Mr. Showtime Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Unreal. War protests stopping traffic like you wouldn't believe. Cars backed up out the ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Just saw that on the news. Right on Chicago! My home town comes through! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OfficerKarkovice Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Just saw that on the news. Right on Chicago! My home town comes through! What do you expect that protests are going to accomplish? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 It will accomplish whatever the framers of the constitution intended when they guarenteed the right to assemble. It certainly is good to see how many other people out there feel as I do and went out and expressed it. Kind of like crowds at a baseball game. They can play before a 0 crowd but it lends a great deal of support when there is a big crowd. And seeing footage of the crowd gives me hope when that many people on short notice inconvenienced themselves to express how deeply they feel about something important. Thinking still exists and we haven't been stampeded yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 these stupid assholes should be arrested and put in jail for wasting the tax payers dollars and wasting the cops and firefighters time who are already stretched to the limits with the f***ing code red terrorist status...... damn them anyhow... they should be arrested for sheer stupidity...............im sure chicagos finest appreciated being stuck on more overtime than they are already stuck on babysitting these yuppie assholes............ :fyou the protesters.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OfficerKarkovice Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 It will accomplish whatever the framers of the constitution intended when they guarenteed the right to assemble. It certainly is good to see how many other people out there feel as I do and went out and expressed it. Kind of like crowds at a baseball game. They can play before a 0 crowd but it lends a great deal of support when there is a big crowd. And seeing footage of the crowd gives me hope when that many people on short notice inconvenienced themselves to express how deeply they feel about something important. Thinking still exists and we haven't been stampeded yet. Yeah nothing tells our troops, our brothers, sisters, families, that we are there for them and support them like protesting out on the streets, virtually telling them that they are doing wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 OK, before the war started, the protesting was ok. But now there is a war, our young boys are dying (12 dead in the chopper crash) so lets just stick all that behind us and unite behind our troops in what we are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 It will accomplish whatever the framers of the constitution intended when they guarenteed the right to assemble. It certainly is good to see how many other people out there feel as I do and went out and expressed it. Kind of like crowds at a baseball game. They can play before a 0 crowd but it lends a great deal of support when there is a big crowd. And seeing footage of the crowd gives me hope when that many people on short notice inconvenienced themselves to express how deeply they feel about something important. Thinking still exists and we haven't been stampeded yet. Yeah nothing tells our troops, our brothers, sisters, families, that we are there for them and support them like protesting out on the streets, virtually telling them that they are doing wrong. yeah and in the mean time while the firefighters and cops are focused on the protesters and keeping things peaceful, in comes mr. bad guy with a bomb and blows up the sears tower... smart move protesters....really smooth planning there........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 That was real sweet... I wish I had gone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Yeah nothing tells our troops, our brothers, sisters, families, that we are there for them and support them like protesting out on the streets, virtually telling them that they are doing wrong. You, my stay at home friend with the bold talk, do nothing for no one. Go enlist if you support this thing so. And don't give me this bulls*** about being disloyal to our troops. I will allow myself this righteous anger: :fyou asshole. My son is out there. And I God Bless my son. And I God bless all who serve. And I God bless everyone who was out expressing their patriotic opinion that the decisions made by the administration are wrong. The support for the troops is real and thorough. Whenever an expression of our opposition to the decisions of the government is linked by assholes like you to being disloyal to the troops, then you are doing nothing more than advancing the same tactics that Nazis, communists, fascists, McCarthyites and others have used to silence dissent - accusations of disloyalty. The freedom to assemble is a constitutional right for a reason, even if there is a cost. You want all the trains to run on time? Mussolini could give you that. The American system is sometimes messy but it is what it is all about. Saddam does not allow demonstrations opposed to his views - you attack demonstrations with views different than yours. Change your name to OfficerSaddam and it would be accurate with who your soul mate is. And I await your announcement of your impending service in support of our troops, or just what exactly you will do to support the troops. With my "Invade Iraq? No!" bumber sticker on my car,. I am welcome at my local VFW and American Legion because in this small town they can tell the difference between supporting the people who serve with not supporting the government's policy. What do you do to support the troops? I will not be sorry for being angry at an asshole like you who accuses others of disloyalty to my son and his fellow Marines and all of our troops just because we disagree with the administration's polcies. Have you given blood yet? Have you volunteered at a VA home? Taken a diabled veteran to the doctor or out for lunch? Stopped at the recruiters office and brought coffee and donut? Anything rather than trash talk people you dont like? f***ing lazy big talk do nothing asshole. As long as my son is out there and you are all mouth here, be prepared to get slammed back at out in full measure for the accusations you make. