beck72 Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Everyone knows how good Pierre is at the "small ball" concept Ozzie admires. And would be a perfect fit for the Sox. Yet most dismiss him as completely unavailable, that FLA would never give him up. But would they? This year, Castillo hit #1 for FLa. In 95 AB's, he hit .348. Hitting #2, his normal spot, Castillo hit only .276. Before Pierre came in 2003, Castillo was the leadoff man for them. If Pierre was dealt, Castillo [signed for 2 more yrs] could take his spot back. LoDuca has been hitting #2. Does FLA have anyone capable of playing CF for them, and who could replace Pierre? Yes. Juan Encarnacion is signed for 2005, at $4.35 mill. He has to be around, and can team w/ Miguel Cabrera. Yet in AA [where many of FLA's talent is-I didn't see a person under age 24 in AAA], they have a Pierre clone in Eric Reed. Reed has many of the same tools that Pierre has. And he was FLA's minor league player of the year in 2003. He went on the DL this year, for what I don't know. Reed will turn 24 this Dec. Another top prospect is 20 yr old Jeremy Hermida What does FLA need? Bullpen help [particularly LHP]. 1B. SS. Minor league depth at most positions. Power guys. [they were 12th in both HR's and SLG, yet 9th in BA and 10th in OBP] Pierre will make $3.6 mill in 2005, after making $2.5 mill this yr. What would be a reasonable offer for Pierre, knowing that FLA likes to pinch pennies? I'll start with: An offer of Marte [Ozzie hasn't seemed impressed by him, and it would be a blow to the 'pen, but you have to give up value to get value--and Cotts has had success vs both LH and RH hitters this year], Uribe, a AA minor leaguer or two [such as a bullpen guy like Matt Smith or Josh Fields--their AA affiliate also plays in the Southern league] for Pierre and Alex Gonzalez and his large 2005 contract]? FLA fills two spots for Pierre's contract, and gets rid of Gonzalez's $4 + million salary. FLA could use the money to sign FA's. The Sox could use Cotts in Marte's role [the sox would have to add a veteran or two anyway. Bullpen guys are easier to find and groom than CFers, though LH guys like Marte are hard to find], and have Gonzalez at SS, with Wilson Valdez in Uribe's UTL role. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 I'd think we'd need Jesus to step in for that one to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 and theres no way i want to give up Fields... i have a feeling Reed's gonna bite us in the ass... dont want that happening again. Part of me is just saying f*** trades, lets wait it out and let our minor leaguers make the majors before we trade them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 and theres no way i want to give up Fields... i have a feeling Reed's gonna bite us in the ass... dont want that happening again. Part of me is just saying f*** trades, lets wait it out and let our minor leaguers make the majors before we trade them! I'm talking the Josh Fields the bullpen guy in AA, not the 3B in w-s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 I'd think we'd need Jesus to step in for that one to happen. Okay Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reddy Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 i didnt know we had 2 josh fields... ok then... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 I'd like to do a trade for Juan but I don't know who'd they'd want that we could actually trade them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Pierre will not be going anywhere, close this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 Alex Gonzalez will make $3.4 million in 2005. FLA and their $42 million team salary will be hard pressed to keep him around. FLA would save a lot of cash on such a deal, almost as important as the talent thye'd get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremyb Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 I am fairly confident that a 2B platoon of Harris-Hairston can produce at a 370 OBP, 400 Slug pace next year. More than enough for a lead-off spot. With Lee in LF, Rowand in CF and Everett in RF, where do you play Pierre? Sure, I'd love to have JP in the 1-spot, which effectively pushes the 2B combo back to 9-spot, where they could toil with less pressure on them....but at what price? Florida won't just give him away. In fact, Marlins might not even want to part with him in the first place, I don't think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 i didnt know we had 2 josh fields... ok then... We also have two Carlos Lee's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 I am fairly confident that a 2B platoon of Harris-Hairston can produce at a 370 OBP, 400 Slug pace next year. More than enough for a lead-off spot. With Lee in LF, Rowand in CF and Everett in RF, where do you play Pierre? Sure, I'd love to have JP in the 1-spot, which effectively pushes the 2B combo back to 9-spot, where