juddling Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 This story appeared in the Chicago Tribune back on August 22nd but i've waited till my anger went away before i posted about this. Last year at my daughters school in Sauk Village, a 4th grade boy was caught with a 9mm pellet gun in his bookbag and said he was planning on using it to take care of two boys who had been "messing" with him. (The boy also admitted he had been given the stolen gun by an older brother). The school district has a no tolerance policy so it's one strike and you are out. It's in the handbook the the parents of students sign at the beginning of the year and monthly notes sent home reminding people of this policy. The school district, following it's clear policy, suspended the boy for two years. So far so good.....but the boys grandmother, Sheila Howard, apparently can't understand why the school district did what they did and quickly got a lawyer and got her case into the courts. Howards lawsuit contends that school officials should have used discretion in punishing the boy and expulsion should be reserved for pupils bringing potentially lethal weapons to school. Howard also says that the district's superintendent, Dr. Ryan, gave her the alternatives of private schooling or home schooling and that neither are "realistic". On the 26th of last month, Cook County judge David Donnersberger ordered that the school district PAY for a tutor and test the kid to see if he should be allowed back into school. WHAT IN THE BLOODY HELL IS THIS f***IN' WORLD COMING TO???!!!!!!! (**a little background...my mom has worked in the school's front office since I went there in the 70's so i've heard all of this plus some stuff not reported in the paper.) Let's look at the facts..... 1. The kid admitted having the gun 2. The kid admitted he was planning on using the gun 3. The zero-tolerance policy is clearly spelled out in the handbook that every parent/guardian has to sign (Which Ms. Howard DID sign!) **Thanks mom** I would like to know what Ms. Howard thinks would have happened if her "good" boy would have succeeded in shooting the offending kids. (Here i must admit my ignorance...i'm not sure how powerfull a 9mm pellet gun is but i think it would still take an eye out) Do you think these kids would have gone after the kid or his grandmother??? NO!!! The school district would be at fault. I've written all the local papers about this but not sure what if anything will get printed. Some other questions i'd like to know is what kind of guardian is Ms. Howard when she's got one grandchild giving another one a "stolen" pellet gun and encourging him to use it to solve his problems. As it seems to be par for the course....the story has the usual quote from Grandma---"He's a good boy" "The no-tolerance policy is bad." Gee lady....i bet you didn't have that opinion about the policy before he broke it. now that one of your precious boys got caught it's the school's fault. I am damn glad that kid is not in my daughters school...it seems to me his siblings are already pushing him down a dangerous path and i don't want him around my little girl. **one last side note..i didn't want this to get too political but the judge that ruled in this case is a Democratic judge who ruled against my school district once before when a kid brought two box cutters to school and then kicked out. Guess what the judge did that time??!!!!** Thanks for the venting time. juddling Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Dude, I used to bring a pellet gun with me to school every day. To steal a line from Ray Liotta from the movie "Goodfellas": We did it all the time. It became routine after a while. We never even thought about it. It was no big deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Dude, I used to bring a pellet gun with me to school every day. To steal a line from Ray Liotta from the movie "Goodfellas": If you bring nail clippers to my school they will send you home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 If you bring nail clippers to my school they will send you home. What about scissors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 What about scissors? Well they supposedly have yo stay in the class at all times. Makes no sense to me because a damn pencil can do just as much damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Dude, I used to bring a pellet gun with me to school every day. To steal a line from Ray Liotta from the movie "Goodfellas": Dude, at the risk of violating the new posting rules, are you an idiot? MY kid goes to that school as well (Juddling is my brother), and in no way do I want that asshole let back in. The GRANDMOTHER had to sign a form saying that she READ the handbook, and understood what it says. In BIG LETTERS on the first page is the zero tolerance rule, where it expressly forbids firearms of ANY KIND. Can the grandmother read, or does she always just sign things without looking first. And why is this grandmother watching 5 grandkids? if she f***ed up her own kids bad enough that THEY can't be parents, what makes the courts think she will do better the second time around? Also, why isn't the older