concern about KW

[Rowand44]

E Pacheco s. alomar Sox lost

You lost all credibility there, I don't even want to go over the other ones because this is a fricken joke if you say this was a lost trade.

[Old Socks]

I can think of two.  Please tell me which others besides the Todd Ritchie and Billy Koch trades?

The 2003 trade for Everett, the 2003 trade for Robbie for starters. The Ritchie trade was soooooooooooooooooo bad that it will make up for every good trade he will ever make. Berry/Barry was just an embarassment, but so what? The 2004 trade for Robbie. The jury is still out on the Jeremy Reed give-away. The Schoenweis trade from the Angels. Giving away $8-10MM for Clayton just to do the Rangers a favor. Let me guess, you are a teen-ager.

[santo=dorf]

You lost all credibility there, I don't even want to go over the other ones because this is a fricken joke if you say this was a lost trade.

Don't worry, you didn't miss much. He thinks signing players and not winning anything is a bad deal because it was just a waste of money. Hell last year was a waste of 60 million, and this year is a waste of 65 million dollars. Kenny Williams is such a bad GM

[Palehosefan]

Did he just say PTBNL for Herbert Perry was a loss????? Or did I misread.

[Yossarian]

KW is handicapped somewhat by his boss, but if you really care to be ojective he is a below par GM. He is aggressive and not afraid to pull the trigger on a big deal but he has a tendency to hone in on a guy he wants and overpay for him. Don't forget his clubhouse meddling during the Manuel years. No, I'm not defending Manuel, it was time for him to go, but KW undercut him time and time again. Supposedly Ozzie and KW are more in sync. We'll have to see. In the meantime KW really has his work cut out for him this off season. This team isn't close to contending for anything and may be overtaken by Cleveland and Detroit next year if significant changes aren't made.

[Rowand44]

The 2003 trade for Everett, the 2003 trade for Robbie for starters.  The Ritchie trade was soooooooooooooooooo bad that  it will make up for every good trade he will ever make.  Berry/Barry was just an embarassment, but so what?  The 2004 trade for Robbie.  The jury is still out on the Jeremy Reed give-away.  The Schoenweis trade from the Angels.  Giving away $8-10MM for Clayton just to do the Rangers a favor.  Let me guess, you are a teen-ager.

Yes I'm a teenager, so what? Both trades last year weren't losses at all, Everett was very good here and so far all texas has to show for it is relief pitcher that throws chairs at people, and yes I know Rupe has a chance to be solid but he still hasn't done anything yet. We gave up absolutely nothing for robbie last year and this year so how can either of those be bad? The berry/barry wasn't good but once again we gave up Baldwin, we didn't lose anything. The garcia trade was very good. The shoney trade definitely wasn't bad.

[qwerty]

Player to be name later perry Sox lost the trade

 

Willie harris Chris Singleton Sox lost trade

 

Signing Kenny lofton n/a At the time sox lost for now,

 

Franklin Francisco and Byeong An howry Sox won

 

E Pacheco s. alomar Sox lost

 

J Adkins R durham Sox lost the trade.

 

Colon  i forgot I will still say the sox won this trade even tho the reliever wounded up with 30 something saves for the expos.

 

 

R alomar Ring, almonte, savlio Sox won the trade imho.

 

 

 

 

This was semi complete list of transactions until the beginning of 2004. Of the major trades, the sox lost in those trades, in major signing, the sox won the majority of those. Still the major trade is were they hurt the sox the most. The likes of clayton, Ritchie, durham, Baldwin, brooks Fordyce, foulke, Everett were and are the major trades in which sox and kw lost. Colon, alomar, uribe, and lofton are the major trades in which the sox won. I won’t go into the minor trades and signing.

Sox won the perry for ptbl trade easily. Which is an understatement.

 

Chris Singelton is not even playin in the majpr leauges anymore.

 

Sox did not lose anything by trading losfton i do not know what you are thinking.

 

Franklin Francisco and Byeong for Howry would have been a great trade if we knew the numbers he would put up, but we didn't.

 

E Pacheco S.alomar is neither a win or loss. I mean we got sandy back the following off-season.

 

Adkins has a good chance of becoming a good seventh inning pitcher or set-up man. Durham on the other hand is a over payed mediocore lead-off hitter that cannot play defense worth a lick.

 

Who cares that we gave up osuna a biddle for colon. At the time we needed a big time starter and he got us one. Yes biddle did have 34 saves but he also blew 7 with an era of 4.65.

 

Any trade for a washed up roberto alomar is a loss and how can trading brook fordyce ever be a loss?

