jackie hayes Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 The Twins are winning because they were patient with guys like Koskie, Radke, Milton, Hunter etc. Granted to let the "kids" play, you will probably have another year similar to this one, or even a bit worse. But a year like that could allow Garland and Crede to finally get it going. It could allow Willie to develop comfortably. It would give the Sox an opportunity to see if Uribe is the long term answer at SS. It would allow some of the other pitchers to develop, guys like Cotts, Munoz, Bajenaru, etc. They would probably find that not all of them are Major Leaguers, but they may allow guys to develop that may not have if you keep them in AAA or limit their roles. I don't totally disagree w/ your point, but I also don't think that's quite the right way to characterize the Twins. They tend to develop their players longer in the minor leagues. (I remember reading/hearing that Twins players take an above-average number of minor league at-bats. I don't have the stats myself, though.) Then they're brought up and expected to perform. Of the players you mention, in terms of stats, Koskie was pretty much what he is now from the word go. Radke and Milton had a first year burp -- a burp we would have loved in the 5th spot this year -- but then were more-or-less the pitchers we've seen since. Hunter is the only one that had some difficulties -- about a .690 ops in his first year, .730 in his second. Overall, there wasn't much patience needed with those players once they hit the ML. Now, I don't think there's a very clear message out of this. One could say the Sox are too quick to bring up young players, and that might be true. But just thinking about our call-ups (excluding the many 5th starters this year, which was sheer desperation), I'm not convinced that they were too green. One could just as well blame our player drafting and recruiting (in Latin America), or our player development. I'm not sure what's wrong, but I just don't see much evidence that developing guys at the ML level is a good strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 The lineup I spoke of at the beginning of this thread is tearing it up tonight. Add Big Frank, along with a FA pitcher and 3B, and I think it is still very solid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 The lineup I spoke of at the beginning of this thread is tearing it up tonight. Add Big Frank, along with a FA pitcher and 3B, and I think it is still very solid. I still wouldn't want that lineup out there on a regular basis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 I still wouldn't want that lineup out there on a regular basis. Well I wouldn't want YOU out there on a regular basis. What? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Well I wouldn't want YOU out there on a regular basis. What? Hey, no one asked your opinion Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWSGuy406 Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 so we trade paulie, so who are you going to put at 1b, big frank? and if you put big frank at first who is going to dh? lets get this straight, the sox will not sign a fa who is a client of boras. Why is Shingo here then...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Why is Shingo here then...? Weren't the sox the only team that guaranteed him at least the set-up role? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 I can't believe he almost didn't make the team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 I can't believe he almost didn't make the team. Ya, he almost started the year in triple a. Wasn't his era in like the 6's in spring training? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 12, 2004 Author Share Posted September 12, 2004 Ya, he almost started the year in triple a. Wasn't his era in like the 6's in spring training? Yes, because in Japan they don't swing at the first pitch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Yes, because in Japan they don't swing at the first pitch. That's where Ichiro! learned his patience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Rex, you mention to give some of the young pitchers a chance, when now or next yr and if it is next yr, who are you suggesting????? LDF, I was referring to next year, but the rest of this year is certainly a start. The pitchers I was referring to were a group of Bajenaru, Diaz, Munoz, Cotts (perhaps in a starter's role?), Adkins in a more primary role, etc...... There is not much chance that all of them will make the club next year. But the Sox need to decide which ones they think are more likely to contribute, then stick with that person. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 I don't totally disagree w/ your point, but I also don't think that's quite the right way to characterize the Twins. They tend to develop their players longer in the minor leagues. (I remember reading/hearing that Twins players take an above-average number of minor league at-bats. I don't have the stats myself, though.) Then they're brought up and expected to perform. Of the players you mention, in terms of stats, Koskie was pretty much what he is now from the word go. Radke and Milton had a first year burp -- a burp we would have loved in the 5th spot this year -- but then were more-or-less the pitchers we've seen since. Hunter is the only one that had some difficulties -- about a .690 ops in his first year, .730 in his second. Overall, there wasn't much patience needed with those players once they hit the ML. Now, I don't think there's a very clear message out of this. One could say the Sox are too quick to bring up young players, and that might be true. But just thinking about our call-ups (excluding the many 5th starters this year, which was sheer desperation), I'm not convinced that they were too green. One could just as well blame our player drafting and recruiting (in Latin America), or our player development. I'm not sure what's wrong, but I just don't see much evidence that developing guys at the ML level is a good strategy. Developing players at the major league level is not a good strategy. Though, you do have to give players some adjustment time once they reach the show. The main reason not to have that strategy is that you start the arbitration/free agency