with tears, watching Al Gore

[LowerCaseRepublican]

So then that begs the question...  How many have to die before the government takes things seriously?  Evidently the 1993 WTC bombing and the 1995 bombing of the Murrah federal building weren't enough.  Clinton went right on blissfully slashing funding for the CIA, military and other defense and intelligence organs.  If that wasn't enough, how about all the rules and restrictions slapped on them during those years?  Like the way the CIA was not allowed to recruit foregin agents.  This effectively destroyed the humint capability they had and forced them to rely on elint ( electronic intelligence ) to get it done.  What have we we been desperately lacking these days in the middle east and elsewhere?  Yep, people on the ground passing info on to us that just doesn't get transmitted by electronic means.

Nuke, the Trib and the NY Times among other newspapers broke a story on October 28, 1993. Here's a copy of the article.

 

Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building

a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center,

and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting

harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after

the blast.

 

The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb

and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by

an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer,

Emad Salem, should be used, the informer said.

 

The account, which is given in the transcript of hundreds of

hours of tape recordings that Mr. Salem secretly made of his

talks with law-enforcement agents, portrays the authorities as

being in a far better position than previously known to foil

the February 26th bombing of New York City's tallest towers.

 

The explosion left six people dead, more than a thousand people

injured, and damages in excess of half-a-billion dollars.

Four men are now on trial in Manhattan Federal Court

[on charges of involvement] in that attack.

 

Mr. Salem, a 43-year-old former Egyptian Army officer, was used

by the Government [of the United States] to penetrate a circle

of Muslim extremists who are now charged in two bombing cases:

the World Trade Center attack, and a foiled plot to destroy

the United Nations, the Hudson River tunnels, and other

New York City landmarks. He is the crucial witness in the

second bombing case, but his work for the Government was

erratic, and for months before the World Trade Center blast,

he was feuding with th F.B.I.

 

Supervisor `Messed It Up'

 

After the bombing, he resumed his undercover work. In an

undated transcript of a conversation from that period,

Mr. Salem recounts a talk he had had earlier with an agent

about an unnamed F.B.I. supervisor who, he said,

 

"came and messed it up."

"He requested to meet me in the hotel,"

 

Mr. Salem says of the supervisor.

 

"He requested to make me to testify, and if he didn't

push for that, we'll be going building the bomb with

a phony powder, and grabbing the people who was

involved in it. But since you, we didn't do that."

 

The transcript quotes Mr. Salem as saying that he wanted to

complain to F.B.I. Headquarters in Washington about the

Bureau's failure to stop the bombing, but was dissuaded by

an agent identified as John Anticev.

 

Mr. Salem said Mr. Anticev had told him,

 

"He said, I don't think that the New York people would

like the things out of the New York Office to go to

Washington, D.C."

 

Another agent, identified as Nancy Floyd, does not dispute

Mr. Salem's account, but rather, appears to agree with it,

saying of the `New York people':

 

"Well, of course not, because they don't want to

get their butts chewed."

 

 

--

I've posted earlier in this thread about the efforts of Clinton to combat terrorism and there are a lot more. After the '93 bombing, most people believed it to be the work of the state of Iran and hard evidence proving AQ is quite scanty. There is more evidence showing the FBI involvement in the '93 bombing than AQ. Just saying is all.

 

And Nuke, how do you gauge the quality of that intelligence? The person to person intel that got us into the Iraq war was horridly wrong and yet we're still paying thousands of dollars to them (including a convicted embezzler.

 

And winodj, I have the vision of whole change in exposing rat bastards for what they are. Point taken but I don't think I'm as bad as those that I demonize because what I talk and what I believe are the exact same thing and I am not a hypocrite in that perspective.

[1549]

For anyone interested in clandestine CIA operations involving terrorism read the book Ghost Wars by Steve Coll. It's a non-slanted recap of the constant battle between U.S. forces and terrorist groups over the past 25 years.

 

I haven't read up to the Clinton Presidency yet, so I can't contribute anything about efforts to prevent the '93 attack on the World Trade Center.