[YASNY]

To start with, wasn't the Fordyce trade a Schuler deal? I though KW took over after the 2000 season, and that trade was definitely during the 2000 season.

 

Regardless of how some of these trades actually turned out, you have to look at the thought process at the time the trade was made. What the intent was, and the past histories of the players involved. And what could be realistic expectations of the players involved.

 

For example, the Colon trade. The Sox got a guy who had been a proven ace and 20 game winner for Osuna (who was a decent set up guy), Biddle (young long reliever-spot starter) and that lefty hitter who's name escapes me now, but never amounted to anything. He got an ace without cracking into his starting lineup, rotation or any top prospects. He HAD to make that trade, it was so one sided. There is no way he could have forseen Colon pitching in such a disappointing fashion for half a season, but his value was established by the FA contract he signed with the Angels.

 

Then the Foulke, Koch trade. Keith Foulke was gonna be gone. He attempted to get a proven closer that would be around for a few years. Sound thinking at the time. What happened to koch's fastball after he got here is anybody's guess, but I can't critisize the thinking process of getting a contractually bound proven closer for one we were going to lose.

 

Even the David Wells trade was sound thinking. We needed an ace after the rotation self destructed at the end of 2000 season.

 

Look at the Clayton deal. How many people were screaming that we couldn't get by with a SS that made 36 errors. He got a proven defensive SS for a minor league pitcher that never panned out.

 

However, the Ritchie trade there is no defense for. That was a bad deal from day 1.

 

The Berry/Barry incident? BFD. He learned a lesson and it did not burn the White Sox with the net results.

 

The Everett and RAlomar deals didn't help much, but didn't hurt all that much either. They were worth a shot last year. This year, Everett was an attempt to replace part ot the lost Thomas production. Alomar? I'm still trying to figure that one out.

 

Singleton for Harris. How can anyone call that a bad trade? People were begging the Sox to get rid of Singleton.

 

SAlomar for Pacheco? ... We allowed the Rox to rent Sandy for 2 or 3 months. How can that be a bad trade?

 

All in all, I can't really find fault with too much that KW has done. Some were questionable. Some just didn't pan out. The Ritchie trade was just purely moronic.

[santo=dorf]

To start with, wasn't the Fordyce trade a Schuler deal?  I though KW took over after the 2000 season, and that trade was definitely during the 2000 season.

I believe Fordyce was traded for Charles Johnson during the 2000 season. I also stumbled across an article in which Schueler takes credit for the Ritchie trade.

 

http://www.addictsports.com/baseball/archi...hp/t-13330.html

 

Williams said he appreciated Schueler's assistance, particularly when Williams was farm director.

 

"Absolutely, Schu helped me,'' Williams said. "We worked closely together then while showing me a great amount of what goes into scouting, and then again in the offseason as general manager. He was right in the middle of preparation for the '02 season.''

 

Schueler outlined his concerns to Reinsdorf after deciding to move up his departure date before the end of October. He stressed the importance of background checks on players under consideration to be acquired who either have character flaws or have seen better days.

 

He excluded pitcher Todd Ritchie, who was acquired by Williams last winter from the Pirates in the controversial deal that sent Kip Wells, Josh Fogg and Sean Lowe to Pittsburgh."I was behind that trade,'' Schueler said, "although I didn't feel it was necessary for us to give them the kid [Fogg]. We felt we could straighten out Todd's mechanics, but it didn't happen. I still think he can be a good pitcher.''

[Guest JimH]

To start with, wasn't the Fordyce trade a Schuler deal?  I though KW took over after the 2000 season, and that trade was definitely during the 2000 season.

 

Regardless of how some of these trades actually turned out, you have to look at the thought process at the time the trade was made.  What the intent was, and the past histories of the players involved.  And what could be realistic expectations of the players involved.

 

For example, the Colon trade.  The Sox got a guy who had been a proven ace and 20 game winner for Osuna (who was a decent set up guy), Biddle (young long reliever-spot starter) and that lefty hitter who's name escapes me now, but never amounted to anything.  He got an ace without cracking into his starting lineup, rotation or any top prospects. He HAD to make that trade, it was so one sided.  There is no way he could have forseen Colon pitching in such a disappointing fashion for half a season, but his value was established by the FA contract he signed with the Angels.

 

Then the Foulke, Koch trade.  Keith Foulke was gonna be gone.  He attempted to get a proven closer that would be around for a few years.  Sound thinking at the time.  What happened to koch's fastball after he got here is anybody's guess, but I can't critisize the thinking process of getting a contractually bound proven closer for one we were going to lose. 

