From the Yankee Boards

[witesoxfan]

This guy is in for a rude awakening.  What's Loazia's era the last 2 months?

Over 6.00

[qwerty]

Yeah, that really bothers me. I remember the anouncers saying that it was adrenaline....but i don't know thats quite a change.

Adrenaline psh, there should be more adrenaline in every single start during the regular season than the all star game. The all star game doesn't mean a damn thing if you do not perform well enough in the regular season.

[SpringfieldFan]

I have to go on record as supporting the trade. Contreras has only been in the bigs a couple of years but before that was the best pitcher on the Cuban team, a team that *all* American teams have always had trouble beating (including the Orioles three or four years back). That aside I recall looking at his brief MLB highlights and recall a blurb about him coming back from an injury in 2003 and throwing 7 innings of 2 hit shutout ball, striking out 15 (!) in the process. It is hard to believe a guy could put up a game like that and not be something special, at least potentially.

[YASNY]

I've had to give this trade some serious thought before I formed an opinion. The Yankees were looking for a veteran pitcher that can eat some innings for them, and that's probably what they got. The Sox point of view is completely different. First, they knew they would lose Loaiza after the season because they were not going to pay him what he would be asking. Especially considering that they thought he was being lazy or holding back his best stuff. They know they'll have Contreras next year and think they can help him achieve his potential. If they can't do it with JC starting, they could make him a closer. In fact, I heard tried to get him for that role before they dump Koch. This is a gamble by the Sox, but one that could turn out one of a few ways and it be a good one. All in all, I can see why the Sox made this deal and I'll have to give it my official thumbs up.

[DBAHO]

Found this from a Twins Blog,

 

Which brings us to the trade the White Sox just made.

 

One minute before the trade deadline, the White Sox sent starting pitcher Esteban Loaiza to the New York Yankees for starting pitcher Jose Contreras and cash. It was almost immediately hailed on Twins bulletin boards as a "White Flag" trade, meaning the White Sox were giving up on this year. After all, the White Sox were trading one of their more reliable starting pitchers for an unproven 32-year-old sporting a 5.64 ERA.

 

However, it turns out that it isn't a White Flag trade for two reasons. First, because White Sox GM Kenny Williams says it isn't. And second, because a White Flag trade is supposed to enhance, as opposed to cripple, a team's future.

 

Williams was interviewed on ESPN radio within one hour of the deal being completed, and claimed that he had upgraded his pitching staff. By all accounts, Contreras has better "stuff" than Loaiza, but just hasn't had success. Williams claimed that Contreras has been tipping his pitches with the Yankees, and the White Sox coaching staff should be able to straighten him out. The obvious follow up question ("Umm, if the whole league is hitting Contreras because he's tipping his pitches, why wasn't every team trying to trade for him?") wasn't asked.

 

Gambling that one can turn a sow's ear into silk is fine, provided the cost isn't outrageous. But in this case the cost is prohibitive both over the next two months and over the next two years.

 

First, the White Sox are going to have to invest twelve starts in Contreras during a pennant race, instead of relying on the more stable Loaiza. Considering how much they're already gambling on this season and the ground they need to make up, any struggles he might endure could be the last nail in the coffin of Chicago's playoff hopes.

 

What's more, Contreras isn't just an unproven, aging prospect with a live arm. He's an unproven, aging prospect with a live arm that is guaranteed to make somewhere around $17 million over the next two years. That's almost exactly what they will pay their new ace, Freddy Garcia. And it's several million dollars more than Esteban Loaiza will probably demand when he signs as a free agent. But most importantly, it's money that can't be offered to retain Magglio Ordonez during the offseason.

 

Williams has pulled off some very nice moves in his tenure, like stealing Bartolo Colon for spare parts. What's more, he's almost always favored veterans over prospects when competing for a playoff spot. So why would he make a move that looks likely to hurt his team in the short and long term? Ther are at least two legitimate reasons that a GM would do that.

 

It's About the Cash

For some reason, Williams really wanted the cash that the Yankees included. Perhaps he expects a key player to be waived over the next month and he thinks he can use the cash to claim him.

