Guest JimH Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 It should be obvious now that since this group of players has underachieved, shown a complete lack of fundamentals, played heartless baseball, gotten humiliated by a team with less talent, repeatedly choked in pressure situations, etc. under TWO DIFFERENT managers, the problem AIN'T the manager. Regardless of who that happens to be. The problem is the players, and many of them need to be shown the door. How right you are. On these lineups, I really believe it's because they've already made decisions on some of these guys. The biggest head scratcher to me has been Valdez, but Guillen knows him from Florida and says he knows what Valdez can do. Adkins, Cotts, Bajenaru have gotten ample time, especially with Jackson getting released. Uribe has gotten lots of time, Harris has played a lot too. Crede is in there all the time. The only guy who's been mysteriously absent is Borchard, and based on what he's done I can't really say I blame Ozzie for not putting him in there. It means little, but they are still striving to finish .500 or better and there is a small monetary incentive to finish 2nd vs. 3rd. I'm not defending Guillen here but I think there are legit reasons for some of these moves. As far as shuffling the batting order, I see no problem with that when you're out of contention ... see what guys can do in other situations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Yes. Ozzie's a joke as manager. He's only been wearing a major league uniform since 1985 and knows nothing about the game. We all are much better at putting together a lineup and we all know when to s*** can somebody be they are going to blow 2 saves. So on and so forth, blah blah blah .... I never said Ozzie wasn't a tremendous player. Because he was. But being a good player definitely doesn't translate to good managerial skills. They are completely different. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I never said Ozzie wasn't a tremendous player. Because he was. But being a good player definitely doesn't translate to good managerial skills. They are completely different. He wasn't talking about playing skills being the same as managerial skills. He was referring to Guillen being around Major league baseball since 1985 and being knowledgeable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 It should be obvious now that since this group of players has underachieved, shown a complete lack of fundamentals, played heartless baseball, gotten humiliated by a team with less talent, repeatedly choked in pressure situations, etc. under TWO DIFFERENT managers, the problem AIN'T the manager. Regardless of who that happens to be. The problem is the players, and many of them need to be shown the door. Is there a chance.... A slight possibility.... That both managers were bad? I mean, wow, a sample space of TWO MANAGERS. Just like you said. There's no way both could be uncapable to get the job done, right? Wrong. I'd say there are more incompetent managers in this league than there are competent ones. As long as we agree on this, there is a chance (greater than 25% mind you) that both Ozzie Guillen and Jerry Manuel had no chance at turning this team around. Although injuries made Ozzie's currect tenure more difficult. EDIT: Don't misinterpret this as me dismissing players for all blame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 He wasn't talking about playing skills being the same as managerial skills. He was referring to Guillen being around Major league baseball since 1985 and being knowledgeable. No, note the sarcasm with which he says "Yes. Ozzie's a joke as manager." Implying he isn't. Then he goes on to the classic 'I'm sure you could do a better job' rebuttle, which never really makes any sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wong & Owens Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Is there a chance.... A slight possibility.... That both managers were bad? I mean, wow, a sample space of TWO MANAGERS. Just like you said. There's no way both could be uncapable to get the job done, right? Wrong. I'd say there are more incompetent managers in this league than there are competent ones. As long as we agree on this, there is a chance (greater than 25% mind you) that both Ozzie Guillen and Jerry Manuel had no chance at turning this team around. Although injuries made Ozzie's currect tenure more difficult. EDIT: Don't misinterpret this as me dismissing players for all blame. You're giving me the impression that you think there IS a manager somewhere that would turn this team into a division champ. You give managers too much credit. There's not a manager alive that could get this group to play the game the way it needs to be played in order to be considered a contender. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 No, note the sarcasm with which he says "Yes. Ozzie's a joke as manager." Implying he isn't. Then he goes on to the classic 'I'm sure you could do a better job' rebuttle, which never really makes any sense. What would you do differently than Guillen, and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 You're giving me the impression that you think there IS a manager somewhere that would turn this team into a division champ. You give managers too much credit. There's not a manager alive that could get this group to play the game the way it needs to be played in order to be considered a contender. Certainly not well enough to win the division, that's for sure. Simply put, the core can't execute a winning baseball strategy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 It should be obvious now that since this group of players has underachieved, shown