" by the team getting prospects. My point is that we should at least wait until the prospects make the majors before we start saying that the Sox gave up a future HOF.

 

You are not understanding Old Socks, Reed never had superstar skills, he had a great 200 AB stretch of overachieving. Average players have great stretches all the time, but that doesn't mean they are great players. It is like looking at Loaiza's numbers from last year, and ignoring his career history. As far as the Kotsay comparison goes, that is who the majority of scouts compare him to. I think you have a clear case of overrating Sox prospects. Being fooled by a 200 AB stretch into thinking that Reed is the next Ted Williams. The fact is, that Reed's talents project him to be a HEALTHY Kotsay type player, ie .290-.300/10-15/75-80 15-20 SB, high OBP with solid plate disipline. I am sorry to break this to you, but Reed will not be a star in the majors. He will be a solid top of the order hitter, but thats about it. Here is an interesting game, look back at the Sox top 10 prospects(according to BA) from 5 years ago, and than 10 years ago. You will notice that half those guys aren't even in the majors, and maybe 1-2 of them are solid major league players. The point is that very few prospects develop into solid major league players, yet alone superstars(even top prospects like Reed).

 

Old Socks, you are not understanding how a trade negotiation works. The Sox can't push off their so-so prospects and hope to get a front of the rotation pitcher in the prime of his career. You have to give to receive, and if you look back on those top 10 prospect lists, than you will see how few "top" prospects ever develop into decent major leaguers. So the M's are taking a risk as it is by getting possible no major league talent for a darn good pitcher. You said that you wouldn't trade Reed for 10 Kotsays, but would you trade Kotsay and Olivo for 3.5 years of Garcia? Because 3 years from now, that is probably how the trade is going to look, unless Olivo sees the light and learns how to hit righties, Reed is that 1:10000 player that develops power in the majors without losing anything else(like Palmero), and Moore turns into a Jose Valentin type SS. The odds off all that happening are none. Wait a couple of years before you pass judgement on this trade, and watch Reed play a few times before you call him a superstar in the making.

[Chisoxfn]

I am not intrigued by Ring.  The Mets were ready to waive Robbie, so why give up a guy who had some potential to make it, even if it is as a set up reliever.  The majors are full of lefties who throw in the mid to high 80's and who, according to my pal Rex, "know how to pitch."  Saying he knows how to pitch is not much of an indictment.

If I recall I thought the Royals were about to acquire Alomar when the Sox got him???

 

I never heard a thing about him being waived or anything along those lines.

[MnSoxFan]

If I recall I thought the Royals were about to acquire Alomar when the Sox got him???

 

I never heard a thing about him being waived or anything along those lines.

You are correct, Royals wanted him, Ring was the one who made the deal happen.

 

For every trade prospects come thru, I bet there are 6-8 that do not.

[Old Socks]

I just thought of another can't miss prospect for a veteran. In the early 60's we traded Johnny Callison, who was our Primo prospect, for a band aid third baseman, Gene Freese. Callison went on to a tremendous career and the band aid was gone in a year. We don't get too many Johnny Callisons here. I think we had another in Reed. In fact, that is a better comparison than Kotsay.

[MnSoxFan]

I just thought of another can't miss prospect for a veteran.  In the early 60's we traded Johnny Callison, who was our Primo prospect, for a band aid third baseman, Gene Freese. Callison went on to a tremendous career and the band aid was gone in a year.  We don't get too many Johnny Callisons here.  I think we had another in Reed.  In fact, that is a better comparison than Kotsay.

We gave up a lot of prospects after 1959, Veeck really messed up. We lost Earl Battey, Callison, Norm Cash, Don Mincher and a couple others.

 

Then 2 or 3 years later, we had 3 minor league pitchers to protect and only 2 spots left, we protected Bruce Howard and Dave DeBusschere and left Denny McLain to be picked up by Tigers. Of course, at time it was probably correct decision, but no one expected DeBusschere to go to NBA fulltime.

 

The worst deal in history of Sox for me tho, was trading Gossage and Forster for one year rental Richie Zisk, even tho Zisk had a great year.

 

Close behind was Doug Drabek for Roy Smalley. Ouch.

[MnSoxFan]

Oldsocks, honestly, I wanted to dump Borchard rather than Reed, but Garcia is everything he was cracked up to be. I wish KW would be a little less aggressive with the prospects, but OF was one position we are well stocked on. I really like Young, Andersona and Sweeney, so at least he traded from a stocked position this time.

[ZoomSlowik]

I just thought of another can't miss prospect for a veteran.  In the early 60's we traded Johnny Callison, who was our Primo prospect, for a band aid third baseman, Gene Freese. Callison went on to a tremendous career and the band aid was gone in a year.  We don't get too many Johnny Callisons here.  I think we had another in Reed.  In fact, that is a better comparison than Kotsay.

There are always going to be cases where prospects for major leaguers get burned, but it goes the other way too. The Red Sox got Schilling for a bunch of guys that are amounting to nothing. The Sox gave up a bunch of crap for Colon. Look at deals like the A's acquiring Dye, or the Yankees getting Justice a while back. You also have to look at what the Red Sox gave up to get Pedro. They gave up two highly regarded young pitchers in Pavano and Armas several years ago. Pavano had done squat for several years until they dealt him to the Marlins, and Armas still hasn't done anything of import, while the Red Sox got one of the best pitchers in the league over the last few years. My big point is you got to trade these guys while they are worth something. You can't just deal them when you get impact players or when they have been given a chance and failed. There aren't a whole lot of chances for the former, and if you do the latter they have no trade value. You gotta try to evaluate these guys and figure out what they will do in the future, and if you don't see them doing much you trade them while you can. I really think Ring and Reed fall in this category. It looks like the Sox made a bad pick in taking a college reliever without great stuff over talented starters like Blanton and Brownlie. They were able to add a veteran player that could help their team. They apparently felt that he would be a lefty setup guy at best, so they let him go. I see the same thing in Reed. He's a guy that has limited tools. From most accounts he's not going to win a batting title, he's not going to hit a ton of homers, steal a ton of bases, or even play centerfield. But it looks like he was coming off a career year, making the hype ridiculous. It looks like the Sox have Lee and Rowand for a while(and potentially Maggs), with Anderson doing well and some other talented guys under him. A corner outfielder just doesn't have that much value right now for us. We have to deal with these guys while we can, otherwise we get stuck with a bunch of guys like Scott Ruffcorn, James Baldwin(yeah, he had a good half season but sucked otherwise, especially for his hype), Mike Caruso, Borchard, and Rauch that can't make an impact on the team but no longer have any value.