they could toil with less pressure on them....but at what price? Florida won't just give him away. In fact, Marlins might not even want to part with him in the first place, I don't think. Rowand can play in RF, with Pierre in CF. FLA would get talent in Marte and Uribe, and have an everyday SS who could post better offensive numbers than Gonzalez for less cash. FLA's bullpen is very weak, esp if Benitez becomes a FA. Mota, I'm not sure about. Marte is very valuable. But Oz keeps saying he hasn't seen the Marte of 2003 yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremyb Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 I am fairly confident that a 2B platoon of Harris-Hairston can produce at a 370 OBP, 400 Slug pace next year. More than enough for a lead-off spot. With Lee in LF, Rowand in CF and Everett in RF, where do you play Pierre? Sure, I'd love to have JP in the 1-spot, which effectively pushes the 2B combo back to 9-spot, where they could toil with less pressure on them....but at what price? Florida won't just give him away. In fact, Marlins might not even want to part with him in the first place, I don't think. Rowand can play in RF, with Pierre in CF. FLA would get talent in Marte and Uribe, and have an everyday SS who could post better offensive numbers than Gonzalez for less cash. FLA's bullpen is very weak, esp if Benitez becomes a FA. Mota, I'm not sure about. Marte is very valuable. But Oz keeps saying he hasn't seen the Marte of 2003 yet. No. Marte and Uribe stay. Too much talent, too cheap for Sox get rid of. And like it or not, either a healthy Magglio or a healthy Everett will be patroling RF in 2005. Unless of course Borchard blows everybody away in the next 5 weeks...which won't happen. See, Chone Figgins is another story altogether since he can actually play 2B/3B and will be cheap for another 2-3 years. Quicker swing than Pierre, smarter baserunner. Just entering his prime Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 No. Marte and Uribe stay. Too much talent, too cheap for Sox get rid of. And like it or not, either a healthy Magglio or a healthy Everett will be patroling RF in 2005. Unless of course Borchard blows everybody away in the next 5 weeks...which won't happen. See, Chone Figgins is another story altogether since he can actually play 2B/3B and will be cheap for another 2-3 years. Quicker swing than Pierre, smarter baserunner. Just entering his prime Marte and Uribe are more easily replaced than a very good leadoff man is. Marte and Cotts have basically the same numbers [ERA, yes, but MArte has had Shingo ready to bail him out--Cotts has had Gas Can Jackson to allow his runners in]. I'd sign a FA reliever who could set up or could close, in case Shingo fails in 2005. Uribe is basically a UTL player. As a starting SS, he'll have a .250 BA and a .300 OBP, basically what Jose will give w/o the power. Marte has looked lost this year, very hittable. I'd say he could be moved before teams catch on. Ozzie certainly isn't impressed. Shingo and others have had to bail him out numerous times Pierre is 27, also entering his prime. If he could be had, he'd be better than Figgins. Though I like Figgins and have stated that he could be traded for on other threads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Without jumping through all the what-if hoops here, one thing makes sense - Ozzie is very familiar with Florida players and it makes sense KW would try to get someone Guillen knows and is comfortable with. Whether that's a guy like Pierre or not, who knows. But the two teams traded with one another once this year and it could easily happen again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 Without jumping through all the what-if hoops here, one thing makes sense - Ozzie is very familiar with Florida players and it makes sense KW would try to get someone Guillen knows and is comfortable with. Whether that's a guy like Pierre or not, who knows. But the two teams traded with one another once this year and it could easily happen again. That's exactly why the Sox might "overpay" for a guy like Pierre, if he's the type of ballplayer Ozzie wants. FLA has a lot of holes, ala the Sox. Yet don't have the cash to fill them. At first glance, I thought Marte would be untradeable. But his numbers don't look good [hr's allowed, BB/ 9, lower K's, 0.82 G/ F ratio.] Cotts looks very comparable, in almost all categories except ERA [which is often reliant on other relievers. Like other teams have shown, ace set up men are tradeable and give a great return [Dotel, Mota]. And Marte's salary goes up the next few years. For some reason, I think Marte is in decline and could fetch a great price in terms of talent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeremyb Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 No. Marte and Uribe stay. Too much talent, too cheap for Sox get rid of. And like it or not, either a healthy