CanOfCorn Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 There's been a lot of talk lately about signing free agents in the off season. And while that should fill some holes and maybe the occasional marquee signing or two...I think that what we REALLY need to do is work on our minor league system. Whether it be the scouts or the coaching or whatever it may be, too many of our "can't miss" prospects are missing. While signing a Randy Johnson or a Pedro would be great...we need to build up our system. I'm sick of seeing all of these Twins players come up and kick ass (Morneau, Ford, Tiffee). Plus, the ones that aren't working out, they cast off (Kielty). Every org makes mistakes (David Ortiz, in the Twins case), but we need to figure out how to bring up more home grown talent. That way we don't have to always rely on "Who we can get? Who can we afford? Will that player come here?" I think this has been brought up other times, but I wanted to start a thread about it and see what you guys think could be the weak link in our system. Personally, I think our system looks for big swingers on offense and relies too much on overpowering fastballs in pitching. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 I think it just boils down to poor talent evaluation. People say "none of our top prospects ever turn out." Well, that happens to everyone. The problem is we don't have many "top prospects." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted September 13, 2004 Author Share Posted September 13, 2004 Not anymore, we don't. Granted I don't blame KW for trading the future to win now, but even the ones he traded away (not including this year's trades) haven't even worked out for other teams. The only one I can think of that is doing ok is Kip Wells. And maybe Frankie Francisco. I can't think of any others. But, they some were top line prospects at the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 No doubt you're correct. Sox need to look at what some other systems are doing and model it. Organizations like Minnesota, Oakland, Atlanta come to mind. One issue I really have a problem with is this management team has an undying loyalty to their minor league staff. Loyalty is a great thing but our results have been suffering. Twins are consistently getting guys who are major league ready in 4-5 years, some a lot sooner. I've got to believe it's a combination of drafting first, and then instruction. Sox have had the same coordinator of minor league instruction for forever, for cripes sake the guy is 72 years old and we still have players coming up who can't bunt. Williams defends his minor league people fiercely. And I do mean fiercely. If you ever see him get defensive at SoxFest, just challenge him on the farm system issues I'm talking about here and he'll really come out firing. That's admirable on one hand, perhaps shortsighted on the other. I really feel instruction is an issue because the Sox never seem to be able to harness talent ... particularly pitching talent. And here's the issue with that - the Sox always go pitching heavy in the draft, stating their philosophy is "if you have alot of good pitching, you're in a good position to win, and/or trade for other pieces you need." Decent enough philosophy, but if the pitching talent doesn't pan out, you get next to nothing in trades. Either that, or you give up on a guy before you clearly recognize his potential. This Josh Rupe they traded to Texas last year is a good example. He's starting to really show his stuff. Now, that doesn't mean you can't trade prospects, you should from time to time but there should NOT be a constant need to fill holes. We are now essentially going into the offseason and we have big holes at the position player level. We still need a SS to come in and take over, and we're talking about another fill in with Vizquel. Harris has not met their expectations. Borchard has been a bust, to be blunt. The Sox constantly have to pick up guys who haven't gotten a chance elsewhere to fill the bench spots, i.e. Gload, Perez, Burke. Not saying that's all bad, but it's certainly an indictment of the system. Sooner or later, you stop saying "it's bad luck we've not developed a SS since Gerald Ford was President, it's bad luck we have all these pitchers come up with arm injuries." You've got to look at what you do, and what other teams do. Hire somebody away from one of these other organizations if you can't find out yourself. One thing the Sox do well is identify other team's "projects" and try to acquire them. This Villacus (sp?) kid they picked up on waivers from KC. Same with Alex Escobar, the OF. In my opinion, they need to do two things: 1. If you're going to continue the philosophy of going very heavy on pitching, lean more strongly to guys who pound the strike zone vs. these wild, live armed kids who you have to harness their talent. Can you say Wyatt Allen, Rob Purvis? Take kids who've demonstrated the ability to throw strikes. Is it any wonder why B-Mac has emerged as such a good prospect? He was a strike throwing machine even in junior college. 