Let's see if I have this straight

[kapkomet]

Let's see now.

 

Based on the speeches of the last 3 days (I can't wait for tomorrow's):

 

I will get healthcare from my government.

 

I will get financial security for retirement from my government.

 

I will get education for my children from the government.

 

I might as well just quit, become a poor ass, and let the government take care of me. Anyone else in?

 

--------

 

I'm not so stupid and naive to think we don't have issues and problems in this country. But, to listen to this slobber, the government will do it all for us. And that's wrong to me.

[cwsox]

I will get healthcare from my government.

 

I will get financial security for retirement from my government.

 

I will get education for my children from the government.

 

 

 

 

 

Every child, every American, deserves those things.

 

And this very wealthy nation can afford to take care of the least and all of our brothers and sisters.

 

We as a nation have the means and the wealth to do what we want.

 

I choose to take care of children, the elderly, and those with health insurance.

 

That is my America.

 

And we are taking it back from those who scoff at education for children, health care for those who need it, and security from poverty for the elderly.

 

Read your preamble to the Constitution.

 

It does not say provide for the wealthiest Americans and the corporations.

 

It says provide for the common welfare.

 

And if America is to be worth what it says it is for, my country can and will do it.

 

It is time to stop waging class warfare against the poor and elderly and children and be America again.

 

Whatever decisions you make as to how to live your life, it is your moral decision.

[kapkomet]

But when does it become necessary for people to fend for themselves?

 

This type of rhetoric makes people want to do NOTHING.

 

People have to want to succeed. If they want to, they will, because MY AMERICA allows that to happen, not this "Two Americas" bull s***.

[Be Good]

I will get healthcare from my government.

 

I will get financial security for retirement from my government.

 

I will get education for my children from the government.

 

 

 

 

 

Every child, every American, deserves those things.

 

And this very wealthy nation can afford to take care of the least and all of our brothers and sisters.

 

We as a nation have the means and the wealth to do what we want.

 

I choose to take care of children, the elderly, and those with health insurance.

 

That is my America.

 

And we are taking it back from those who scoff at education for children, health care for those who need it, and security from poverty for the elderly.

 

Read your preamble to the Constitution.

 

It does not say provide for the wealthiest Americans and the corporations.

 

It says provide for the common welfare.

 

And if America is to be worth what it says it is for, my country can and will do it.

 

It is time to stop waging class warfare against the poor and elderly and children and be America again.

 

Whatever decisions you make as to how to live your life, it is your moral decision.

Great speech Vincent

[kapkomet]

By the way, In September, I'll have the "Lets get this straight" from NYC. It'll be the same damn thing I'm pretty sure.

 

:fyou politics.

[EvilMonkey]

What about the class warfare against the middle and upper class? Many of those people worked their asses off to get what they have, yet are railed against as evil people. I worked hard to own my own business, I provide paychecks to 6 people, 5 of whom have families. I grease the wheels of commerce at a high level, as well as the damn wheels of taxation. I pay about $3500 a year in unemployment 'insurance', even though I have not laid anyone off in 13 years. What little money I have left is mine, and I want to keep it. If I feel like helping people,I do. And I have done. Remember one time when Gore's tax returns were made public? It showed that for all the hundreds of thousands of dollars he made, that he gave something like $300 that year to charity. Hell, I can beat that, and do, every year. I pay a hefty portion of my income in taxes. I also get nailed for everything under the sun being a business owner. Extra taxes on phone bills, water bills, electric bills, etc. Money to be licensed in the village. Money to the state each year to be incorporated. matching the ss deducted from my employees checks. While I may agree with you somewhat on the healthcare issue and the education issue, I don't think the government has any responsibility for my financial security in retirement. It is called savings! or IRA's. Or even family! I seem to recall a story about the ant and the grasshopper. Keep up this wealth redistribution, and we will have a nation of grasshoppers!