[danman31]

This may sound silly, but I believe that the one prospect that the Sox have traded over the last two seasons that will come back to bite them the most is John Rauch.

I find that hard to believe because we never had a John Rauch. I know of a Jon Rauch however. Ok, sorry, but I hate it when people do that to Jons. ESPN did it to Rauch, I've seen posters do it to Garland. It just bothers me. I mean, would you want your name to be misspelled? I know I wouldn't want my name to be spelled Dany. I guess then people would think I'm a porn star with a name like that.

 

Back to your normally scheduling intelligent posting. This should be thread of the year.

[dasox24]

This should be thread of the year.

This definitely is up there with the best. I've really enjoyed reading this thread. Everyone has made very good arguements for the side that they agree with. Here's to everyone that's made a post in this thread

[LDF]

I see the same thing in Reed. He's a guy that has limited tools. From most accounts he's not going to win a batting title, he's not going to hit a ton of homers, steal a ton of bases, or even play centerfield. But it looks like he was coming off a career year, making the hype ridiculous.

 

 

Mike Caruso,

I have to ask you this, have you ever seen reed play to make this statement, or were you able to piece your assessment by reading sports mags on your evalution on reed..

 

how many minors is there that is going to do what you suggested????

 

you are really off base with this.

 

 

btw caruso??? which caruso are you talking about?

[DBAHO]

This should be thread of the year.

No way, this thread takes the cake for sure.

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=22798

[ZoomSlowik]

I have to ask you this, have you ever seen reed play to make this statement, or were you able to piece your assessment by reading sports mags on your evalution on reed..

 

how many minors is there that is going to do what you suggested????

 

you are really off base with this.

 

 

btw caruso??? which caruso are you talking about?

I'll admit I haven't seen him play much, but I have read this in several places and heard it from some people that I trust. Unless he comes up with another fantastic season, I'm always going to consider it a fluke, especially considering he's down to .268 with Tacoma now. There are a ton of guys that kill the ball in AA that never make it. Very few prospects make an impact in the majors, and unless this guy is going to hit .310 I don't see him doing that because of his somewhat limited abilities in other areas. I would have liked to have kept him because I think he could be about a .280 hitter with a decent on base percentage, somewhat like Cattalanato, but when we already have two decent outfielders in the majors(and that's assuming Maggs goes) and two other studs that weren't that far behind Reed, he was expendable in my book. As for Caruso, I am referring to Mike Caruso, the stud SS prospect that we got in one of the White Flag trades that amounted to virtually nothing.

[YASNY]

You also have to look at what the Red Sox gave up to get Pedro. They gave up two highly regarded young pitchers in Pavano and Armas several years ago. Pavano had done squat for several years until they dealt him to the Marlins, and Armas still hasn't done anything of import, while the Red Sox got one of the best pitchers in the league over the last few years.

 

Based on some previous posts on this thread, this was a crappy trade for the RedSox. Pavano and Armas still have potential to become very good pitchers and even with Pedro, the Red Sox haven't won a World Series.

 

 

Just a little perspective added here.

 

 

One final note on the Everett (part 1) trade. Rupe is now pitching in Japan.

[MnSoxFan]

You have the wrong Rupe, you must be talking Ryan Rupe, ex Devil Ray pitcher.

 

Josh Rupe is pitching very well in the Texas org, now in High A ball I believe.

[YASNY]

You have the wrong Rupe, you must be talking Ryan Rupe, ex Devil Ray pitcher.

 

Josh Rupe is pitching very well in the Texas org, now in High A ball I believe.

I had the wrong Rupe because the Tribune did.

[MnSoxFan]

I had the wrong Rupe because the Tribune did.

Too funny, the Trib are a bunch of dolts.

[dasox24]

No way, this thread takes the cake for sure. 

http://www.soxtalk.com/index.php?showtopic=22798

I had a feeling that's what the link was to even before I clicked on it.

[cwsox]

We gave up a lot of prospects after 1959, Veeck really messed up. We lost Earl Battey, Callison, Norm Cash, Don Mincher and a couple others.

 

Then 2 or 3 years later, we had 3 minor league pitchers to protect and only 2 spots left, we protected Bruce Howard and Dave DeBusschere and left Denny McLain to be picked up by Tigers. Of course, at time it was probably correct decision, but no one expected DeBusschere to go to NBA fulltime.

 

The worst deal in history of Sox for me tho, was trading Gossage and Forster for one year rental Richie Zisk, even tho Zisk had a great year.

 

Close behind was Doug Drabek for Roy Smalley. Ouch.

I think those post 1959 trades have made some of us old enough to remember them wary of trades ecuase we threw away our future so often then for short term considerations, such as, cash flow.

 

I have always looked at trades with a greater amount of fear about what we are giving up than some people do about what we are gaining but those horrid trades of Veeck were in my formulative years and it lingers.