2. Focus on position players with an aptitude for plate discipline. Sox keep taking guys like Seth Morris and Tom Collaro and Charlie Lisk because they were so impressed with their raw power. Now it's 2-3 years later, and these kids can barely hit their weight. Lots of strikeouts, low average. With the way ballparks are configured these days, you don't need a big huge guy to hit home runs. Kids are stronger anyway. If you get a lineup of guys who can hit, say, 15 HR's with maybe 1-2 bigger boppers, you've got a winning formula. That's for starters. There are lots of other ideas I've got too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 excellent post, Jim H. Truly outstanding. As long as we're going to continue to do things on the cheap, we'd better have an edge some other way. Oakland has its system. Minnesota has a different system. We have no plan, no direction. Yes, many teams have prospects that don't work out. But four years ago Baseball America ranked our prospects -- as a group -- as the best in baseball. Precious few of them panned out. Our development people have some questions to answer over that. If we're not going to spend big money on free agents, we'd better be developing more guys who can contribute and will stay around for 10 years. I look at the Twins. It's not the Torii Hunters and Jacque Jones that bother me. It is guys like Lew Ford and Santana and Koskie. Somebody did their job identifying and developing those guys. Other than Buehrle, I can't think of any late draft pick we have who have delivered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted September 13, 2004 Author Share Posted September 13, 2004 If we're not going to spend big money on free agents, we'd better be developing more guys who can contribute and will stay around for 10 years. I look at the Twins. It's not the Torii Hunters and Jacque Jones that bother me. It is guys like Lew Ford and Santana and Koskie. Somebody did their job identifying and developing those guys. Other than Buehrle, I can't think of any late draft pick we have who have delivered. This is exactly what I was thinking of. Every year, we Sox fans complain that JR isn't spending money, but he wouldn't have to spend as much if we could develop from within. What really got me going is this Tiffee kid on the Twins. Not only did he develop within the Twins system, but he is probably going to replace another player developed from within, Koskie. When was the last time THAT happened on the Sox? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 What really got me going is this Tiffee kid on the Twins. Not only did he develop within the Twins system, but he is probably going to replace another player developed from within, Koskie. When was the last time THAT happened on the Sox? Wow Dybber, I'm glad I'm not the only one who is totally pissed off about that. It really got me going too. It's simply no accident they keep coming up with guys like that. Look at Lew Ford, look at his walks vs. strikeouts. They're about the same I'd bet. He is not the prototypical left fielder but all he does is hit and hit and hit. He's one of the toughest outs they have up there. And they pull this Tiffee kid from nowhere, a 24th round draft choice and lo and behold, here he is, ready to plug the gap if/when Koskie asks for too much $$. Their stud catcher, Mauer, went down and they plug in Henry Freakin' Blanco and you've got all these scouts saying this guy calls the best game in the American League. Why wouldn't the White Sox know this guy calls such a great game, and go after a guy like that? Look at it. Two regulars there ... Ford and Blanco. Neither jump out as All Stars. Ford is hitting over .300 I think and he can run and he gets on base a ton. Blanco isn't a whiz with the bat but he is absolutely outstanding at calling a game - he knows what pitches to call to keep the hitters off balance. How valuable is that, that is just huge. And watch out for this Punto kid at 2B, who hurt his shoulder in Chicago. If that pain in the ass Luis Rivas pissed you off, this kid is cut from the same cloth. Meanwhile ... and I really don't mean to keep harping on this ... we have a 2nd baseman who can't bunt and is afraid to steal bases. And we think we'll win, with that? Please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 JD Drew Starting Pitcher (Pavano, Perez, Clement, etc) Quality RH Reliever Rest via trade, imo. Right now the only playres in the minors I see ready to help out at the major league level are relievers and Borchard (who I think will be used off the bench next year). JD Drew flat out replaces Maggs and their is some risk involved, but if he stays healthy, he's SUPERIOR to Maggs in all areas, imo. Better OBP, Better OPS, just as good of speed. Average wise Maggs could be a bit better and defensively they are similar. Oh ya, I don't think their is a chance in hell Drew gets the 14 mill a year Maggs wanted. However, 8-10 Mill and I'm all over the idea of Drew. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CanOfCorn Posted September 13, 2004 Author Share Posted September 13, 2004 Wow Dybber, I'm glad I'm not the only one who is totally pissed off about that. It really got me going too. It's simply no accident they keep coming up with guys like that. Look at Lew Ford, look at his walks vs. strikeouts. They're about the same I'd bet. He is not the prototypical left fielder but all he does is hit and hit and hit. He's one of the toughest outs they have up there. And they pull this Tiffee kid from nowhere, a 24th round draft choice and lo and behold, here he is, ready to plug the gap if/when Koskie asks for too much $$. Their stud catcher, Mauer, went down and they plug in Henry Freakin' Blanco and you've got all these scouts saying this guy calls the best game in the American League. Why wouldn't the White Sox know this guy calls such a great game, and go after a guy like that? Look at it. Two regulars there ... Ford and