FYI: Jeremy Reed

[Guest JimH]

I thought initially Seattle asked for Crede and Olivo, but KW wouldn't give up 2 ML starters.  So he proposed Reed or Borchard, instead.  You're telling me that all those stories were hooey, that Seattle was demanding Reed all along?

What I'm saying is Borchard never entered the picture. KW didn't offer him and Seattle didn't want him. It was a non issue as I understand it.

 

Many people on this site have said Williams should've just substituted Borchard for Reed, with little regard for which players Seattle really wanted.

 

As I understand it, Olivo was a given. There was discussion of Crede, and Williams did not want to give up two regulars. Given where the team was at in the standings, I can't blame him. Crede heated up in 2003 and it's my feeling that Williams felt Crede would shake out of the slump. I felt the same way, but Crede didn't come around and is still hitting in the .230's.

 

My understanding: it was Olivo and a prospect (which turned out to be Morse), along with either Reed or Crede.

[jackie hayes]

What I'm saying is Borchard never entered the picture.  KW didn't offer him and Seattle didn't want him.  It was a non issue as I understand it.

 

Many people on this site have said Williams should've just substituted Borchard for Reed, with little regard for which players Seattle really wanted.

 

As I understand it, Olivo was a given.  There was discussion of Crede, and Williams did not want to give up two regulars.  Given where the team was at in the standings, I can't blame him.  Crede heated up in 2003 and it's my feeling that Williams felt Crede would shake out of the slump.  I felt the same way, but Crede didn't come around and is still hitting in the .230's.

 

My understanding: it was Olivo and a prospect (which turned out to be Morse), along with either Reed or Crede.

That was my understanding. I'm just pointing out that they would have done the deal w/o Reed, and they would have done the deal w/o getting a contact hitter.

 

It wasn't as bad as the Ritchie deal, but it was pretty bad. There are few 3b in the league, if any, who've been as bad as Crede this season. The Sox could have picked someone up, or let Uribe handle it, and we would have been better off. Reed had shown the ability to do all the things we need most on offense, obp and fewer strikeouts. Not to mention, I think there was a lot of space between our offer and NY's. We gave up too much in this deal.

 

But I'm not saying Seattle would have accepted Borchard. Although I can't imagine what flaws they could find in his game...

[Guest JimH]

NY did not have the major league ready catching prospect. Their top catching prospect, Navarro I think his name is, is at least a year away. Yankees kept upping the ante though, that much is true. In fact, Seattle called Brian Cashman right before the deal was completed, to give the Yankees last shot. So I don't think there was a huge gap from what the Sox gave up vs. what the Yankees offered.

 

What this all comes down to is not so much Reed, but the disappointing year Crede has had. If Crede were living up to his rep and hitting, let's say 25+ HR's and hitting .270+, this is much less of an issue.

 

No denying Crede has been a big disappointment this year. KW showed faith in him, and Crede did not turn it around.

 

What will be interesting to me ... very interesting ... is whether the Sox have decided to trade Crede to the highest bidder. And what they'd get for him. I'd venture to say they will get quite a bit for him, if they decide to move in a different direction and go after a stop gap 3B guy like Koskie or Randa or someone like that.

[jackie hayes]

NY did not have the major league ready catching prospect.  Their top catching prospect, Navarro I think his name is, is at least a year away.  Yankees kept upping the ante though, that much is true.  In fact, Seattle called Brian Cashman right before the deal was completed, to give the Yankees last shot.  So I don't think there was a huge gap from what the Sox gave up vs. what the Yankees offered.

 

What this all comes down to is not so much Reed, but the disappointing year Crede has had.  If Crede were living up to his rep and hitting, let's say 25+ HR's and hitting .270+, this is much less of an issue.

 

No denying Crede has been a big disappointment this year.  KW showed faith in him, and Crede did not turn it around.