[kapkomet]

What about the class warfare against the middle and upper class?  Many of those people worked their asses off to get what they have, yet are railed against as evil people.  I worked hard to own my own business, I provide paychecks to 6 people, 5 of whom have families.  I grease the wheels of commerce at a high level, as well as the damn wheels of taxation.  I pay about $3500 a year in unemployment 'insurance', even though I have not laid anyone off in 13 years.  What little money I have left is mine, and I want to keep it.  If I feel like helping people,I do.  And I have done.  Remember one time when Gore's tax returns were made public?  It showed that for all the hundreds of thousands of dollars he made, that he gave something like $300 that year to charity.  Hell, I can beat that, and do, every year.  I pay a hefty portion of my income in taxes.  I also get nailed for everything under the sun being a business owner.  Extra taxes on phone bills, water bills, electric bills, etc.  Money to be licensed in the village. Money to the state each year to be incorporated.  matching the ss deducted from my employees checks.  While I may agree with you somewhat on the healthcare issue and the education issue, I don't think the government has any responsibility for my financial security in retirement.  It is called savings!  or IRA's.  Or even family!  I seem to recall a story about the ant and the grasshopper.  Keep up this wealth redistribution, and we will have a nation of grasshoppers!

[YASNY]

What about the class warfare against the middle and upper class?  Many of those people worked their asses off to get what they have, yet are railed against as evil people.  I worked hard to own my own business, I provide paychecks to 6 people, 5 of whom have families.  I grease the wheels of commerce at a high level, as well as the damn wheels of taxation.  I pay about $3500 a year in unemployment 'insurance', even though I have not laid anyone off in 13 years.  What little money I have left is mine, and I want to keep it.  If I feel like helping people,I do.  And I have done.  Remember one time when Gore's tax returns were made public?  It showed that for all the hundreds of thousands of dollars he made, that he gave something like $300 that year to charity.  Hell, I can beat that, and do, every year.  I pay a hefty portion of my income in taxes.  I also get nailed for everything under the sun being a business owner.  Extra taxes on phone bills, water bills, electric bills, etc.  Money to be licensed in the village. Money to the state each year to be incorporated.  matching the ss deducted from my employees checks.  While I may agree with you somewhat on the healthcare issue and the education issue, I don't think the government has any responsibility for my financial security in retirement.  It is called savings!  or IRA's.  Or even family!  I seem to recall a story about the ant and the grasshopper.  Keep up this wealth redistribution, and we will have a nation of grasshoppers!

You should change your handle to EvilCapitalist.

 

Good rant.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

EvilMonkey, there is a difference between capitalism and crony capitalism which is going on currently in the US.

 

I don't think the government should keep a retirement net for people because the only times it would be necessary would be to pay for skyrocking health care etc. (health care which should be covered by our government, IMO)

 

And EvilMonkey...taxes are getting outrageous for small business owners and everyday John and Jane Q. Public. Since my family is now living near the raceway, our property taxes are going up a ton because so many people are moving here to be nearby the race tracks, etc. But I understand that taxes go to paying firefighters, police and teachers for instance. According to the Dept. of Labor, the annual income for a firefighter in 2000 was $34,000, cops $37,000. The DoD stats on basic pay for active duty officers in his first two years is about $25,000. Teachers make about $28,000 on average (most class materials and supplies come out of the teacher's own budget since often times the school does not have enough money) There is a direct correlation between how much we pay in taxes and who we say are our "national heroes."

 

I've made posts about it before about how government misuses funds (i.e. giving the Air Force 100+ more refueling jets AFTER the AF said that they did not need them). The Pentagon currently cannot account for $1,000,000,000 in an internal audit they performed. A 15% cut in the Pentagon budget keeps our safety ensured militarily but also opens the door for funding education, health care and other social programs. They have the cash, they just need to spend it in non-idiotic ways (like not spending it in corporate welfare)

 

The tax burden has shifted though in this country. Due to "tax motivated expatriation" - a corporate phrase for freeloading - a tax loophole that allows US companies to enjoy all the benefits provided by their government without having to pay for them. But the companies don't have to move to the Bahamas, just the money. They set up a PO box on the island and tax free money hording begins. Of course they say that it is a "cost cutting measure" for the cost of their item. Yes...well fraud, child labor and slavery are also cost cutting measures that could be justified with their argument for not paying taxes. The IRS believes that $70 billion is siphoned from the US Treasury every year (approx. all the cash spend on TWAT in the 1st year).