brother, who ADMITTED to stealing the pellet gun, in jail? In my day I carried a pocket knife all the time. But then again, people didn't get stabbed on a regular basis over stuppid crap either. With Columbine and assorted other school shootings, this is NOT funny. If you were trying to be humorous, I apologize for the level of my anger, but since my kid goes there, I don't find it funny at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Dude, at the risk of violating the new posting rules, are you an idiot? MY kid goes to that school as well (Juddling is my brother), and in no way do I want that asshole let back in. The GRANDMOTHER had to sign a form saying that she READ the handbook, and understood what it says. In BIG LETTERS on the first page is the zero tolerance rule, where it expressly forbids firearms of ANY KIND. Can the grandmother read, or does she always just sign things without looking first. And why is this grandmother watching 5 grandkids? if she f***ed up her own kids bad enough that THEY can't be parents, what makes the courts think she will do better the second time around? Also, why isn't the older brother, who ADMITTED to stealing the pellet gun, in jail? In my day I carried a pocket knife all the time. But then again, people didn't get stabbed on a regular basis over stuppid crap either. With Columbine and assorted other school shootings, this is NOT funny. If you were trying to be humorous, I apologize for the level of my anger, but since my kid goes there, I don't find it funny at all. I think your anger (and your brother's) is a bit misguided. The Grandmother is just doing what any parent or guardian would do, especially in the litigious society we live in now. The personal attacks on the Grandmother, and her entire family for that matter are, in my opinion, uncalled for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Welcome to the US where there are always checks and balances. In the US, adults cannot sign away rights of minors. For example I know of a pre-nuptial that was later updated to specifically state that if the woman wished to have a child, the father would not be responsible for child support if the marriage ended. It did and the court ruled and was upheld that the child support was for the child, not the mother, and she had no standing to negotiate away the child's rights. The father sends the checks every month. The courts have an obligation to review these matters when they are brought before the court. As a matter of law, and I4E who is a lawyer might comment, that a contract is not valid if any portion of the contract is against the law. If the school district's policy is ruled illegal, they will not have a choice but to re-admit the student. s***ty situation, it reminds me of the kid with the plastic butter knife and the girl who brought Midol from home. Both were expelled within these Zero Tolerance rules for weapons and drugs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Dude, at the risk of violating the new posting rules, are you an idiot? MY kid goes to that school as well (Juddling is my brother), and in no way do I want that asshole let back in. In my day I carried a pocket knife all the time. But then again, people didn't get stabbed on a regular basis over stuppid crap either. With Columbine and assorted other school shootings, this is NOT funny. If you were trying to be humorous, I apologize for the level of my anger, but since my kid goes there, I don't find it funny at all. Of course I was trying to be humorous. Ya think that maybe you're overreacting just a tad? Kids at my high school used to carry around knives disguised as Bic pens, and this was a pretty damn good high school (Gordon Tech). And I got a pellet gun at Service Merchandise when I was like 12 or 13 years old with the $40 or $50 that I had saved up. Yes, they sold it to me when I was that young. Why? IT'S A f***ING PELLET GUN. It shoots Pellets, for Christ's sake. I'll say that things have changed...out in the burbs. That's for damn sure. Stay in the city where people actually have some backbone, common sense, and a sense of humor. Consider that sharpened pencils and scissors are just as dangerous as a pellet gun. "But you can take an eye out!" Right, and that makes it different from sharpened pencils..... :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 I was shocked that anyone made a 9mm pellet gun. That is a monster. I did a little checking and may be picking one up. Beeman P3 Combo.177 410 fps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Just my $0.02... The kid admitted he brought the gun to school to do harm to another kid. I don't know about any of you.. but my opinion is that when a kid (4th grader.. what's that 9, 10 years old?) comes to school, or anywhere, with something, any type of weapon, to hurt someone else... that kid apparently does not play well with others and doesn't need to be given a second chance to "not get caught"... Carry on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 (edited) Just my $0.02... The kid admitted he brought the gun to school to do harm to another kid. I don't know about any of you.. but my opinion is that when a kid (4th grader.. what's that 9, 10 years old?) comes to school, or anywhere, with something, any type of weapon, to hurt someone else... that kid apparently does not play well with others and doesn't need to be given a second chance to "not get caught"... Carry on. So what would you do with him? Lock him up until he is 18? 