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 As far as the protests goes, its there right but I'm worried that all of the cops dealing with the protesters is going to mean some cops aren't there to protect from an attack on us. Oh ya, I was watching tv and listening to the radio today and they mentioned that where there have been protests, in many cities those protesters have been drastically out numbered by those supporting the war waving the American Flag. Caught that on my drive to school. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 yeah and in the mean time while the firefighters and cops are focused on the protesters and keeping things peaceful, in comes mr. bad guy with a bomb and blows up the sears tower... smart move protesters....really smooth planning there........... did it hapoen Michelle? Did it happen? I seem to recall the Pentagon and the WTTs going down because of terrorists, not antiwar protestors. I love you deeply, and I love you family, but dont fling the s***. The terrorists come, it is sure as hell going to be because of what is happening in Iraq right now, not because of those who protest the war. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 As far as the protests goes, its there right but I'm worried that all of the cops dealing with the protesters is going to mean some cops aren't there to protect from an attack on us. Yes Jason and when thre Oscars are held all that police security will be there rather than protecting the public - traffic gets jammed, cops handling traffic at every Sox game all kinds of police are deployed to handle traffic rather than fight crime - and traffic tie ups happen when the president travels the tie ups of police personnal and traffic jams are horrendous the St Patricks Day parade pulls all kinds of cops off of usual duty for marching or for crowd control - favor locking the president in the white house and doing away with everything else, or are you just critical of deployed resources when it is people expressing their constitutional right to assemble? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Yeah nothing tells our troops, our brothers, sisters, families, that we are there for them and support them like protesting out on the streets, virtually telling them that they are doing wrong. You, my stay at home friend with the bold talk, do nothing for no one. Go enlist if you support this thing so. And don't give me this bulls*** about being disloyal to our troops. I will allow myself this righteous anger: :fyou asshole. My son is out there. And I God Bless my son. And I God bless all who serve. And I God bless everyone who was out expressing their patriotic opinion that the decisions made by the administration are wrong. The support for the troops is real and thorough. Whenever an expression of our opposition to the decisions of the government is linked by assholes like you to being disloyal to the troops, then you are doing nothing more than advancing the same tactics that Nazis, communists, fascists, McCarthyites and others have used to silence dissent - accusations of disloyalty. The freedom to assemble is a constitutional right for a reason, even if there is a cost. You want all the trains to run on time? Mussolini could give you that. The American system is sometimes messy but it is what it is all about. Saddam does not allow demonstrations opposed to his views - you attack demonstrations with views different than yours. Change your name to OfficerSaddam and it would be accurate with who your soul mate is. And I await your announcement of your impending service in support of our troops, or just what exactly you will do to support the troops. With my "Invade Iraq? No!" bumber sticker on my car,. I am welcome at my local VFW and American Legion because in this small town they can tell the difference between supporting the people who serve with not supporting the government's policy. What do do you to support the troops? I will not be sorry for being angry at an asshole like you who accuses others of disloyalty to my son and his fellow Marines and all of our troops just because we disagree with the administration's polcies. Have you given blood yet? Have you volunteered at a VA home? Taken a diabled veteran to the doctor or out for lunch? Stopped at the recruiters office and brought coffee and donut? Anything rather than trash talk people you dont like? f***ing lazy big talk do nothing asshole. As long as my son is out there and you are all mouth here, be prepared to get slammed back at out in full measure for the accusations you make. well if your angry at him you may as well be angry at me... the only difference here is that i have served....dont know for sure if he has or not.... i think that what they did today was the most stupid thing that any group of people could do.........not only did they disrespect the troops and their efforts today by protesting what they are trying to accomplish in the sand box over there...but..... they wasted valuable manhours of the men and women who are here to serve and protect this city from harm...........in case you hadnt noticed we are at a level red around these parts..... those manhours would have been better served training on things they need to know or resting up from the long hours they already put in ...............so be pissed with me too there cw.. i happen to agree with him whole heartedly......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 yeah and in the mean time while the firefighters and cops are focused on the protesters and keeping things peaceful, in comes mr. bad guy with a bomb and blows up the sears tower... smart move protesters....really smooth planning there........... 1) No one is going to attack a building like the Sears Tower at night when the thing's damn near empty. 