 

Unfortunately for us, politicians are like smack addicts...but addicted to cash contributions. There is a good book "Pigs at the Trough" that does a good job at lampooning a lot of politicians, both D and R, for being whores for corporate dollars. None of them want to close the loophole because that would mean a shutoff of millions that they get from different companies currently benefiting from the offshore tax havens. Just imagine if you tried moving all your funds to the Bahamas as John or Jane Q. Public and demanded that your money be tax free. You'd get your ass thrown in jail faster than Superman folding clothes on laundry day. That's what the "war on the upper echelons of capitalism" is about...things like the maldistribution of Congressional cash in the form of corporate welfare and tax havens amongst other things...but this post is too damn long already, hah.

 

Health care should be provided for us by the government by using well attributed tax dollars that we are already paying. I'm talking about necessary procedures not cosmetic surgery. HMOs and PPOs are not helping people and we have 42 million+ without any health care. Education should also be covered through college, IMO. We want a nation of smart people that will run the country in the future, so it is in our best interest to get them the best education possible. The disparities in many school districts caused by redlining etc. don't give an even playing field to all people. As was stated in the Jenna Bush thread, inner city schools are at a severe disadvantage compared to suburban schools. By paying for education we better the nation and we allow people to not be buried underneath the debt of college loans etc. before they even work one day in their professional career.

[southsider2k5]

Let's see now.

 

Based on the speeches of the last 3 days (I can't wait for tomorrow's):

 

I will get healthcare from my government.

 

I will get financial security for retirement from my government.

 

I will get education for my children from the government.

 

I might as well just quit, become a poor ass, and let the government take care of me.  Anyone else in?

 

--------

 

I'm not so stupid and naive to think we don't have issues and problems in this country.  But, to listen to this slobber, the government will do it all for us.  And that's wrong to me.

And you forgot, cut the deficit in half in two years.... rolleyeyes.gif

[Controlled Chaos]

What about the class warfare against the middle and upper class?  Many of those people worked their asses off to get what they have, yet are railed against as evil people.  I worked hard to own my own business, I provide paychecks to 6 people, 5 of whom have families.  I grease the wheels of commerce at a high level, as well as the damn wheels of taxation.  I pay about $3500 a year in unemployment 'insurance', even though I have not laid anyone off in 13 years.  What little money I have left is mine, and I want to keep it.  If I feel like helping people,I do.  And I have done.  Remember one time when Gore's tax returns were made public?  It showed that for all the hundreds of thousands of dollars he made, that he gave something like $300 that year to charity.  Hell, I can beat that, and do, every year.  I pay a hefty portion of my income in taxes.  I also get nailed for everything under the sun being a business owner.  Extra taxes on phone bills, water bills, electric bills, etc.  Money to be licensed in the village. Money to the state each year to be incorporated.  matching the ss deducted from my employees checks.  While I may agree with you somewhat on the healthcare issue and the education issue, I don't think the government has any responsibility for my financial security in retirement.  It is called savings!  or IRA's.  Or even family!  I seem to recall a story about the ant and the grasshopper.  Keep up this wealth redistribution, and we will have a nation of grasshoppers!

[sox4lifeinPA]

personal medical savings accounts that are required for every working person in the US, would cover costs for typical hospital/doctor visits. All we have to do is look at Singapore, England, etc to figure out how to effectively provide ACCESS to basic health care... The role of the the US gov't is NOT to PROVIDE basic health care.

 

People are ignorant and foolish with their money. Gov't handouts have to stop (unless you're too old, too young, or medically unable to work). Require people to put away $$ for health care (matched by their employer) and you'll find a solution to the problem.