 

What will be interesting to me ... very interesting ... is whether the Sox have decided to trade Crede to the highest bidder.  And what they'd get for him.  I'd venture to say they will get quite a bit for him, if they decide to move in a different direction and go after a stop gap 3B guy like Koskie or Randa or someone like that.

Yeah, but the reports were that Cashman didn't even bother to put together a counter-offer at that point. It may have been close before Reed, but putting him in the deal made the gap huge. The Sox already had an advantage in Olivo v Navarro.

 

And I think you may be overestimating Crede's trade value now. He's had two full seasons and hasn't come around. He's even looking worse lately. Even interested teams know it's a big risk.

[Guest JimH]

Yeah, but the reports were that Cashman didn't even bother to put together a counter-offer at that point.  It may have been close before Reed, but putting him in the deal made the gap huge.  The Sox already had an advantage in Olivo v Navarro.

 

And I think you may be overestimating Crede's trade value now.  He's had two full seasons and hasn't come around.  He's even looking worse lately.  Even interested teams know it's a big risk.

Cashman had some pitching prospects ready to ship to Seattle, that was what narrowed the gap.

 

I'm not a huge fan of Crede but I definitely think he has good value ... very good value. He's 26 and many major league hitters don't really figure it out until age 27,28. He has power and his defense at 3B is above average. He hit .261 last year with I think 19 HR's and didn't strike out a ton ... about 80 in 520+ at bats so I would have to say this is his first real down year vs. having two down years.

 

I think you'd see lots of teams jumping at the chance to get Crede ... that is, if the Sox decide to move him. Not saying they'd get a #1 starter for him but they'd definitely get a good arm or two if that's what they wanted in return.

 

The key is, Josh Fields showed fairly well at Winston-Salem so the Sox know they have a legit prospect who could be ready for 2007. A stop gap solution may make sense. But it all depends on who would need a guy like Crede and what they have to trade in return.

[Rowand44]

My God, some of you people are so damn incredibly knee-jerk reactionary.

 

First of all, anyone who thinks Garcia would've just automatically signed here as a free agent this winter is misguided.  He was going to be traded, period.  Whatever team traded for him made certain they'd be able to lock him up for at least a 3 year deal.  Why do you think he signed the 3 year deal with the Sox shortly after the trade?  The Sox did their homework and knew they'd be able to sign him.

 

Anywhere he would've been traded ... namely Chicago or New York ... a contract extension would have been signed.  Seattle had zero intention of letting him walk as a free agent, they were going to trade him.

 

If the Yankees had gotten Garcia and it came out the Sox were the bridesmaid, a lot of you same people would be calling for William's head, saying he couldn't get a deal done.

 

In addition, many of you think the Sox should be able to go ahead and trade their underachieving junk for some other team's stud players.  Umm, reality check.  It doesn't work that way.  Seattle wanted a young catcher, and Reed.

 

Meanwhile, some of you guys look at Jeremy Reed's 31 at bats in September for a team that has nothing to play for, and trash the trade.  Miguel Olivo is hitting just about the same as Ben Davis, in the .230's.  He's also struck out 79 times. Conventiently, though, Olivo is not mentioned ... or at least until he gets three hits in a game ... whereupon somebody else will chime in and say with 20/20 hindsight how stupid the trade was.  The shortstop in the trade, Morse, had exactly zero stolen bases for Seattle's AA team.  Just the kind of guy we want for our small ball team, right 2nd guessers?

 

It is real easy to sit here and say it should've been Olivo and Crede instead of Olivo and Reed.  Who exactly would've played 3rd base full time?  Don't say Uribe, he was filling in all over the infield.  I will argue that Crede has more value among baseball people than does Reed.  3rd basemen are tougher to come by than doubles hitters.

 

I'm not knocking Reed or his potential, but get real you people.  You got a good #2 pitcher locked up for 3 years and you've got two prospects coming up in Anderson and Sweeney who have similar talent to Reed.

