ZoomSlowik Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 there is more to a player than batting average. This is a reason why he is one of the top fantasy players as well. He is so well rounded. His OBP is better than maggs, he plays better defense, and can steal bases with the best of them. Sounds good to me He's a good fantasy player because he hits homers and steals bases, those two things are hard to find together and steals have a lot more value in fantasy baseball than in real baseball. Batting average and OBP are two important things in real baseball. A comparison of those two numbers the last 4 years(I'm counting Magg's shortened 04) year BA OBP Maggs 2001 .305 .382 2002 .320 .381 2003 .317 .380 2004 .292 .351 Beltran 2001 .306 .352 2002 .273 .346 2003 .307 .389 2004 .267 .371 As you can see, there is a significant inconsistency in Beltran's numbers and is in general(obviously not every case so don't bother pointing that out) a dropoff in BA and OBP from a healthy Maggs, which was my point. This is also the first year that Beltran has hit over 30 homers. It's just something to consider when you want to give someone over $14 mil. He may be a good defender and have great speed, but he is not the dependable offensive machine like Bonds, Pujols, Ramirez, or Vlad(I'd like to throw a healthy Maggs in this group, but he isn't quite that good) that generally commands the type of salary he is expecting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted September 21, 2004 Author Share Posted September 21, 2004 Leadoff Rowand Beltran Frank Konerko Lee Crede/FA Davis/Burke Uribe/ss-2B Not bad a lineup With Beltran, PK wouldn't be around. But here's what a basic lineup could look like: 1 SS Vizquel 2 RF Rowand 3 CF Beltran 4 DH Frank 5 LF Lee 6 1b Gload 7 2B/ 3B Uribe I think upgrades could be made at C [a DAvis/ Burke platoon could work though] or 2b/ 3B, with Crede and/ or Willie Harris being traded, and the holes filled either via trade or free agency] [for example, A guy like Placido Polanco could play either 2b or 3B for the Sox] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Beltran has also not been playing in such a hitter friendly park, with so many hitter behind him. He was on a crappy team, with the exception of last year, when he was dominant against the sox at the CELL. And as you can see his OBP has been better than maggs over the past couple of seasons, which we need. As well as better defense and more stolen bases. This means more runs score, and we win. I'll take him\ OUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 BTW, nobody put Beltran in the same league offensively as well as payroll wise with Manny, bonds etc. Manny -2004 Salary: $20,409,542 Bonds- 2004 Salary: $18,000,000 Beltran 2004 Salary: $9,000,000 large difference OUt Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Beltran has also not been playing in such a hitter friendly park, with so many hitter behind him. He was on a crappy team, with the exception of last year, when he was dominant against the sox at the CELL. And as you can see his OBP has been better than maggs over the past couple of seasons, which we need. As well as better defense and more stolen bases. This means more runs score, and we win. I'll take him\ OUT You're actually counting this season as a fair comparison between Maggs and Beltran? The previous 3 years are much better comparisons. Beltran has been playing the whole year, the first part in front of Sweeney, the second part in a good hitters park in a loaded lineup. As for the hitter's park thing, Maggs hasn't really benefitted from it that much since the Cell only got ridiculously hitter friendly this season, when he has been hurt. He didn't exactly get a ton of support in the lineup either outside of 2000(Lee and Konerko are wildly inconsistent, Thomas is either good, hurt, or hitting about .260 recently), and usually seemed to be hitting at his best when the other guys were in their slumps. A typical healthy Maggs year is around .310 and .380, you could just about write that down before the season when he was healthy. That .380 isn't even that stellar(solid, but not elite) and Beltran has only been better than that once(last year), and has a career OBP of .354 :puke . What we really need is someone like Abreu, Kendall, or Ichiro; a guy that is around .400 OBP while still being able to run and get a hit when we need it. Beltran just seems to be a faster more expensive Carlos Lee. I'd still take him, but I'd hesitate to give him what he wants in terms of money. Guess what, he won't be getting only $9 mil next year. Those guys(Bonds, Manny, ect.) have gotten their big deals already, Beltran will this year. Clearly you expect that kind of offensive production when you make that kind of financial commitment, you don't want a $14 Mil man to merely contribute to the offense, he should carry it for a good chunk of the year. As for the "more runs, we win" part, Beltran has yet to make the playoffs and wasn't helping the Astros most of the year(not even that big a part on their recent hot streak, getting on base more often, but not hitting any better), so I wouldn't say that just yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 How could you say that Maggs hasnt been getting a ton of support from players that