 

by the way, I love how Rob Reiner is sitting in the luxury boxes at the DNC (Sans smile), while John Edwards says " and how will we pay for these things? roll back the tax cuts for the 2% wealthiest americans"

 

How does anyone making more than a million a year support anyone on the left?

[Texsox]

What about the class warfare against the middle and upper class?  Many of those people worked their asses off to get what they have, yet are railed against as evil people.  I worked hard to own my own business, I provide paychecks to 6 people, 5 of whom have families.  I grease the wheels of commerce at a high level, as well as the damn wheels of taxation.  I pay about $3500 a year in unemployment 'insurance', even though I have not laid anyone off in 13 years.  What little money I have left is mine, and I want to keep it.  If I feel like helping people,I do.  And I have done.  Remember one time when Gore's tax returns were made public?  It showed that for all the hundreds of thousands of dollars he made, that he gave something like $300 that year to charity.  Hell, I can beat that, and do, every year.  I pay a hefty portion of my income in taxes.  I also get nailed for everything under the sun being a business owner.  Extra taxes on phone bills, water bills, electric bills, etc.  Money to be licensed in the village. Money to the state each year to be incorporated.  matching the ss deducted from my employees checks.  While I may agree with you somewhat on the healthcare issue and the education issue, I don't think the government has any responsibility for my financial security in retirement.  It is called savings!  or IRA's.  Or even family!  I seem to recall a story about the ant and the grasshopper.  Keep up this wealth redistribution, and we will have a nation of grasshoppers!

It costs a little more to live in a 1st Class country. We could base our society on the lowest common denominator. Would you prefer a few more begers outside you door? Some more road congestion? Perhaps taking days and weeks to clear products through customs instead of hours? Waiting hours for an overseas telephone line? Corrupt government officials taking bribes to augment paltry salaries? Water that always needs to be boiled? Sewage in our lakes, steams, and rivers?

 

Do you want a US that is based on what the poorest among us can afford, or what we collectively can afford? I do not mind paying more than the average in my income tax. I travel 20 miles west of my door and visit Mexico. I see what cheaper taxes buy.

[kapkomet]

Tex,

 

I like my highways and biways just like the rest of us here, save the people that have to deal with the Dan Ryan everyday.

 

But, it is NOT the government that should provide. Otherwise, there is no reason for anyone to go out and achieve anything. Why should I bust my ass to become a person with $250,000 a year (roughly where the "rich" line is currently defined) if all I have to do is sit on my $20,000 a year and get the same damn benefits provided by my government because they are going to tax the s*** out of the "rich" folks for me to sit on my ass?

 

There HAS to be incentive to be successful, and our government providing for everything certainly doesn't provide incentive to a hell of a lot of people.

 

This is a hard issue, because there are so many people that don't have anything. It sucks. I give quite a bit of money to charitable organizations to do my part (and I don't make anywhere close to enough to get a tax write off for it either). I'm not saying that's the answer, but I certainly do not support our government to be here to put food on my table, pay for my insurance, provide my education, and provide my retirement either.

 

Like I said at the beginning of this, if I listen to these assclowns, I don't have to do a f***in' thing because the rich will get their money taken from them to pay for my lazy ass to sit and not do a damn thing. That's bull s***.

[Queen Prawn]

if all I have to do is sit on my $20,000 a year and get the same damn benefits provided by my government because they are going to tax the s*** out of the "rich" folks for me to sit on my ass?

FWIW, my sister makes just above that (working 40+ hrs a week). The only benefit she gets is a medical card for her son, that's it. She is trying to change her situation though, she is planning to go back and finish her degree soon (either this fall or spring - she's filling out paperwork as I write this).

 

Kate-> -> Megan

 

I know that isn't the case all around for people that make 20-30K a year, but just wanted to make a note that there are some that use government help to get them out of their troubles, not as a crutch for the rest of their lives.

[kapkomet]

And Queen, that's the point. When you need a helping hand, yea, that should be done.

 

But to listen to all these polticians, Dems and Repubs, they all promise us the moon. It's disgraceful.