 

Desperation Has Set In

Drastic times call for drastic measures. At the time of the trade, the White Sox were limping four games behind the Twins and without their two best hitters. Williams can't give up on the season - too much has been invested already - but didn't see much hope either. Without much offense, Loaiza's mediocre starts were likely to result in losses, so why not trade him for someone that might catch lighting in a bottle?

 

I suspect that the reason is more the latter than the former. If so, the White Sox fans are sniffing the same glue. Check out this poll on one of the more popular (and better) White Sox fan sites. Apparently going 78 years without a championship leads to mass delusion.

 

Either way, it's great news for Twins fans. Any player that is waived outright is more likely to hurt the White Sox chances in 2005 than he is to help the White Sox this year. And if this is all born of desperation, it shows that White Sox management evaluates their chances as being "slim" or "none"..

 

Regardless of the reasoning, they White Sox look like they just downgraded their starting rotation while reducing their ability to compete in the future. Unless Contreras, against all odds, becomes a savior in Chicago, we might soon hear Terry Ryan describe Chicago's predicament as "unfortunate".

[YASNY]

Eh, consider the source. This guy probably had a case of brain frostbite last winter. As bad as Loaiza has been lately, Contreras will probably pitch better than ELo.

[SoxAce]

Make or brake. Plain and simple.

[Jordan4life_2007]

Why do people keep saying Contreras has had NO success? 7-2 with a 3.30 era, including a breathtaking September last year isn't success? Only gave up 4 hr's in over 70 innings pitched? Held teams to a .202 batting average? Wow. I don't see any Success at all.

 

Sure he's been inconsistent this year. But he's had some really good starts to go along with the bad ones. The package and potential is there. I'm estatic that we have him.

[beck72]

There's no reason to expect Loaiza to throw like he did in 2003 for the rest of this year. And every reason to expect Este to get up over an 5.00 ERA. The Sox were lucky to get 6 IP and less than 4 runs per start from him for the last month and a half.

 

Contreras should be an upgrade over Este.

[Texsox]

Interesting take from one Minny fan's standpoint.

[Wong & Owens]

If Loaiza really was holding back on his good stuff that is really messed up. He is one of my favorite sox players, or former sox player. Why is it that he was holding back?...(if in fact he was holding back)

Er, a reason that Loaiza hit 93 in the All-Star game might have had something to do with the fact that he knew he was only going to pitch for an inning or two, and therefore didn't have to pace himself.

 

Why would a pitcher hold back in a contract year?

[Controlled Chaos]

Not sure what was posted on other threads on this subject. Sorry if anything is repeated.  My understanding is that Loaiza's #1 pitch is his cutter, which he has not thrown nearly as effective as last year. Mussina's down, Yanks need a starter. They couldn't get "Unit"  and Steinbrenner always  wants veterans in his rotation in the playoffs. Mariano Rivera's "out" pitch is his cutter. Yanks feel that Rivera can help Loaiza get back to form since the cutter is MR's specialty pitch.. They didn't want to wait and play around with Contreras anymore . They want to prepare for post season now.

            On our side.... On ESPN 1000 it was stated that that Ozzie was rather tired of Loaiza's lackadasiness attitude. If Elo got bombed, Ozzie wasn't real pleased with how he responded with an "Oh Well....." demeanor. Ozzie wants an  "I want to win NOW attitude from all his players.

          The one thing positive that was mentioned was that Garcia, Buehrle, and Garland are control pitchers. If Coop can help this guy out, it will give us a power pitcher in our mix, with one of the best splitters in the A.L.

              Torre mentioned that Contreras stuff great and dominating, but Loaiza has the better control overall.

              Steinbrenner is not a patient man. Who knows how much input he had into unloading Contreras. Hopefull things will work out. We'll know in about 4 or 5 starts.

Ozzie was rather tired of Loaiza's lackadasiness attitude. If Elo got bombed, Ozzie wasn't real pleased with how he responded with an "Oh Well....." demeanor.