2) If someone hijacks a plane and plans on flying it into the Sears Tower, all the cops in the world on the ground probably won't be able to do jack s*** about it, anyway. In fact, all having these protests do is get all the cops in the area downtown, so, I will take the other side and say that they make the ST safer in that there are 2 or 3 times as many cops and fire fighters in the area than what would be there usually. 3) If a terrorist actually put together an elaborate plot to destroy the Sears Tower in the matter of HOURS in which this protest took place he would set the world record for for terrorism by weeks. Let's think people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 yeah and in the mean time while the firefighters and cops are focused on the protesters and keeping things peaceful, in comes mr. bad guy with a bomb and blows up the sears tower... smart move protesters....really smooth planning there........... did it hapoen Michelle? Did it happen? I seem to recall the Pentagon and the WTTs going down because of terrorists, not antiwar protestors. I love you deeply, and I love you family, but dont fling the s***. The terrorists come, it is sure as hell going to be because of what is happening in Iraq right now, not because of those who protest the war. no cw it didnt happen but what if it had.. the little yuppie assholes with their stupidity would have hampered any efforts that the police and firefighters would have put forth in trying to contain that situation.. and they are still out there wasting precious time of the police and firefighters.. but mayor daley just started having them arrested.....GOOD FOR HIM............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 so does the St Patricks Day parade, Columbus Day Parade, Bub Billiken parade, and the crowds at every Sox, Bulls, Cuibs and Bears game (Hawks too few fans to count) so what's the point? Abolish them all? Or is that life in the big city, especially constitutionally protected life? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 As far as the protests goes, its there right but I'm worried that all of the cops dealing with the protesters is going to mean some cops aren't there to protect from an attack on us. Yes Jason and when thre Oscars are held all that police security will be there rather than protecting the public - traffic gets jammed, cops handling traffic at every Sox game all kinds of police are deployed to handle traffic rather than fight crime - and traffic tie ups happen when the president travels the tie ups of police personnal and traffic jams are horrendous the St Patricks Day parade pulls all kinds of cops off of usual duty for marching or for crowd control - favor locking the president in the white house and doing away with everything else, or are you just critical of deployed resources when it is people expressing their constitutional right to assemble? You read the rest of my post Vince. I said they have their right. At my school, I saw some of the anti war protesters and it was freaking ridiculous. All they were doing was dropping a constant stream of swear words. These are supposed to be people wanting "peace". How can you do that when you struggle to have a non violent protest, and I consider swearing at people who discuss things with you a form of violence, even if it isn't phyisical. Luckily, there aren't many protesters at my school. I'd have no problem with them if they weren't tryign to force their views on others with the approach that only they are right. I go through mine with the belief that I think I am right, but since I can't look into the future, then its not 100% that I am right, therefor, other people can say what they want, and I don't have to change their mind, although I can discuss the facts with them. I've also talked with a few of the protesters at my school, and they don't even know what this war is about. They keep talking about it being a war over oil. Then I say, hey, its not a war about oil, now that could be a underlying reason (I don't know, but I honestly don't believe it is a reason, if it is it is not the reason they are there and they would be their if Iraq had it or not), but when I bring up the Resolution and the fact that he's already using weapons that he supposedly didn't have, tells me that the US intell was right all along. This guy is keeping his weapons and he's a threat. How can a guy not be a threat if he's used the stuff on his own people. What kind of a sicko does that. That would be like one of us pointing a gun and whacking our family members (I'm sure Saddam wouldn't hesitate to do that either). How can you be in a peaceful society, when you have someone like that running a country with the capabilities of biological weapons and other weapons of mass destruction. You can deny the fact that he has biological weapons (but those missiles he used today were against what he was supposed to have and they are considered weapons of mass destruction). Then they say everyone is against the war, think of all the protests that happened so many times. Their are always people against anywar and they are typically more vocal then those in favor of it, simply because they are trying to change an opinion, while the people in favor of it, don't have to, because things are going similar to how they like them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 yeah and in the mean time while the firefighters and cops are focused on the protesters and keeping things peaceful, in comes mr. bad guy with a bomb and blows up the sears tower... smart move protesters....really smooth planning there........... 1) No one is going to attack a building like the Sears Tower at night when the thing's damn near empty. 2) If someone hijacks a plane and plans on flying it into the Sears Tower, all the cops in the world on the ground probably won't be able to do jack s*** about it, anyway. In fact, all having these protests do is get all the cops in the area downtown, so, I will take the other side and say that they make the ST safer in that there are 2 or 3 times as many cops and fire fighters in the area than what would be there usually. 