are hitting behind him. And as far as comparing Sweeney to Frank and Konerko, please. He hasnt once, in his career, hit 30 homers. He has broken the 100 RBI mark only twice. And that was in 99 and 2000. I do believe last year, Frank was in the hunt for the AL lead in homeruns , has only been under 100 rbi's three or four times, in his career. Has one of the best OBP ever seen. And this is without even putting Paulie's stats behind him. So if you really think Mike Sweeney is a powerhouse, and was the best hitter on the Royals team, and is comparable to Frank, then he may not make the HOF folks. And when Beltran was traded to the Astros, he was one of the only bright spots on the team until they got hot, up until that point, most of the lineup was slumping. Beltran, will probably never touch the power numbers of Maggs, nor have as good a batting avg either. But there is much more to a player than power numbers and avg. I do believe that we have been one of the top teams in the league in homers, and for even a few year, batting avg. But we still cant make the playoffs. And until we change the face of this team, we never will this is my last response to this argument as we are hijacking the post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesox61382 Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Here would be my lineup with Beltran(similar to the other thread) Trade Konerko to Atlanta for Furcal - I think they have similar trade value and a tweak here or there could get this deal done. The Sox would probably save 3-4M and they would get the high BA, OBP, speedster, SS that they need. Trade Garland and Crede to Seattle for Winn and Meche - I am tired of waiting on Garland and Crede to develop. Winn has quietly become a very solid and consistant player over the past couple of years. He is also signed for a reasonable price. Throw in a good young arm like Meche and it seems like a good deal for both teams. Trade CLee to LA for Penny - LA might not be willing to make this trade since they gave up a lot to get Penny, and because Perez is a FA and Nomo has really struggled of late. The Sox would be taking a chance on Penny, but when he is healthy he is a darn good pitcher and still young. The Sox would also save a couple of mil. Sign Koskie - The guy is a perfect fit. A solid complete player. Sign Beltran - The guy is the most complete player in the majors. Sign Morris/Perez - Sign the cheaper of these two guys as insurance if Penny gets hurt or Contreras really struggles(possible moved to pen as a closer). Pick up Everett's option as insurance against another Thomas injury or if Gload is a bust as an everyday player. Lineup Furcal SS Winn LF Beltran CF Thomas DH Koskie 3B Rowand RF Gload 1B Uribe 2B Davis C I would love this lineup. You add improved BA with Furcal never hitting below .275 in the majors, Winn hitting .285+ the past 3 seasons, Beltran with a career BA of .284, and Koskie with a career BA of .280. You add speed with Furcal, Winn, and Beltran all with at least 20+ SB at this point(and more importantly at a high sucess rate), plus Koskie and Gload have above average speed at their respective positions(Koskie on pace for his 4th straight double digit SB season). The increased speed would also be noticed on the basepads(not just stealing) and on defense. You add more plate disipline with Furcal, Winn, and Koskie all having at least 50+ BB at this point. You don't lose much/if any power since Furcal and Winn are both on pace to hit 15+ HR each, Koskie is a consistant 15-25 HR guy, and Beltran should give you 30+ HR. The lineup would have perfect balance with Furcal and Winn being lefties, Beltran a switch hitter, Thomas a righty, Koskie a lefty, Rowand a righty, Gload a lefty, Uribe a righty, and Davis a switch hitter. Finally, this is a great defensive team(maybe the best in baseball). You can make an arguement that the Sox have an above average defensive player at every position. The defensive outfield of Winn, Beltran, and Rowand might be the best in the game, and would cover some serious ground(since they are all natural CF). The improved D alone would probably help the pitching improve a little bit. Rotation Garcia Buehrle Morris/Perez Penny Contreras This would be a pretty darn good rotation, especially if Penny stays healthy and Contreras figures it out. It would be nice to finally have a consistant 5th starter. Plus you have a guy like Meche in the pen who could pitch in the rotation as insurance Bullpen Takatsu Marte Politte Meche Cotts Diaz/Grilli/Adkins This would be a decent pen and should be slightly better than this year. I really think that Meche could excel in the pen with his nasty stuff and give the Sox another quality right. Bench Everett Harris Burke Borchard Valdez The bench is pretty solid. The top 3 would be getting the majority of PT. Harris adds a speedster and defensive replacement to the team. I already explained Everett's importance. Burke has looked like a solid backup so far. Borchard would be a 5th outfield and get rare PT. Valdez is a bench warmer and will play a similar role as Harris. If my calculations are right, than this team would cost approximately 85M(give or take a couple of million). While it might be a little overbudget, I think this team has playoffs written all over it. With an