a complete lack of fundamentals, played heartless baseball, gotten humiliated by a team with less talent, repeatedly choked in pressure situations, etc. under TWO DIFFERENT managers, the problem AIN'T the manager. Regardless of who that happens to be. The problem is the players, and many of them need to be shown the door. While I agree with this, I'm still glad Jerry Manuel is gone. He just didn't seem to care. Ozzie, for all his faults, cares a lot, and that's worth something to me. I think he's been okay for a rook, and if he has some learning to do as a manager, at least his growing pains weren't majorly responsible for this year's team falling out of contention. They're a part of the equation, for sure, but losing their two most potent offensive players was MUCH more damaging to this year's team than a rookie manager. I'll still take Oz over Sleepy Jerry anytime. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 It should be obvious now that since this group of players has underachieved, shown a complete lack of fundamentals, played heartless baseball, gotten humiliated by a team with less talent, repeatedly choked in pressure situations, etc. under TWO DIFFERENT managers, the problem AIN'T the manager. Regardless of who that happens to be. The problem is the players, and many of them need to be shown the door. You might be right. In past postings I have advocated keeping Thomas, Rowand, Lee, Buehrle, Garcia and Contreras, and upgrading at EVERY other spot on the team. I know to do this would require a payroll of $100 (or more) million, but, if we are EVER going to contend for a World Series, we gotta "run with the big dogs"! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Is there a chance.... A slight possibility.... That both managers were bad? I mean, wow, a sample space of TWO MANAGERS. Just like you said. There's no way both could be uncapable to get the job done, right? Wrong. I'd say there are more incompetent managers in this league than there are competent ones. As long as we agree on this, there is a chance (greater than 25% mind you) that both Ozzie Guillen and Jerry Manuel had no chance at turning this team around. Although injuries made Ozzie's currect tenure more difficult. EDIT: Don't misinterpret this as me dismissing players for all blame. There's more than just a chance. Really how much longer do we have to tolerate this perpetual mediocrity (or worse) that typifies the Sox? 2017 will be around before you know it. Will we get to celebrate 100 years of futility? I've been a Sox fan a long time but the last two years have really tried my patience. I've never seen such total ineptitude and total lack of heart. If you're not good enough to win a championship then you have lots of company. If you play stupid baseball in the field and on the basepaths, if you try to crush the baseball no matter what the situation that's another thing. Manuel was part of this overall aura of futility. So far the same is true of Ozzie. You know really good managers and coaches in all sports are strong enough to overcome a losing attitude. Vince Lombardi did it. So did Danny Murtaugh and Red Auerbach. All in different sports. Jim Hendry and the Cubs are at least trying. If they ever succeed we all might as well pack it in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 There's more than just a chance. Really how much longer do we have to tolerate this perpetual mediocrity (or worse) that typifies the Sox? 2017 will be around before you know it. Will we get to celebrate 100 years of futility? I've been a Sox fan a long time but the last two years have really tried my patience. I've never seen such total ineptitude and total lack of heart. If you're not good enough to win a championship then you have lots of company. If you play stupid baseball in the field and on the basepaths, if you try to crush the baseball no matter what the situation that's another thing. Manuel was part of this overall aura of futility. So far the same is true of Ozzie. You know really good managers and coaches in all sports are strong enough to overcome a losing attitude. Vince Lombardi did it. So did Danny Murtaugh and Red Auerbach. All in different sports. Jim Hendry and the Cubs are at least trying. If they ever succeed we all might as well pack it in. Sad but true. The Sox can't (won't) compete with the current ownership group at the helm. They are not committed to spending the money it takes to scout/sign the caliber of players necessary to contend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 You're giving me the impression that you think there IS a manager somewhere that would turn this team into a division champ. You give managers too much credit. There's not a manager alive that could get this group to play the game the way it needs to be played in order to be considered a contender. Maybe I'm just being that little kid who still believes in Santa Claus, but I honestly do think the right kind of manager really could turn these losers around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Maybe I'm just being that little kid who still believes in Santa Claus, but I honestly do think the right kind of manager really could turn these losers around. Like who, and based on what? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Like who, and based on what? I don't know who it would be, or if he would be available at the right time. Our players didn't respond to Manuel, very understandable. A leader he was not. They're not responding to Ozzie either. I think they view him as just one of the guys, a pal if you will. This being because of his age and attitude. This is a mistake in my eyes. He has to put himself way above the players, he is their coach. The few times I've seen him yell at players like they were little peons (Loaiza, Garcia) they immediately responded. He reminded them what their role was. I want Ozzie to use that fire he has on our players, instead of wasting it on umpires, MLB officials, and opposing managers. EDIT: I forgot the time he exploded in the dugout during the Angels game. Remember that? His son said it was the angriest he'd ever seen Ozzie. He let our guys really have it. All the players did after that was mount a three-run comeback against K-Rod and go on to win four straight games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Why is 3E8 getting raked over the coals? In baseball as in any business a good positive, dynamic boss can make all the difference in the world. Both are replete with examples of leaders who turned a losing culture into a positive winning one. The Sox with their bargain basement tactics can only hope to catch lightning in a bottle for a season. Building a winner for the long haul is totally out of the question as things now stand. Terry Bevington, Jerry Manuel and now Ozzie Guillen aren't the answer to our long standing problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 You can compare a baseball team to a race car...if you build it with inferior parts, it will be inferior to cars built with the best parts. On the other hand, you can build the best car in the world, but if your driver sucks, you won't win either. We know the Sox were "built" with inferior parts...what we do not know is whether our driver (Guillen) knows how to drive! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I don't know who it would be, or if he would be available at the right time. OK, at least you come out and say you don't know who might be a better fit, that's fine. What difference does it make? Guillen will be back anyway. I suggest they focus on changing the players, particularly the core. The core of this team has failed for 4 straight years and watched while the Minnesota Twins have kicked their ass. If the core is changed or at the very least there's a fair amount of turnover to weed out the underachievers or "never were" players ... and there's still failure, then it's fair to blame both the manager and the GM. Williams has shown a lot of faith in this core and it has bit all of us in the ass. At least two players from the core will be gone IMO, those being Valentin and Ordonez. The bullpen will look different, and if Williams has his way another starting pitcher will be brought in. We want winning baseball, and almost everyone on this site says it should be done the way the Twins do it: Fundamental baseball, hit-and-run, bunt, steal, great defense, good pitching, great bullpen, depth in the farm system to fill in gaps. OK ... Guillen has stated he wants exactly the same thing. So why replace him now, when he hasn't had the proper players to execute the strategy? It doesn't make sense, nor is it conducive to bringing new players in, when the manager is being changed all the time. And by the way, if Harold Baines is serious about not coming back, isn't that a perfect time to get Sandy Alomar as the bench coach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bulokis Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I do not agree with the lineups also. We need to play the young guys. Dont know why Valentin is still playing we need to see Valdez playing either at short or second base. Even if Borchard cant hit, play him maybe he gets all the struggling this year and play better next year. The season is all over. We suck!!!!!!!!! Give the young players a chance to play and maybe they play a more inspiring game than the veterans. We need to change the players we have. Its been 3 years that these Twins have played us like a fool. We need a mix of OBP guys and some power. Marlins and Braves have the speed, pesky hitting and power all in 1 team. We cant have this all or nothing power every year. I do not want Valentin back. Maybe its not the manager's fault, its the players that we have who falls on their assess each year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 This team needs a Jerry Sloan type coach. Always gets more then expected out of his players. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 This team needs a Jerry Sloan type coach. Always gets more then expected out of his players. Nahhhh, this team would SUCK at basketball..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Nahhhh, this team would SUCK at basketball..... Too short! And we play lousy defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Sell The TEAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe Phillip Morris is looking to buy a baseball team in chicago, they have the money. Maybe if we could out spend everyone we could at least make the playoffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 I know to do this would require a payroll of $100 (or more) million, but, if we are EVER going to contend for a World Series, we gotta "run with the big dogs"! Yeah, just like the big dogs that won the last two World Series....... they had payrolls nowhere near $100 million. You can't just throw money at the problem and expect that to be your answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 17, 2004 Share Posted September 17, 2004 Yeah, just like the big dogs that won the last two World Series....... they had payrolls nowhere near $100 million. You can't just throw money at the problem and expect that to be your answer. Those teams were built around speed, defense and pitching. The Sox are lacking in 2.5 out of the 3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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