Blanco. Neither jump out as All Stars. Ford is hitting over .300 I think and he can run and he gets on base a ton. Blanco isn't a whiz with the bat but he is absolutely outstanding at calling a game - he knows what pitches to call to keep the hitters off balance. How valuable is that, that is just huge. And watch out for this Punto kid at 2B, who hurt his shoulder in Chicago. If that pain in the ass Luis Rivas pissed you off, this kid is cut from the same cloth. Meanwhile ... and I really don't mean to keep harping on this ... we have a 2nd baseman who can't bunt and is afraid to steal bases. And we think we'll win, with that? Please. Well, I guess what they say about great minds and all... I don't even mean to be totally down on the system at all. Crede and Borchard could come through. B Mac, Anderson, Sweeney, Josh Fields (either one), Munoz, etc. might not be busts, it just seems that our rooks take a LOT longer to mature than the Twins rooks. What makes it even worse is that their AAA and AA teams finished a combined 2 games over .500. Oooo, it makes me soooo mad!!! :banghead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted September 13, 2004 Share Posted September 13, 2004 JD Drew is Scott Boras. he ain't comin within 500 miles of The cell. wave that off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 wow, what a great post and i agree with you on most if not all. we should really look at the real problem, the lack of player development. so where does or should i say who should take the blame????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 While Drew is Boras agent, I think he's the type of player thats worth taking the shot on and at least making an offer. .430 OBP, 30 + HR's, .300 Average, 100 + RBI, 1000 + OPS. Thats a serious improvement in the middle of the lineup, plus he provides a left handed bat. On top of that, Maggs was making 14 mill this year and you could probably pay him 4-6 mill less to put up better numbers (potentially). Oh ya, his numbers should go up playing at US Cell half the time, although he had very good home numbers playing in a pitchers park (Atlanta). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 While Drew is Boras agent, I think he's the type of player thats worth taking the shot on and at least making an offer. .430 OBP, 30 + HR's, .300 Average, 100 + RBI, 1000 + OPS. Thats a serious improvement in the middle of the lineup, plus he provides a left handed bat. On top of that, Maggs was making 14 mill this year and you could probably pay him 4-6 mill less to put up better numbers (potentially). Oh ya, his numbers should go up playing at US Cell half the time, although he had very good home numbers playing in a pitchers park (Atlanta). why not go after carlos betran??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I'd have no problem with Beltran, but its gonna be about 6-8 mill a year more and a longer contract. I'm a huge fan of Beltran and if JR is willing to have an 80 Mill payroll, then I'd consider it an option. However, minus the health and not playing CF (hell, I'm more then happy with Rowand in CF), then Drew is a better OBP/offensive player in certain stastics. Beltran the better baserunner and plays defensive outfield. I don't know if 6-8 mill a year is worth it, unless the Sox decide he's the type of guy to go outside the budget for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I'd have no problem with Beltran, but its gonna be about 6-8 mill a year more and a longer contract. I'm a huge fan of Beltran and if JR is willing to have an 80 Mill payroll, then I'd consider it an option. However, minus the health and not playing CF (hell, I'm more then happy with Rowand in CF), then Drew is a better OBP/offensive player in certain stastics. Beltran the better baserunner and plays defensive outfield. I don't know if 6-8 mill a year is worth it, unless the Sox decide he's the type of guy to go outside the budget for. has drew ever played a entire season without getting hurt and if so how many?? beside this yr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 has drew ever played a entire season without getting hurt and if so how many?? beside this yr. He's had his problems, thats for sure, but give him a few days off and he should be alright, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 He's had his problems, thats for sure, but give him a few days off and he should be alright, imo. seriously, how many injuries has he had what does that amount too in game? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I think he averages about 125-135 games in his full seasons, but I don't have the exact numbers. As far as his injuries, I think they were mainly knee injuries. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 I think he averages about 125-135 games in his full seasons, but I don't have the exact numbers. As far as his injuries, I think they were mainly knee injuries. right knee injuries. a know and recurring problem with him, as far as i remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 right knee injuries. a know and recurring problem with him, as far as i remember. If that's the case, we might as well resign Maggs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LDF Posted September 14, 2004 Share Posted September 14, 2004 If that's the case, we might as well resign Maggs... maybe not resign, but offer him arb, again why can't mags just bat and be a dh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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