[Queen Prawn]

But to listen to all these polticians, Dems and Repubs, they all promise us the moon.  It's disgraceful.

I don't disagree with that whatsoever. It just seems that there are so many out there taking advantage of the system that those who use it is as it is intended (a helping hand, not a way of life) are over looked.

[LowerCaseRepublican]

But to listen to all these polticians, Dems and Repubs, they all promise us the moon.  It's disgraceful.

Well, Kap...technically Bush didn't promise us the moon...just a base on the moon.

[kapkomet]

Oh yea, he promised us Mars. rolleyeyes.gif

 

[sox4lifeinPA]

john edwards wants to eliminate the poverty line..................

 

uh, do I need to even explain why that's "un-possible"???

[kapkomet]

Probably.

 

Because there's "two Ameeeerikas".

 

That is such bull s***. It's preposterous and flat out wrong.

 

There is ONE America.

[Rex Kickass]

Here's a question. Why is it irresponsible to ask those that make the most to sacrifice a portion of their tax cuts to pay for the soldiers needs in a time of war? The republican party thought it was.

 

The question I keep asking myself is this:

Why is it an honor to die for your country but a burden to pay your damn taxes?

Stop whining. Last time I checked, people who make lots of money are doing just fine in this country. Apparently fine enough that all the problems in their world seem to boil down to one or two percentage points in a tax bracket. You know, when I wondered about whether or not I'd be able to stay afloat in my salary frozen job last year, I would have thought that complaint to be a luxury.

[kapkomet]

Here's a question.

 

Why should people that have busted their ass and worked like hell to get what they have have to support a bunch of people who don't want to work and buck the system?

 

I'm not rich. I pay my taxes like everyone else. I'm fine with that.

 

I own a house. I pay taxes for that right. Those taxes go to my school system where I don't have any children attending. But it's for the greater good, so I'm "happy" to do that.

 

I own a car. I had to pay sales tax for that right to own it. Those sales taxes go toward the state treasury to support kids on medicaid. I'm "happy" to do that.

 

I buy food - except for the milk and bread I pay tax on that, too. I'm "happy" to eat.

 

I have health insurance - which my company pays a part of. I don't hear the "rich" owner b****ing about it. He knows that is a part of making a successful company.

 

It is really irritating to hear people whine about where they are in life. You have to invest in yourself. You have to want and desire more ... and I'll tell you something, every time I get "more", I give more and more back to not only the government, but to charities and to families that need it when I hear of someone losing their job, etc. etc. etc.

 

Most "rich" poeple do that. Not all, which is where the anger and hatred seem to stem.

 

I just have such a philosophical difference when it comes to the government providing everything under the sun ... this stuff is not a God-given right, it's something you have to work for and achieve and not just get handed to you.

 

I better quit rambling.

[Controlled Chaos]

The 'working poor' scam

 

BusinessWeek magazine has joined the chorus of misleading rhetoric about "the working poor." Why is this misleading? Let me count the ways.

 

First of all, Census data show that most people who are working are not poor and most people who are poor are not working. The front-page headline on the May 31st issue of BusinessWeek says: "One in four workers earns $18,800 a year or less, with few if any benefits. What can be done?"

 

Buried inside is an admission that about a third of these are part-time workers and another third are no more than 25 years old. So we are really talking about one-third of one fourth -- or fewer than 10 percent of the workers -- who are "working poor" in any full-time, long-run sense.

 

Nevertheless, the personal human interest stories and the photographs in the article are about people in this one-twelfth, even though the statistics are about the one-fourth.

 

As for "What can be done?" that is a misleading question because the article is about what other people can do for the "working poor," not what they can do for themselves, much less what they did in the past -- or failed to do -- that led to their having such low earning capacity.

 

The theme is that these are people trapped by external circumstances, and words like "moxie" and "gumption" are mentioned only sarcastically to be dismissed, along with "Horatio Alger." But the cold fact is that what the intelligentsia call the American Dream is no dream.