 

I must admit I never thougth about Ozzie's involvement until I read it, but now I think this has as much to do with the trade than anything. I mean I looked at Este's lackluster year. I looked at the Yankee's wanting veterans. I looked at Yankee's not wanting to work with Contrearas any more. I looked at what's wrong with Contreras or what's wrong with Loaiza or what's right with both of them. I looked at a bunch of possible scenarios for the trade, but bottom line is....I don't think Ozzie really cared for E-Lo too much. I mean he called him out a few times this year...all the way back to spring training. I mean he didn't just say "some of our pitchers need to step up" He specifically called Este out. Maybe he told Kenny...if you can move him....DO IT. I'm not judging Ozzie...cause I don't know how Este's attitude was. Ozzie would know better than us.

 

All in all...I like the trade. Hopefully Contreras and his family can get comfortable here. He'll feel stable and start throwin lights out.

[LosMediasBlancas]

I'm not suggesting we dump Garland or Crede, just pointing out how Ozzie's comments seem to be inconsistent with his actions.

Garland will give up 4 runs in 6 innings, that should have been fine with what our offense was supposed to be producing.

Crede is a head case who can't get himself together within an at bat. In other words, he'll take that slow, long, uppercut hack (you know, the one he takes at every pitch) and then sulk. Not mentally tough enough to shrug it off yet.

[Controlled Chaos]

I'm not suggesting we dump Garland or Crede, just pointing out how Ozzie's comments seem to be inconsistent with his actions.

Garland will give up 4 runs in 6 innings, that should have been fine with what our offense was supposed to be producing.

Crede is a head case who can't get himself together within an at bat.  In other words, he'll take that slow, long, uppercut hack (you know, the one he takes at every pitch) and then sulk. Not mentally tough enough to shrug it off yet.

I don't really think Garland and Crede have an "oh well" attitude. I have seen Garland get pissed when he gets out of the game. He usually keeps his cool on the mound, but that doesn't necessarily mean an "oh well" attitude. As for Crede, he definitely seems introverted, but I don't think it has to do with not caring. Plus he is also a pretty dam good 3rd baseman, so if he's not hitting he is contributing in other ways.

 

I think the Loaiza move has alot to do with Ozzie not liking something about him. Whether it's his work ethic or attitude.....I don't know, but I'll trust Oz with his players.

[LosMediasBlancas]

Chaos, I think Garland was quoted as saying he wasn't gonna change anything about what he does when it was suggested that he needs to be more agressive on the mound. To me, that's an "oh well' attitude.

I'm new here, how do I post part of someone else's reply into mine??

[Yoda]

Chaos, I think Garland was quoted as saying he wasn't gonna change anything about what he does when it was suggested that he needs to be more agressive on the mound. To me, that's an "oh well' attitude.

I'm new here, how do I post part of someone else's reply into mine??

On your right hand click Quote (on whoever’s post you want to reply to) and it’ll appear on the same post you’ve posted. It’s really not hard.

[Controlled Chaos]

Chaos, I think Garland was quoted as saying he wasn't gonna change anything about what he does when it was suggested that he needs to be more agressive on the mound. To me, that's an "oh well' attitude.

I'm new here, how do I post part of someone else's reply into mine??

To include a previous post in your post click QUOTE on the original post.

 

 

It's possible Garland said that......If a reporter questioned me about being more aggresive I would probably say the same thing. He's not gonna say yeah your right....got any other tips?? He pitches the way he wants to pitch. I'm sure he listens to Coop...I've heard Coop talk about how hard Garland works with him. Besides, I'm not sure if aggresive means attacking hitters and pitching inside...which I totally agree with or if it means acting like an idiot like Zambrano. I like Garland's attitude on the bump....not too high not too low....he just needs to be more consistant.

 

Oh BTW, Welcome aboard!!

[Wedge]

Chaos, I think Garland was quoted as saying he wasn't gonna change anything about what he does when it was suggested that he needs to be more agressive on the mound. To me, that's an "oh well' attitude.

I'm new here, how do I post part of someone else's reply into mine??

Welcome aboard.

 

I think Garland is fine attitude wise. Maybe he'll break out someday, maybe he won't... we'll have to wait and see.

[LosMediasBlancas]

On your right hand click Quote (on whoever’s post you want to reply to) and it’ll appear on the same post you’ve posted. It’s really not hard.

I hope that worked, Thx guys.