clock way too soon on these guys. Take Jon Garland for an example. He's 24 years old and already has 4 years or so of major league service time. Arbitration is already a factor with his salary and soon he'll be FA eligible. The Sox will have gone through these painful years, trying to groom this guy to be a top notch starter, and may lose him just as he gets there. Also, you have to take into consideration a players "prime" years. These usually occur between 27-32 years of age. Hell, because Garland was promoted so young, he may be in the prime of his career while pitching for the Dodgers, for example. If Garland were getting his first taste of the big leagues now, as a 24 year old September callup, he'd be with us till age 30, if the club chose to keep him. Another advantage of keeping guys in the minors is that they actually learn how to play the game properly before getting promoted to the majors. You take a career minor leaguer like Jamie Burke, age 33, and you can see this guy knows how to play baseball. Ross Gload is another example. He's paid his dues in the bushes and now is a valuable bench player for a major league team. Of course, Burke and Gload do not have the talent of some of the other bonus baby types, so they are peaking professionally right now. But, if you took your Andersons, Sweeneys and Fields and let them slowly work their way through the minor league system, theoretically, they'd be major league caliber baseball players the day the arbitration clock starts ticking. That is the way to get the most "bang for your buck", so to speak. The negative side of that strategy is that you get the reputation as a team the slowly promotes it's prospects, it makes these young guys who want a quick ticket to the bigs very hesitant to sign with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Developing players at the major league level is not a good strategy. Though, you do have to give players some adjustment time once they reach the show. The main reason not to have that strategy is that you start the arbitration/free agency clock way too soon on these guys. Take Jon Garland for an example. He's 24 years old and already has 4 years or so of major league service time. Arbitration is already a factor with his salary and soon he'll be FA eligible. The Sox will have gone through these painful years, trying to groom this guy to be a top notch starter, and may lose him just as he gets there. Also, you have to take into consideration a players "prime" years. These usually occur between 27-32 years of age. Hell, because Garland was promoted so young, he may be in the prime of his career while pitching for the Dodgers, for example. If Garland were getting his first taste of the big leagues now, as a 24 year old September callup, he'd be with us till age 30, if the club chose to keep him. Another advantage of keeping guys in the minors is that they actually learn how to play the game properly before getting promoted to the majors. You take a career minor leaguer like Jamie Burke, age 33, and you can see this guy knows how to play baseball. Ross Gload is another example. He's paid his dues in the bushes and now is a valuable bench player for a major league team. Of course, Burke and Gload do not have the talent of some of the other bonus baby types, so they are peaking professionally right now. But, if you took your Andersons, Sweeneys and Fields and let them slowly work their way through the minor league system, theoretically, they'd be major league caliber baseball players the day the arbitration clock starts ticking. That is the way to get the most "bang for your buck", so to speak. The negative side of that strategy is that you get the reputation as a team the slowly promotes it's prospects, it makes these young guys who want a quick ticket to the bigs very hesitant to sign with you. I agree completely. The 2 advantages you mention of keeping players in the minors are really two sides of the same coin. It is clear now that Garland was probably brought up too soon to contribute, and because of that he'll be fa/arbitration eligible at an unfortunate time, before we can really see the best pitcher he can become. Put differently, if a guy's ready when young, there's no reason to keep him in the minors just b/c of arbitration -- Zack Greinke, Miguel Cabrera, Mark Prior. But it's rare -- those are some awfully special players. Mostly, I just don't want to see the Sox get impatient with Anderson, Sweeney, etc. And Fields more than anyone, since he didn't play baseball full-time until recently. Some have suggested that he'll be ready in 2 years -- he may be, but it's nothing the Sox should rely on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 LDF, I was referring to next year, but the rest of this year is certainly a start. The pitchers I was referring to were a group of Bajenaru, Diaz, Munoz, Cotts (perhaps in a starter's role?), Adkins in a more primary role, etc...... There is not much chance that all of them will make the club next year. But the Sox need to decide which ones they think are more likely to contribute, then stick with that person. Rex, i agree with you, what gets me is the idea of having one of those pitcher being tried at the #5 slot and have garland at #4. its is almost as the same as it was this yr and look at how if unfolded. i am saying that i can't stand to see another yr of pit like it was this yr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 (edited) Why is Shingo here then...? Boars is not Shingo's agent. I am pretty sure of that too. Cheat has posted it before. EDIT: Shingo's agent is Joe Urbon. This is kind of a funny article too. Link Yakult Swallows free agent closer Shingo Takatsu will make around $700,000 in his first year in the San Diego Padres bullpen. Padres GM Kevin Towers and Takatsu's agent, Joe Urbon Wow, were they wrong. Edited September 12, 2004 by witesoxfan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 12, 2004 Share Posted September 12, 2004 Boars is not Shingo's agent. I am pretty sure of that too. Cheat has posted it before. EDIT: Shingo's agent is Joe Urbon. This is kind of a funny article too. Link Wow, were they wrong. i thought that was posted before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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