 

An absolute majority of the people who were in the bottom 20 percent in income in 1975 have since then also been in the top 20 percent. This inconvenient fact has been out there for years -- and has been ignored for years by those who want more government programs to relieve individuals from responsibility for making themselves more productive and therefore higher income earners.

 

While the economy is "rewarding the growing ranks of educated knowledge workers," BusinessWeek says, this is not so for "workers who lack skills and training." In a country with free education available through high school and heavily subsidized state colleges and universities, why do some people lack skills and training?

 

More important, what is likely to cause them to get skills and training -- pay differentials or largess in money or in kind from the taxpayers as "entitlements"?

 

This is an agenda article and facts that get in the way of the welfare state agenda get little attention, if any. Meanwhile, notions that have no factual basis are asserted boldly.

 

For example: "Working one's way up the ladder is becoming harder, not easier." Evidence? Wage rates for people in the bottom 20 percent have not risen much over the past 30 years.

 

The fallacy here is that it is not the same people in the bottom 20 percent over the past 30 years. Most people in the bottom 20 percent do not stay there even one decade, much less three. Young, inexperienced beginners do not remain young or inexperienced or beginners their whole lives.

 

Some people, of course, never learn -- and never rise. Creating entitlements for them reduces any need to learn. But that is the way BusinessWeek urges us to go.

 

They want higher minimum wages imposed, despite evidence that minimum wage laws reduce employment. Why would anyone think that making labor more costly would not affect employment, when higher prices reduce the amount of anything else that is bought?

 

BusinessWeek wants "better day-care options" -- "especially for single moms." In other words, unmarried girls should have babies and expect the taxpayers to pick up the tab for taking care of them. And if we subsidize such irresponsible decisions, will that not have the same effects as subsidizing other things?

 

Another liberal notion promoted by BusinessWeek is making it "easier to form unions." Workers can get unionized right now just by voting for a union in a government-supervised election. How much easier should it be?

 

The problem is not a difficulty in forming unions. What has happened is that workers themselves increasingly vote against unions because they have learned the hard way that unions cost jobs, even if BusinessWeek is unwilling to learn that lesson.

 

 

 

 

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/thomass...s20040601.shtml

[Texsox]

Tex,

 

I like my highways and biways just like the rest of us here, save the people that have to deal with the Dan Ryan everyday.

 

But, it is NOT the government that should provide.  Otherwise, there is no reason for anyone to go out and achieve anything.  Why should I bust my ass to become a person with $250,000 a year (roughly where the "rich" line is currently defined) if all I have to do is sit on my $20,000 a year and get the same damn benefits provided by my government because they are going to tax the s*** out of the "rich" folks for me to sit on my ass?

 

There HAS to be incentive to be successful, and our government providing for everything certainly doesn't provide incentive to a hell of a lot of people.

 

This is a hard issue, because there are so many people that don't have anything.  It sucks.  I give quite a bit of money to charitable organizations to do my part (and I don't make anywhere close to enough to get a tax write off for it either).  I'm not saying that's the answer, but I certainly do not support our government to be here to put food on my table, pay for my insurance, provide my education, and provide my retirement either.

 

Like I said at the beginning of this, if I listen to these assclowns, I don't have to do a f***in' thing because the rich will get their money taken from them to pay for my lazy ass to sit and not do a damn thing.  That's bull s***.

Does anybody really believe you can own a three bedroom, take a vacation, send your kids to a decent school, etc. while living on welfare? You are vastly overestimating what welfare buys you.

 

Should the guy making $250,000 have better roads to drive on? Should his calls to police be answered quicker? Should his garbage be picked up more frequently?

 

Again I ask, do you want to live in the America that the poorest can build? If we want everything to be "fair and equal" let's tax everyone the same. If it is decided that the most someone making $18,000 can pay is $1,500, let's tax everyone that and live with the America it can buy. So we have less Troops with worse equipment, our FAA has les money for defense, our roads aren't as nice. At least the folks that make more money can keep it.

 

No one who has worked hard to earn more had their lifestyle get worse because of it. Working hard and earning mroe is still rewarded in America.