Magglio or a healthy Everett will be patroling RF in 2005. Unless of course Borchard blows everybody away in the next 5 weeks...which won't happen. See, Chone Figgins is another story altogether since he can actually play 2B/3B and will be cheap for another 2-3 years. Quicker swing than Pierre, smarter baserunner. Just entering his prime Marte and Uribe are more easily replaced than a very good leadoff man is. Marte and Cotts have basically the same numbers [ERA, yes, but MArte has had Shingo ready to bail him out--Cotts has had Gas Can Jackson to allow his runners in]. I'd sign a FA reliever who could set up or could close, in case Shingo fails in 2005. Uribe is basically a UTL player. As a starting SS, he'll have a .250 BA and a .300 OBP, basically what Jose will give w/o the power. Marte has looked lost this year, very hittable. I'd say he could be moved before teams catch on. Ozzie certainly isn't impressed. Shingo and others have had to bail him out numerous times Pierre is 27, also entering his prime. If he could be had, he'd be better than Figgins. Though I like Figgins and have stated that he could be traded for on other threads. Hairston-Harris platoon (LHP/RHP) is more than capable of matching Juan Pierre OBP/OPS. The production is far from guaranteed, but the potential is definately there. Marte's having an off year, mechanics suprisingly erratic. Next year look for 2.25 ERA and OPS-A 575-ish. Very important part of the pen who will be missed when he is gone. Uribe is a stud - batspeed, all-field power, speed, range, arm, ability to play multiple positions well, cheap - you don't just give up on talent like that because he hasn't been consistent enough to duplicate his 1st half success in 2003 or 2004. Be patient. His batting eye could use improving, some mechanical tweaks in his swing are high on the priority list in the off-season.....he is young enough to turn the corner yet. Just watch. Figgins is more talented than Pierre, much cheaper and more versatile, too. We have no place for Pierre; we do for Figgins......Then again, neither speedster is likely going anywhere, and the last thing I want to see Sox do is grossely overpay. Don't try to rationalize this, just let it go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
He_Gawn Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Actually I heard earlier in the year that Pierre was on the block. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Pierre will not be going anywhere, close this. I thought nomar was not going any where either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Pierre will not be going anywhere, close this. I thought nomar was not going any where either. Well at 3:55 eastern time on the day of the trade deadline, yes I did not think Nomar was going anywhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Pierre will not be going anywhere, close this. I thought nomar was not going any where either. Well at 3:55 eastern time on the day of the trade deadline, yes I did not think Nomar was going anywhere. I agree with you i did not think he was gonna get traded, just giving you a hard time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Pierre will not be going anywhere, close this. I thought nomar was not going any where either. Well at 3:55 eastern time on the day of the trade deadline, yes I did not think Nomar was going anywhere. I agree with you i did not think he was gonna get traded, just giving you a hard time. of course, i know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted August 26, 2004 Author Share Posted August 26, 2004 Figgins is more talented than Pierre, much cheaper and more versatile, too. We have no place for Pierre; we do for Figgins......Then again, neither speedster is likely going anywhere, and the last thing I want to see Sox do is grossely overpay. Don't try to rationalize this, just let it go. Saying the Sox "have no place" for Pierre is laughable. But I guess guys with high OBP, avg, and who can steal bases are pretty useless around here. OK you win I'll let it go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Figgins is more talented than Pierre, much cheaper and more versatile, too. We have no place for Pierre; we do for Figgins......Then again, neither speedster is likely going anywhere, and the last thing I want to see Sox do is grossely overpay. Don't try to rationalize this, just let it go. Saying the Sox "have no place" for Pierre is laughable. But I guess guys with high OBP, avg, and who can steal bases are pretty useless around here. OK you win I'll let it go. I agree, there is a place for pierre on just about any team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted August 26, 2004 Share Posted August 26, 2004 Pierre will not be going anywhere, close this. You said that about Nomar and look what happened.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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