3) If a terrorist actually put together an elaborate plot to destroy the Sears Tower in the matter of HOURS in which this protest took place he would set the world record for for terrorism by weeks. Let's think people. umm hello mcfly... anyone home... empty????? have you ever been in the tower???? its never, ever, ever, never empty... when the offices are closed there are a few thousand people who live in there and dine in there and visit there on a nightly basis...........its NEVER EMPTY........second of all come out of your plastic bubble little boy long enough to realize that there may very well already be a plan in the works to destroy it.... how do you know there isnt.... how do you know that it wasnt thought of when 9-11 happened????? if some little dot headed assholes can sneak into our country, take flying lessons, plan a course of attack, and then carry it out using only a stupid little box cutter as a weapon to take over a f***ing air craft, then how far fectched is it that a plan could be in the works to blow up the tallest f***ing building in the united states????? geez us if you had any sense at all you would realize that in doing so they take down our financial district as well since it sits below the f***ing tower........not to mention half the f***ing city as well...... why dont you think before you make a judgement like the one you just did...............cause you never know if the plan is there or not.. thats why they call them terrorists.... you dont see them coming........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Jason, I have been out there through the years - I have also marched with the Chicago Police for two-officer squad cars, with the Native Americans to return unused federal land according to treaty, for money for cancer research, for choice in the abortion issue, for civil rights, and for Jesus Christ as Savior of All. Also talked to plenty of people on the other side of all those issues. There are indeed loons on all sides and I think the % is about the same. I was also at a Sly and the family Stone free concert in Grant park that was tear gassed by the Chicago police where they forced the crowd across Lake Shore Drive in rush hour without stoipping tarffic so I get a perverse pleasure in seeing LSD blocked off. Again, I have marched for the police and have a LA deputy sheriff cousin shot and killed in the line of duty so I am not anti police. Hell, you can sit with fans at Comiskey who still think Norton is on the team. I suppose sometimes we should be happy people show up. Sorry your exepreinces had a higher %% of loons than normal. Try again. I don't doubt your experience at all because I know that everyone out there is not there for a reason they can express. But think of al;l of those who woudl, like to be there but couldn't, who could articulate their reasons well. So it evens out. Now congratulate me on my touting Central Michigan to beat Creighton. Did you follow my tip, or did you go Creighton in your bracket? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 Nope, I had Creighton over Duke eventually. Shows what I knew, lol. I saw the score today and was like, damn CW was right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OfficerKarkovice Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 You, my stay at home friend with the bold talk, do nothing for no one. Go enlist if you support this thing so. And don't give me this bulls*** about being disloyal to our troops. I will allow myself this righteous anger: :fyou asshole. My son is out there. And I God Bless my son. And I God bless all who serve. And I God bless everyone who was out expressing their patriotic opinion that the decisions made by the administration are wrong. The support for the troops is real and thorough. Whenever an expression of our opposition to the decisions of the government is linked by assholes like you to being disloyal to the troops, then you are doing nothing more than advancing the same tactics that Nazis, communists, fascists, McCarthyites and others have used to silence dissent - accusations of disloyalty. The freedom to assemble is a constitutional right for a reason, even if there is a cost. You want all the trains to run on time? Mussolini could give you that. The American system is sometimes messy but it is what it is all about. Saddam does not allow demonstrations opposed to his views - you attack demonstrations with views different than yours. Change your name to OfficerSaddam and it would be accurate with who your soul mate is. And I await your announcement of your impending service in support of our troops, or just what exactly you will do to support the troops. With my "Invade Iraq? No!" bumber sticker on my car,. I am welcome at my local VFW and American Legion because in this small town they can tell the difference between supporting the people who serve with not supporting the government's policy. What do you do to support the troops? I will not be sorry for being angry at an asshole like you who accuses others of disloyalty to my son and his fellow Marines and all of our troops just because we disagree with the administration's polcies. Have you given blood yet? Have you volunteered at a VA home? Taken a diabled veteran to the doctor or out for lunch? Stopped at the recruiters office and brought coffee and donut? Anything rather than trash talk people you dont like? f***ing lazy big talk do nothing asshole. As long as my son is out there and you are all mouth here, be prepared to get slammed back at out in full measure for the accusations you make. You are the biggest piece of motherf***ing s*** I have ever seen in my life. You're damn right God Bless your son...I wonder how he feels that his dad is out in the streets protesting the same damn thing that he is fighting and putting his life on the line for. Yeah you're right jackass I'm a f***ing Nazi because I am saying that by protesting the war we aren't supporting our troops. You have every right to disagree with the decisions of the administration TO A CERTAIN POINT. Up until the minute that Bush declared war you can argue whatever you want...but the second are troops are over there fighting you better sack up and support the cause and just hope it goes as well as possible. Oh yeah me and my soulmate Saddam have a date next weekend to discuss what demonstrations accomplish. And since any pro-war supporters apparently do nothing to support the troops like you protesters do, then then tell me what you think is a better gesture. 