increase in attendance this year and the excitement that an active offseason provides(highlighted by the signing of the most sought after FA in Beltran), I think JR would be wise to invest 85M in the above team. Unfortunately it isn't even close to happening and Sox fans will have to live with another mediocre team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 he hasnt played a full season every year he has been in cinci, I hope you are kidding. he is as helpful to the reds as maggs was to us this year Kidding about what? I said no to Griffey, read the post again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 Here would be my lineup with Beltran(similar to the other thread) Trade Konerko to Atlanta for Furcal - I think they have similar trade value and a tweak here or there could get this deal done. The Sox would probably save 3-4M and they would get the high BA, OBP, speedster, SS that they need. Trade Garland and Crede to Seattle for Winn and Meche - I am tired of waiting on Garland and Crede to develop. Winn has quietly become a very solid and consistant player over the past couple of years. He is also signed for a reasonable price. Throw in a good young arm like Meche and it seems like a good deal for both teams. Trade CLee to LA for Penny - LA might not be willing to make this trade since they gave up a lot to get Penny, and because Perez is a FA and Nomo has really struggled of late. The Sox would be taking a chance on Penny, but when he is healthy he is a darn good pitcher and still young. The Sox would also save a couple of mil. Sign Koskie - The guy is a perfect fit. A solid complete player. Sign Beltran - The guy is the most complete player in the majors. Sign Morris/Perez - Sign the cheaper of these two guys as insurance if Penny gets hurt or Contreras really struggles(possible moved to pen as a closer). Pick up Everett's option as insurance against another Thomas injury or if Gload is a bust as an everyday player. Lineup Furcal SS Winn LF Beltran CF Thomas DH Koskie 3B Rowand RF Gload 1B Uribe 2B Davis C I would love this lineup. You add improved BA with Furcal never hitting below .275 in the majors, Winn hitting .285+ the past 3 seasons, Beltran with a career BA of .284, and Koskie with a career BA of .280. You add speed with Furcal, Winn, and Beltran all with at least 20+ SB at this point(and more importantly at a high sucess rate), plus Koskie and Gload have above average speed at their respective positions(Koskie on pace for his 4th straight double digit SB season). The increased speed would also be noticed on the basepads(not just stealing) and on defense. You add more plate disipline with Furcal, Winn, and Koskie all having at least 50+ BB at this point. You don't lose much/if any power since Furcal and Winn are both on pace to hit 15+ HR each, Koskie is a consistant 15-25 HR guy, and Beltran should give you 30+ HR. The lineup would have perfect balance with Furcal and Winn being lefties, Beltran a switch hitter, Thomas a righty, Koskie a lefty, Rowand a righty, Gload a lefty, Uribe a righty, and Davis a switch hitter. Finally, this is a great defensive team(maybe the best in baseball). You can make an arguement that the Sox have an above average defensive player at every position. The defensive outfield of Winn, Beltran, and Rowand might be the best in the game, and would cover some serious ground(since they are all natural CF). The improved D alone would probably help the pitching improve a little bit. Rotation Garcia Buehrle Morris/Perez Penny Contreras This would be a pretty darn good rotation, especially if Penny stays healthy and Contreras figures it out. It would be nice to finally have a consistant 5th starter. Plus you have a guy like Meche in the pen who could pitch in the rotation as insurance Bullpen Takatsu Marte Politte Meche Cotts Diaz/Grilli/Adkins This would be a decent pen and should be slightly better than this year. I really think that Meche could excel in the pen with his nasty stuff and give the Sox another quality right. Bench Everett Harris Burke Borchard Valdez The bench is pretty solid. The top 3 would be getting the majority of PT. Harris adds a speedster and defensive replacement to the team. I already explained Everett's importance. Burke has looked like a solid backup so far. Borchard would be a 5th outfield and get rare PT. Valdez is a bench warmer and will play a similar role as Harris. If my calculations are right, than this team would cost approximately 85M(give or take a couple of million). While it might be a little overbudget, I think this team has playoffs written all over it. With an increase in attendance this year and the excitement that an active offseason provides(highlighted by the signing of the most sought after FA in Beltran), I think JR would be wise to invest 85M in the above team. Unfortunately it isn't even close to happening and Sox fans will have to live with another mediocre team. if they could ever pull this off (not likely) this team would be very exciting to watch. I like the way you think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted September 21, 2004 Share Posted September 21, 2004 How could you say that Maggs hasnt been getting a ton of support from players that are hitting behind him. And as far as comparing Sweeney to Frank and