[Rex Kickass]

And winodj, I have the vision of whole change in exposing rat bastards for what they are.  Point taken but I don't think I'm as bad as those that I demonize because what I talk and what I believe are the exact same thing and I am not a hypocrite in that perspective.

Here's the deal dudio,

 

There are two realistic choices for president this time around and the stakes couldn't be higher. And three words make this true. SUPREME COURT NOMINATIONS. You think affecting social change is hard now, imagine it with the help of Supreme Court justices in the model of Charles Pickering and with the ideological flexibility of an Antonin Scalia, or worse yet a Tom DeLay.

 

 

This election isn't one where throwing away your vote is a good idea. This is the most important election in the last 30 years because of the upcoming Supreme Court retirements. Choosing wisely here DOES make a huge impact. Period.

[Texsox]

I hear what you're saying. 

 

But consider, person A making $28,000 a year pays FIT of $2200 in taxes roughly.

 

Person B, making $100,000 pays FIT of $31,320 in taxes roughly.

 

So, person A pays 7.8% in FIT, person B pays 31.3% in FIT.

 

(Above are rough estimates, and FIT based on gross wages and SSI, etc not figured in).

 

So how is this so unfair again?  And how is it that person B gets a "nice little tax break"?

 

Yea, they get more opportunities to use deductions, etc. but overall, the richest 5% pays about 50% of the taxes in this country, while lower income people pay very little.

 

It's a screwed up system, but for those that cry for a flat tax, I say, really watch what you're doing because it can really jack with the lower income folks who currently pay NOTHING.

Kap

your numbers are very misleading. Individuals with 100,000 income have many more deductions, 401Ks, homes, investments, etc. which lowers there tax bite. 5% of the taxpayers pay 1/2 the taxes? US population is roughly 300,000,000. 5% would be 15,000,000. Our 2005 budget is 2.4 Trillion. That's a lot of money per person. Do you have a reference to your numbers? I used the CBO and CIA Census.

 

Do we want the America that the poorest among us can afford? Shall we collect the same from everyone and have roads that are equal to Mexico's? Shall we have water and sewer systems equal to Guatamala? We are all able to enjoy a first class existance because people who have greater resources pay more.

 

It is easy to argue that anytime one American pays more than another, regardless of income, it is unfair. But then we live in the American based on the tax bill of the poorest among us.

 

If we then decide that we want a better America, then someone will be paying more.

[YASNY]

Just the fact that anyone can get "teary eyed" watching some rich politician spew bulls*** .... and that goes for any politician of either party ... is what made me :puke .

 

They are all a bunch of phony hypocritical bulls*** artists. Oh, I forgot the word "rich" in my last sentence. If anyone thinks the Dems are for the poor people or the working man, they're nucking futs!

[kapkomet]

Just the fact that anyone can get "teary eyed" watching some rich politician spew bulls*** .... and that goes for any politician of either party ... is what made me  :puke .

 

They are all a bunch of phony hypocritical bulls*** artists.  Oh, I forgot the word "rich" in my last sentence.  If anyone thinks the Dems are for the poor people or the working man, they're nucking futs!

EXACTLY.

 

John Kerry is the richest US Senator, but he feels our pain, to coin a phrase.

 

PURE BULLs***.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

Are we ready for yet another November of "Choose your aristocrat?"

[cwsox]

I pray that there will never be a time when eloquence from a public leader does not inspire me as a citizen and as an American.

 

I richly doubt that Kerry is the richest US Senator. He may be in the upper percentiles, but rhetoric without fact is empty.

 

I far more trust the Democratric party with representing the values and hopes and dreams and aspirations of the working class far, far, far more than I do the Republican party even tough both G W Bush and Dick Cheney were born in poverty and worked long hours in the mills every day to puy food for their widowed grandmothers. If anyone here is so partisanly blind that they think that they can convince us that the grandson of a US Senator and son of a US President, a person who grew up in money and privilege in the ruling class, is anything other than what he is, then they have convinced themselves and no one else.