 

I don't blame Williams for that trade at all, not one bit.  He has done some things wrong, but that trade was not one of them.

 

Oh, and P.S. -  For the last time, it was not a question of Reed or Borchard.  Seattle did not want Borchard.

Great Post.

[jackie hayes]

Although JimH is usually level in his posts, I don't think this one was fair. It was proof by stereotype: "a lot of you", "many of you", "some of you". Not me, not me, not me, I say to those. If the first had happened, I would have just laughed at Bill Bavasi for making another bad move, b/c even w/o Reed (say, w/ Crede), we could top NY's offer. As for the second, I haven't made any absolutely ludicrous trade proposals, although it's odd that we can trade Crede for something but not our "underachieving junk". As for the third, no, I'm thinking more of Reed's minor league career.

 

Meanwhile, you are replying to OldSocks, who said the main point of your post (that switching Borchard and Reed is a pipedream) a long time ago.

 

Lots of people complained about the trade then and have disliked it ever since then. Of course we can disagree, but don't pull this "I'm going to tell you other people what you think" crap. I know what I think, and you don't have it right.

[redandwhite]

Didn't want to start a new thread, but how's everyone like the new avatar?

 

[santo=dorf]

that seems to make sense, but there were reports in the newspaper that said otherwise.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/spor...623_alnt15.html

 

One of the prime culprits is third baseman Joe Crede, who was dropped to ninth in the batting order after his average fell to .232 with a .289 on-base percentage. There is reportedly even some sentiment in the organization that the team erred by refusing to include Crede in the Freddy Garcia trade with Seattle, insisting that outfielder Jeremy Reed be in the deal instead

 

http://mb9.theinsiders.com/fstanfordfansfr....topic&index=10

 

Baseball America Q & A FullertonBaseballFan Q: What should White Sox fans think of Joe Borchard at this point? He's putting up decent numbers in his third stint at Triple-A Charlotte, but with Magglio Ordonez out for an extended period of time, the Sox didn't give Borchard the call. The White Sox obviously believe in Borchard, as they opted to include Jeremy Reed rather than Borchard in the Freddy Garcia trade. Will Borchard ever get his shot playing full-time in the outfield for Chicago or is he the truly the $5.3 million dollar bust that many Sox fans are now labeling him as?

 

A: Again, don't read too much into who's included or not included in a trade. Another way to look at the Garcia deal is that perhaps the Mariners wouldn't have accepted Borchard in lieu of Reed. After initial hopes that Borchard might be their center fielder of the future, the White Sox have played him in right field this year, and Seattle obviously has Ichiro to man that position.

[greg775]

your kidding right thomas, belle and mags all have hit more homers than him, ill take it you are a new sox fan? but i agree i dont want to trade him. plus i really think the sox would have won had it not been for mags and thomas getting hurt, showiser didnt help either.

 

--Howdy.

Actually I just took a guess. I figured 40 was enough to be single

season leader.

I got punked on that guess.

I didn't know Belle whacked that many.

I hated Al Belle.

I like Paulie.

[Guest JimH]

Although JimH is usually level in his posts, I don't think this one was fair.  It was proof by stereotype:  "a lot of you", "many of you", "some of you".  Not me, not me, not me, I say to those.  If the first had happened, I would have just laughed at Bill Bavasi for making another bad move, b/c even w/o Reed (say, w/ Crede), we could top NY's offer.  As for the second, I haven't made any absolutely ludicrous trade proposals, although it's odd that we can trade Crede for something but not our "underachieving junk".  As for the third, no, I'm thinking more of Reed's minor league career.

 

Meanwhile, you are replying to OldSocks, who said the main point of your post (that switching Borchard and Reed is a pipedream) a long time ago.

 

Lots of people complained about the trade then and have disliked it ever since then.  Of course we can disagree, but don't pull this "I'm going to tell you other people what you think" crap.  I know what I think, and you don't have it right.

What on earth are you talking about? Are you drinking or something?