1) You on the street with signs saying No War with Iraq. Or 2) Me spending part of my afternoon writing letters that will be delivered to the soldiers in Iraq telling them that we are thinking about them and we are all behind them and hope they return safely. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THE f*** YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT YOU f***ING COCKSUCKER!!! Just because your son has 100 times the loyalty to our nation and is a brave American fighting for freedom doesn't give you the right to tell anyone what is the right thing to do. :fyou f*** YOU :fyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 HSC, as you know I was at the Lyric Opera on Monday night cause I called you (you never called back ) and as you know it stands in the shadow of the Sears Tower. Do any of us look at it anymore and not imagine planes slamming into it? Nothing on the ground would save it and as you say the area of devastation would be vast. I think those at the opera, at least, the waiting crowds outside, would be crushed in the downfall of debris. What would have prevented September 11th were if the ticket agents had fololowed their SOP: groups of people paying cash at the kast minute for one way tickets are by those facts alone more than suspicious, met the terrorst profile, to not take their money and call security. It was not done, to sell a few more seats, or becase they slipped up on their job, violated procedure. Some airline personnel who did not do their SOP caused a lot of damage in so many many ways beyond the lives lost that day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doubleM23 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 umm hello mcfly... anyone home... empty????? have you ever been in the tower???? its never, ever, ever, never empty... when the offices are closed there are a few thousand people who live in there and dine in there and visit there on a nightly basis...........its NEVER EMPTY........second of all come out of your plastic bubble little boy long enough to realize that there may very well already be a plan in the works to destroy it.... how do you know there isnt.... how do you know that it wasnt thought of when 9-11 happened????? if some little dot headed assholes can sneak into our country, take flying lessons, plan a course of attack, and then carry it out using only a stupid little box cutter as a weapon to take over a f***ing air craft, then how far fectched is it that a plan could be in the works to blow up the tallest f***ing building in the united states????? geez us if you had any sense at all you would realize that in doing so they take down our financial district as well since it sits below the f***ing tower........not to mention half the f***ing city as well...... why dont you think before you make a judgement like the one you just did...............cause you never know if the plan is there or not.. thats why they call them terrorists.... you dont see them coming........... Ummmmmmmmmmmm... The Sears Tower wasn' ever a target. No, its never empty, but the terrorists we're used to dealing with struck the WTC and Pentagon in the early morning for a reason. That's when they're most full of people. That, and I really don't think that having cops and fire fighters sitting around doing nothing (as opposed to being downtown, a few blocks from the building) would really decrease the death count by thousands and thousands if someone ever did hit the building. That, and the structure of the Sears Tower is much sturidier than the WTC. You're just straining to make excuses as to why the war protests are a bad idea. I suppose a meteor could come crashing to the Earth and destroy the Loop and it would be the protestor's fault all the cops and fire fighters died because if there was no protest they wouldn't be there. Or Godzilla could emerge from Lake Michigan. Or vicious, violent aliens could attack Chicago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hotsoxchick1 Posted March 21, 2003 Share Posted March 21, 2003 HSC, as you know I was at the Lyric Opera on Monday night cause I called you (you never called back ) and as you know it stands in the shadow of the Sears Tower. Do any of us look at it anymore and not imagine planes slamming into it? Nothing on the ground would save it and as you say the area of devastation would be vast. I think those at the opera, at least, the waiting crowds outside, would be crushed in the downfall of debris. What would have prevented September 11th were if the ticket agents had fololowed their SOP: groups of people paying cash at the kast minute for one way tickets are by those facts alone more than suspicious, met the terrorst profile, to not take their money and call security. It was not done, to sell a few more seats, or becase they slipped up on their job, violated procedure. Some airline personnel who did not do their SOP caused a lot of damage in so many many ways beyond the lives lost that day. i tried to call the cell phone but alas you never have it turned on..... ..... and im just commenting on the fact that its possible and the sears tower is never empty as doubl so stated it was.....i know there were tons of things that could have prevented the 9-11 fate.....proceedures werent followed and such....im sure that some brave souls most likely could have wrestled the box cutter away or something .. what ever.... one flight did what they could and chose to crash into a field and prevent another slam into a building.......so anything is possible...as is a possibility of the sears tower coming down... just tryin to wake up doubs eyes to facts...............nothing more nothing less............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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