 

 

Apu, the name of the game in November is pick yur US Supreme Coourt judges, 3 next year very probably. including a chief justice, I would recommend you consider which party will choose what type of justice candidate. I am unconvinced that anyone of your general beliefs who abstains from voting for Kerry really cares about what direction this country is going. Idoelogical purity is fine but the next president determines the direction of the US Supmeme Counrt for the next generation. One can stand by the side of the river and watch the torrent and never get one's feet wet and say, "oh, how dry am I" but it is the people who venture out into the flood who get caught up in the mud and the mire and muck that are the ones that save a few lives.

 

You know Apu how strenuously I opposed this ill conceived and wrong war against Iraq. There is no way that right now we can just pull the troops out and go home, leaving behind the chaos we have created. I far more trust Kerry to extricate our troops in a way that does good and not harm. In fact, only Kerry of the two candidates offers the possibility of a responsible US withdrawal, responsible to the change political reality that exists with Iraq now that the invasion and occupation are factual, responsible in a way that allows the US to regain respect and collegiality in the world community as opposed to the current regime's stance of Imperial Rome which makes us only more vulnerable in the future.

[kapkomet]

One of the things in cw's last post that I agree with, and it's NOT just GWB that has made this country this way...

 

We are so much like the Roman Empire was, it's frightening.

 

(Yea, that's a generalization... but think about it...)

 

And cw, YEA! You won't be swayed by eloquence of a speaker, ahem, like Al Gore, who "brought tears to your eyes...".

 

*sigh*

 

Unfortunately, we are all swayed by it. Says alot about our culture, doesn't it?

 

And, our culture seems to be really swayed by one certain "F. 9/11" film out there... hmmmm.....

[LowerCaseRepublican]

CW, I respect your opinion but I cannot willingly suspend my disbelief to believe that Kerry will do anything to the opposite of Bush.

 

PATRIOT Act - Voted For

War in Iraq - Voted For

NCLB - Voted For

 

There is no belief that Kerry is the clear alternative for Bush. Both want to continue the war in Iraq for years on end (and the way other nations have been snubbed, I doubt that even Kerry could get them to assist us). Both want more non-violent drug offenders who have personal amounts to be thrown in prison rather than be rehabilitated. Both want to continue our unqualified support for Israel and Colombia. Both want to continue the destructive policies of the School of the Americas (now known as the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation) in Central and South America. I could continue for a long time...

 

Bush doesn't give a s*** about normal people. Neither does Kerry. Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining, Kerry and Bush. There is no reasonable belief that Kerry will somehow buck his record and campaign rhetoric and appoint judges who will not be neo-conservative Federalist Society shills like Scalia. While Bush appointing more neo-con asshats to the bar scares me, I know IL is a safe state and I feel able to vote for a 3rd party candidate because of my severe dissatisfaction with both members of the bumbling War Party.

[cwsox]

third party candidate - Nader who has taken aid from the republicans in Michigan and anti-gay forces in oregon, just to get his name on the ballot like any other politican?

 

the key is who listens to who and Kerry listens to people you and I both prefer

 

I have great respect for you as you know, my brother -

 

the first step to what we want is taking our country back and in November one of two things happens: Kerry wins or Bush wins. There are no other options.

 

Power and strength to you, keep fighting the fight, because in everything you do, you fight for me too.

[kapkomet]

Don't pee on my leg and tell me it's raining, Kerry and Bush.

 

[YASNY]

As far as the Supreme Court goes, I'd much rather the Republican Party choose who gets on the bench. But that's just my opinion, and I respect those that believe differently.

 

However, I do not trust GWB with my constitution. That's right, I claim the US Constitution as mine, since I am a US citizen. They (BOTH parties) need to keep their grubby hands off of it. There is no need for an amendment defining marriage. Let the states handle that one. Once, they open a constitutional convention, ANYTHING can be amended to it. It does not have to be the issue that 2/3 of the states ratified to call the convention. That is what scares me about any proposed amendment to the constitution.