21? 65? At what point should he be allowed back into society? At what point should he be allowed to play outside, join a baseball league, go to Chucky Cheese, go to school? Has the kid done anything wrong in the year since the incidence? Edited September 7, 2004 by Texsox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Just my $0.02... The kid admitted he brought the gun to school to do harm to another kid. I don't know about any of you.. but my opinion is that when a kid (4th grader.. what's that 9, 10 years old?) comes to school, or anywhere, with something, any type of weapon, to hurt someone else... that kid apparently does not play well with others and doesn't need to be given a second chance to "not get caught"... Carry on. I agree that the kid should have been expelled, but.... The school district, following it's clear policy, suspended the boy for two years. I couldn't agree less with that decision. Expel him & let him latch on someplace else. Let's just assume that he has learned his lesson. After all, we're talking about a little kid who doesn't know any better. And besides, he never actually used it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 So what would you do with him? Lock him up until he is 18? 21? 65? At what point should he be allowed back into society? At what point should he be allowed to play outside, join a baseball league, go to Chucky Cheese, go to school? Has the kid done anything wrong in the year since the incidence? No idea. But if the policy is no guns at school... then no guns at school. I mean c'mon.. we're not talking about a squirt gun here. And he had intent. Back into society... he was expelled from school not ordered to home confinement. And what does not doing anything wrong in the year since have to do with anything. A pedophile doesn't do wrong while he's in jail.. so let him babysit when he gets out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 I couldn't agree less with that decision. Expel him & let him latch on someplace else. Let's just assume that he has learned his lesson. After all, we're talking about a little kid who doesn't know any better. And besides, he never actually used it. He didn't actually use it...? Yikes... if I'm a parent that's not a comforting argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 No idea. But if the policy is no guns at school... then no guns at school. I mean c'mon.. we're not talking about a squirt gun here. And he had intent. Back into society... he was expelled from school not ordered to home confinement. And what does not doing anything wrong in the year since have to do with anything. A pedophile doesn't do wrong while he's in jail.. so let him babysit when he gets out? The stated punishment is 2 years out of school. Why not cut it in half if the kid has been well behaved and hasn't done anything else? By the info given, this was a one time thing to stop bullying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 He didn't actually use it...? Yikes... if I'm a parent that's not a comforting argument. Yeah, but if you're the parent of kids who like to go around and make fun of others to make themselves feel better..... Lessons need to be learned on both sides. But then again, pellets only sting. Fists? They can do a hell of a lot more damage. I recommend the use of fists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 The stated punishment is 2 years out of school. Why not cut it in half if the kid has been well behaved and hasn't done anything else? By the info given, this was a one time thing to stop bullying. Why not stick with the home schooling until the 2 years is up and then return him to public school if he's over his rage issues..? I'll admit.. I have no idea what being bullied does to a kid. I was popular and liked and never had issues like this back in my day. But I do know that I did then know that violence was not the answer to anything and all to well the difference between right and wrong. When I was 9 years old my father taught me to shoot a .22 rifle and we went hunting. Yet I knew that guns belonged in the woods or on the range and never ever touched one in the house. This was not something I was taught that I recall.. just common sense. Have things changed so much that it's acceptable for a "kid" to use a gun to defend himself...? Even just to threaten..? An adult would be locked up for assult with a deadly weapon if they went around flashing a gun... no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Yeah, but if you're the parent of kids who like to go around and make fun of others to make themselves feel better..... Lessons need to be learned on both sides. But then again, pellets only sting. Fists? They can do a hell of a lot more damage. I recommend the use of fists. I hope I wouldn't be.. and like to think I wont be. Teach your kids right and you don't