Konerko, please. He hasnt once, in his career, hit 30 homers. He has broken the 100 RBI mark only twice. And that was in 99 and 2000. I do believe last year, Frank was in the hunt for the AL lead in homeruns , has only been under 100 rbi's three or four times, in his career. Has one of the best OBP ever seen. And this is without even putting Paulie's stats behind him. So if you really think Mike Sweeney is a powerhouse, and was the best hitter on the Royals team, and is comparable to Frank, then he may not make the HOF folks. And when Beltran was traded to the Astros, he was one of the only bright spots on the team until they got hot, up until that point, most of the lineup was slumping. Beltran, will probably never touch the power numbers of Maggs, nor have as good a batting avg either. But there is much more to a player than power numbers and avg. I do believe that we have been one of the top teams in the league in homers, and for even a few year, batting avg. But we still cant make the playoffs. And until we change the face of this team, we never will this is my last response to this argument as we are hijacking the post Look at how the Sox hitters have really done the past few years. We like to think that they are good, but outside of 2000 Lee, Konerko, and Thomas have been pretty inconsistent. Lee hit .269 in 01 and .264 in 02, and really came on at the end last season to get those numbers. Konerko was absolutely terrible last season, and hit virtually nothing after the All-star break in 2002. He had a decent but not stellar year in 01(.282 with 32 homers). Frank only played 20 games in 2001, and hit only .252 and .267 in 02 and 03, with 28 and 42 HR respectively. Also, he's only driven in 100 runs twice in the last 6 years due to in part to injury and in part to a drop in average from his better years(hasn't been close to .300 since 2000), and his much touted on base percentage was .316 in that short 2001 and .361 in 2002(returned to form a bit the last two years at .390 and .434). Those kind of averages will severely hurt the number of runs you can score. Plus the guys in front of Maggs have been absolute garbage, while Berroa was a monster last season and often batted in front of Beltran(big reason he killed his previous highs in just about everything). That greatly affects their RBI numbers. Say what you want about Sweeney, but he consistently hits around .300 when he is healthy. His career numbers are not close to Frank's, but most of when Frank was a stud was before Magglio's time. He hit .304, .340, and .293 in the past 3 years and drove in 99(147), 86(126), and 83(108) in short years the past few. He really helps Beltran's run numbers when he is in the lineup. So what if he never hit more than 30 homers(he had 29 twice)? There's a lot more to baseball than homers. You were so quick to dismiss average, but which is more important, something that will happen between 30 and 50 times in an entire season for a good player, or something that happens roughly between 180 and 200 times? Beltran doesn't really have much to do with the Astro's cold/hot streak. He's only hit 2 homers and had 5 RBI in September, although he was hot during a two series stretch right at the beginning of the streak(he basically just crushed the Phillies and the Cubs with 6 homers in a 5 game stretch). I'll agree that power doesn't win games, but average is usually a good sign(look at the Red Sox and Braves recently). Clearly pitching has been suspect the last few years, and Beltran doesn't solve that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted September 24, 2004 Author Share Posted September 24, 2004 Beltran doesn't really have much to do with the Astro's cold/hot streak. He's only hit 2 homers and had 5 RBI in September, although he was hot during a two series stretch right at the beginning of the streak(he basically just crushed the Phillies and the Cubs with 6 homers in a 5 game stretch). I'll agree that power doesn't win games, but average is usually a good sign(look at the Red Sox and Braves recently). During the Astros 20-3 record from Aug 15- Sept. 8, Beltran was 27 for 76 [a .355 avg], with 23 rbi's, 28 runs, 10 SB, and 10 Hr's. Clearly he had nothing to do with helping Houston during this streak didn't MLB also name Beltran NL player of the month or something for Aug? Probably not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFanForever Posted September 24, 2004 Share Posted September 24, 2004 During the Astros 20-3 record from Aug 15- Sept. 8, Beltran was 27 for 76 [a .355 avg], with 23 rbi's, 28 runs, 10 SB, and 10 Hr's. Clearly he had nothing to do with helping Houston during this streak didn't MLB also name Beltran NL player of the month or something for Aug? Probably not Nice post Beck. Always good to see someone with the stats and facts to support their argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted September 24, 2004 Author Share Posted September 24, 2004 Nice post Beck. Always good to see someone with the stats and facts to support their argument. I do what I can Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted September 25, 2004 Share Posted September 25, 2004 I do what I can Stats are so overrated! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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