 

As for Kerry, I just think he's a moron. He's as much of a two faced hypocrit as any of them in DC. I am so disgusted by the choices in this upcoming election that it thoroughly sickens me.

[kapkomet]

As for Kerry, I just think he's a moron.  He's as much of a two faced hypocrit as any of them in DC. I am so disgusted by the choices in this upcoming election that it thoroughly sickens me.

Preach on, brother...

[Texsox]

"The issue of government is not to determine who may sleep together in the bedroom, it's to help those that might not be eating in the kitchen."

Al Sharpton 2004 Democratic National Convention

 

Amen brother.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

As far as the Supreme Court goes, I'd much rather the Republican Party choose who gets on the bench.  But that's just my opinion, and I respect those that believe differently.

 

However, I do not trust GWB with my constitution.  That's right, I claim the US Constitution as mine, since I am a US citizen.  They (BOTH parties) need to keep their grubby hands off of it.  There is no need for an amendment defining marriage.  Let the states handle that one.  Once, they open a constitutional convention, ANYTHING can be amended to it.  It does not have to be the issue that 2/3 of the states ratified to call the convention.  That is what scares me about any proposed amendment to the constitution.

 

As for Kerry, I just think he's a moron.  He's as much of a two faced hypocrit as any of them in DC. I am so disgusted by the choices in this upcoming election that it thoroughly sickens me.

Traditional Republicans (smaller government, keep government out of peoples' personal lives except when necessary i.e. warrants etc.) would be good to appoint people to the bench. There are a lot of areas where traditional Republicans (as compared to neo-conservatives) agree with the left wing (not neo-liberals). They don't agree economically all the time but in civil liberties and personal freedoms, they both are quite progressive in that regard.

 

And I concur that I don't trust GWB with the Constitution. (I can't trust Ashcroft either...opening up medical records of women who had abortions is OK but it is wrong to do background checks to see if people on the terrorist watch list purchased guns is a big no no)

 

This election is looking s***tier and s***tier.

[kapkomet]

And the whole "Gay Marriage" amendment.

 

That really pissed me off.

 

GWB is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY wrong on that one.

[Kid Gleason]

I didn't read all of this stuff, but I do just want to say that even with what has gone on since Bush has taken office, I am STILL damn glad that f***ing dolt of a person named Al Gore never stepped foot in the White House. And CW, your being a fan of Eminem should atleast be thankful that Tipper never got in there. If she did, Eminem surely would have been shipped to Siberia.

[southsider2k5]

And the whole "Gay Marriage" amendment.

 

That really pissed me off.

 

GWB is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY wrong on that one.

Definately

[cwsox]

Preach on, brother...

 

When Tex argues that he can criticise America or Israel and that does not mean he hates America or Israel, so many understand. 

 

Not enough.

 

Oops, I made a terrible mistake and what appears above was not written by CW, but by me. Sorry for any embarassment I caused CW.

Texsox

Edited July 29, 2004 by Texsox

[kapkomet]

QUOTE (kapkomet @ Jul 29 2004, 06:06 AM)

Preach on, brother...

 

 

 

 

QUOTE 

When Tex argues that he can criticise America or Israel and that does not mean he hates America or Israel, so many understand.

 

 

 

Not enough.

 

What the hell? I never said "when Tex argues... "

 

What are you trying to say here?

[Steff]

Hmmm.. something's missing from this thread.. rolleyeyes.gif

[kapkomet]

oooooooohhhh... the editor is here?

 

Ok.

 

Got it.

[Texsox]

What the hell?  I never said "when Tex argues... "

 

What are you trying to say here?

I am trying to say that not enough people understand that I love America and Israel. Actually if I could just convince one more . . .

 

How did my post show up as CW?? Something is goofy.

[kapkomet]

No Tex ... that wasn't the point. I never said that quote... I think there was a mistake in editing. And that's fine... I was just trying to clarify because I never said that and if you look at the way it's quoted it appears that I did.

 

It's probably just a misunderstanding.