have these problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 7, 2004 Share Posted September 7, 2004 Before this goes any further.. I just want to say that I have no idea what the answer is. I don't pretend to have one. I have no idea what I would do in this situation and I feel badly for the kid that he felt he had to resort to this action to stop being bullied. But the rules are the rules. If we don't teach them to follow the rules at 10.. what makes us think they will follow the rules at 20..? Sad situation all around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 OK. Steff, thanks for being a voice of reason here. You can tell you are a parent. FYI, the kid was expelled at the end of the school year last year, so he missed about a month at the end, and the first 2 weeks of this year, so he hasn't even been out for a year yet. The bottom line is like Steff said. he brought a GUN to school, to HARM OTHERS. He brought the gun because his older brother (who STOLE the gun) gave it to him. Would he have refused to take the gun if it was a regular 9mm, instead of a pellet gun? In the news story, he claims he told the teacher 3 times, and nothing happened. The FIRST time a teacher is told of ANY bullying account, they have to fill out a form and report it to the principal, which was done, and noted in the first court appearance. The kid reported the incident once. Not 3 times. After the first reporting, the kid never brought it up again, at least to the school. And if he brought it up at home, the grandmother sure didn't bring it up to the school, because they treat those things serious. Nobody put this kid in jail, they just decided to keep the other students safe from him, at least while on school property. That is their duty, not to coddle kids who ROYALLY f*** UP by bringing a gun to school. Sure, kids make mistakes, but this was a big one. Ever been shot with a pellet gun? I have, it hurt like hell! Thank god it hit me in my ass, where I have padding. It bled a little bit, and it hurt to sit for quite awhile. While my anger at the grandmother for being a f***up may be a bit misplaced, that is an arguement for another time. The real issue is that this kid doesn't belong where he can harm other students. Just because he didn't get a chance to use it shouldn't lessen the severity of his actions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I think your anger (and your brother's) is a bit misguided. The Grandmother is just doing what any parent or guardian would do, especially in the litigious society we live in now. The personal attacks on the Grandmother, and her entire family for that matter are, in my opinion, uncalled for. MrEye, I will concede that you have a point, most parents will try to protect their kids (or grandkids). However, I think character IS an issue here. What kind of kids is she raising if at 10 years old they are resorting to using guns to settle arguements? The older brother is already an admitted thief, and now the 10 year old COULD get an attempted assault charge for taking that gun with intent to harm. How is that NOT relevant here? Do you think that the environment that he is raised in should NOT be taken into consideration when trying to decide if he should be let back into school? How is he going to 'learn better' if he is surrounded by people who fail to give him the moral base to know right from wrong? All I know is that if that were my son that somehow happened to bring a gun to school, pellet or otherwise, I would be too damn embarrassed to want my name plastered all over the papers as a bad parent, because that's exactally what she looks like here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Ever been shot with a pellet gun? I have, it hurt like hell! Thank god it hit me in my ass, where I have padding. I've played paintball maybe half a dozen times, and I've also been hit in the calf with a pellet. Same difference. It stings temporarily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 I've played paintball maybe half a dozen times, and I've also been hit in the calf with a pellet. Same difference. It stings temporarily. Let me shoot you with the pellet gun my dad has at his house for my boys to use while visiting. That one will do a lot more than just 'sting temporarily'. You still don't seem to get the point, and keep trying to make smartass comments to deflect from the fact that a 10 year old kid, brought a weapon to a school with intention to harm other kids. Why do you not see that this is a BAD thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 8, 2004 Share Posted September 8, 2004 Why do you not see that this is a BAD thing? It is a bad thing. Shall we just lock the kid away until he's 18? When can he be allowed back into society? When shall he be allowed to play with other kids, go to a movies, walk the streets, go to the library, return to school? 3 months? 6 months? 2 years? 25 years? Do you want to punish the kid foreveer for what may be a single instance of a kid trying to defend himself from bullies after teachers did nothing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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