 

Even the David Wells trade was sound thinking.  We needed an ace after the rotation self destructed at the end of 2000 season.

 

Look at the Clayton deal.  How many people were screaming that we couldn't get by with a SS that made 36 errors.  He got a proven defensive SS for a minor league pitcher that never panned out. 

 

However, the Ritchie trade there is no defense for.  That was a bad deal from day 1. 

 

The Berry/Barry incident?  BFD.  He learned a lesson and it did not burn the White Sox with the net results. 

 

The Everett and RAlomar deals didn't help much, but didn't hurt all that much either.  They were worth a shot last year.  This year, Everett was an attempt to replace part ot the lost Thomas production. Alomar?  I'm still trying to figure that one out. 

 

Singleton for Harris.  How can anyone call that a bad trade?  People were begging the Sox to get rid of Singleton.

 

SAlomar for Pacheco? ... We allowed the Rox to rent Sandy for 2 or 3 months.  How can that be a bad trade?

 

All in all, I can't really find fault with too much that KW has done.  Some were questionable.  Some just didn't pan out.  The Ritchie trade was just purely moronic.

Yours is about the most fair and balanced assessment I've seen of this topic.

 

You really put it into what I feel is a proper perspective.

[Guest JimH]

The 2003 trade for Everett, the 2003 trade for Robbie for starters.  The Ritchie trade was soooooooooooooooooo bad that  it will make up for every good trade he will ever make.  Berry/Barry was just an embarassment, but so what?  The 2004 trade for Robbie.  The jury is still out on the Jeremy Reed give-away.  The Schoenweis trade from the Angels.  Giving away $8-10MM for Clayton just to do the Rangers a favor.  Let me guess, you are a teen-ager.

Whatever you say, Captain Prospect. :rolly

 

From: not a teenager for a long, long time

[The Beast]

There is no concern with me on KW.

 

From my understanding, he did a great job with all he has done for this team.

 

Yes, I think the Alomar and Everett trades for the second time were pretty stupid, but we aren't giving up jack squat for Alomar, and for Mawejski and Rauch needed a change of scenery.

 

It always has been, and always will be Jerry Reinsdorf that is a joke in this town.

[Steff]

There is no concern with me on KW.

 

From my understanding, he did a great job with all he has done for this team.

 

Yes, I think the Alomar and Everett trades for the second time were pretty stupid, but we aren't giving up jack squat for Alomar, and for Mawejski and Rauch needed a change of scenery.

 

It always has been, and always will be Jerry Reinsdorf that is a joke in this town.

Ehem.. Bill Wertz.

[EvilJester99]

Has anyone ever seen Reinsdorf and Wirtz in the same room at the same time?? Hmmmm

[Yossarian]

Well KW has definitely won the PR battle. I will say that he improved from his first couple of years. Back then he was singed regularly on all three major White Sox message boards. He won the fans back after the 2002 season. Acquiring Colon was probably the one event that tipped the balance most. I still think that if you look closely, he has been a subpar GM. Another thing. Wasn't evaluating young talent and running the farm system supposed to be his area of expertise prior to his becoming GM? If the proof is in the pudding then KW failed big time at that job. No, I don't particularly care for KW, although I grant you he's not as awful as he was at the beginning. Regarding the Ritchie deal. It was on KW's watch and I think it was rather noble of Ron Schueler to try to deflect criticism toward him and away from a young inexperienced GM. Some forget that he also said he never would have added Fogg in the trade. The Sox have had some shrewd GM's in my lifetime. At various times Sox GM's have pulled the Sox up off the deck with great trades or kept them in contention with other deals. Billy Pierce, Nellie Fox, Minnie Minoso, Pete Ward, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Dick Allen are among those acquired in blockbuster deals. As you can see, it's been a long time since I've been a teenager too.

[3E8]

Does anybody know KW's yearly salary?

[Steff]

Does anybody know KW's yearly salary?

Too much.

[POPPY_HIDALGO]

I think he gets a bottle of teeth whitener for every bad move he makes.

[mmmmmbeeer]

Well KW has definitely won the PR battle. I will say that he improved from his first couple of years. Back then he was singed regularly on all three major White Sox message boards. He won the fans back after the 2002 season. Acquiring Colon was probably the one event that tipped the balance most. I still think that if you look closely, he has been a subpar GM. Another thing. Wasn't evaluating young talent and running the farm system supposed to be his area of expertise prior to his becoming GM? If the proof is in the pudding then KW failed big time at that job. No, I don't particularly care for KW, although I grant you he's not as awful as he was at the beginning. Regarding the Ritchie deal. It was on KW's watch and I think it was rather noble of Ron Schueler to try to deflect criticism toward him and away from a young inexperienced GM. Some forget that he also said he never would have added Fogg in the trade. The Sox have had some shrewd GM's in my lifetime. At  various times Sox GM's have pulled the Sox up off the deck with great trades or kept them in contention with other deals. Billy Pierce, Nellie Fox, Minnie Minoso, Pete Ward, Hoyt Wilhelm, and Dick Allen are among those acquired in blockbuster deals.  As you can see, it's been a long time since I've been a teenager too.

That's the thing...don't the majority of our strengths in the minor league system reside at the lower levels? Wouldn't those players at the lower levels be more closely associated to the KW era than the Scheuler era and, conversely, the lack of talent at the higher levels be more closely associated with the Scheuler era than the KW era? I personally like what KW has done. Sure he's trading away "prospects", but they aren't his prospects. He wasn't the one incessantly overhyping our farm system. Perhaps he's trying his best to unload all the crap that was handed over to him, I mean, that's what strong talent evaluators do, is it not?

 

Incidentally, my favorite move this season that REALLY shows me that KW knows talent, is picking up Timo Perez. This little scraggly, poor hitting, part-time playing, hot dog defender has one of the best arms around and IS THE BEST CLUTCH HITTER IN BASEBALL. The guy hits under .200...unless there are men in scoring position, then he hits a measley .400+. Now THAT'S a guy who is a sound bench player and a solid contributor, and certainly one helluva pickup.

[jackie hayes]

That's the thing...don't the majority of our strengths in the minor league system reside at the lower levels?  Wouldn't those players at the lower levels be more closely associated to the KW era than the Scheuler era and, conversely, the lack of talent at the higher levels be more closely associated with the Scheuler era than the KW era?  I personally like what KW has done.  Sure he's trading away "prospects", but they aren't his prospects.  He wasn't the one incessantly overhyping our farm system.  Perhaps he's trying his best to unload all the crap that was handed over to him, I mean, that's what strong talent evaluators do, is it not?

No, Reed, Ring, and Rupe were KW selections. KW's had the last 4 drafts. Meanwhile he refuses to part with Borchard, a Schueler pick.

 

EDIT: I'm just talking about who's in charge. I know Kenny played a part in picks before he was GM.

[CanOfCorn]

And there was talk of trading B-mac, Anderson and Sweeney...all KW selections, too. He's getting it from all sides...JR wants to win before he dies, but on his own terms. Can't have it both ways, but he is making KW do that, which is handcuffing him.

 

Develop our system, but if we're close, do whatever you can to win. talk about a rock and a hard place.

[TLAK]

However, the Ritchie trade there is no defense for.  That was a bad deal from day 1. 

Through his first 8 starts he had run support problems, going 4-4 with a 3.18 ERA. Then he got hurt and eventually had rotor cuff surgery. He was just called up by the D-Rays yesterday.

 

I still think he could have been pretty good if he didn't get hurt.

[jackie hayes]

Through his first 8 starts he had run support problems, going 4-4 with a 3.18 ERA.  Then he got hurt and eventually had rotor cuff surgery.  He was just called up by the D-Rays yesterday.

 

I still think he could have been pretty good if he didn't get hurt.

I still think that YASNY's right. He traded 3 decent, young, cheap pitchers for a guy who had one good year in his whole career -- not the year before, or the year before that, but two years removed. That was a horrible lapse in judgement.

[qwerty]

I still think that YASNY's right.  He traded 3 decent, young, cheap pitchers for a guy who had one good year in his whole career -- not the year before, or the year before that, but two years removed.  That was a horrible lapse in judgement.

Thought it was a horrible trade the second it happened. No reason to give up more then a minor league bench player for ritchie. Just think if we had fogg and wells right now we would have a damn good rotation

[santo=dorf]

Thought it was a horrible trade the second it happened. No reason to give up more then a minor league bench player for ritchie.  Just think if we had fogg and wells right now we would have a damn good rotation

"I was behind that trade,'' "although I didn't feel it was necessary for us to give them the kid [Fogg]. We felt we could straighten out Todd's mechanics, but it didn't happen. I still think he can be a good pitcher.''

 

Guess who said that.

 

Fogg's numbers haven't been that good, and Wells haven't been too special. Just imagine what their numbers would be like if they were in the AL and in one of the best hitter's park in the league. :puke