 

Several people commented in this thread, that's who I was addressing. If I meant to address you specifically, I would have.

 

How do you know the Sox could have topped NY's offer? You don't. All we know is NY was in it until the end, and they were going to include pitching prospects. How you determine we way over paid, I don't know.

 

As for the last part of your post, you're full of s***. I never said I was telling other people what they think, I was expressing my opinion about the statements made in this thread, an overall commentary. I'll do it again, too.

[jackie hayes]

What on earth are you talking about?  Are you drinking or something?

 

Several people commented in this thread, that's who I was addressing.  If I meant to address you specifically, I would have.

 

How do you know the Sox could have topped NY's offer?  You don't.  All we know is NY was in it until the end, and they were going to include pitching prospects.  How you determine we way over paid, I don't know.

 

As for the last part of your post, you're full of s***.  I never said I was telling other people what they think, I was expressing my opinion about the statements made in this thread, an overall commentary.  I'll do it again, too.

Not a drop. But it sounds more like you're addressing everyone who thought the trade was a bad idea -- after all, in the thread itself, not one person claimed that we could have traded Borchard instead of Reed before your post -- which does include me, and I get ticked when I'm called "so damn incredibly knee-jerk reactionary".

 

We overpaid because we could have traded Crede instead. It would not have been difficult to replace (actually, improve) on his production this year, so the question is, who was the better prospect at the time. I find it very difficult to believe that it was Crede. Not just in terms of pure potential, but also in terms of the type of player the Sox would need in the future.

[greg775]

Jim is da man.

I like Jim's posts.

[YASNY]

Jim nailed it right on the head. Especially the reference to "knee-jerk reactionaries". Most people were stunned that Olivo went in deal, but he's been hitting at a Davis-like clip, so the focus turns to Reed with two good weeks under his belt. Twenty-one games ago, there were a lot of people singing the praises of this trade because Davis started out so well for the Sox. Now that he has gone back to being Ben Davis, and Garcia has struggled some, though he pittch a couple of his poorer starts with that muscle injury, the trade is now being ripped.

 

I, for one, still like this trade and go on record here saying so.

[Rowand44]

We overpaid because we could have traded Crede instead.  It would not have been difficult to replace (actually, improve) on his production this year, so the question is, who was the better prospect at the time.  I find it very difficult to believe that it was Crede.  Not just in terms of pure potential, but also in terms of the type of player the Sox would need in the future.

We were in the heat of a pennant race, kenny didn't want to trade two regulars, what's the problem there?? Sure crede has tanked the whole season, however a ton of people myself included thought that Joe would turn it around in the 2nd half of the season like he did last year. Like I said before if the Mariners would have taken borch instead of reed that's the only thing I regret about that trade but there is no indication that could have taken place, either way this was a very good trade.

[YASNY]

We were in the heat of a pennant race, kenny didn't want to trade two regulars, what's the problem there??  Sure crede has tanked the whole season, however a ton of people myself included thought that Joe would turn it around in the 2nd half of the season like he did last year.  Like I said before if the Mariners would have taken borch instead of reed that's the only thing I regret about that trade but there is no indication that could have taken place, either way this was a very good trade.

Good point. And if KW would have traded Olivo and Crede, then the season went south like it did, that would have all been KW's fault for doing something so incredibly stupid as trading 2 everyday players for a guy that pitches every 5th day.

[southsider2k5]

Good point.  And if KW would have traded Olivo and Crede, then the season went south like it did, that would have all been KW's fault for doing something so incredibly stupid as trading 2 everyday players for a guy that pitches every 5th day.

It comes down to what is your philosophy on winning. Let it flow, or make it happen. I would much rather see a guy sieze the bull by the horns and try to win.

[YASNY]

It comes down to what is your philosophy on winning.  Let it flow, or make it happen.  I would much rather see a guy sieze the bull by the horns and try to win.

As would I. By the way, did anybody see that tremendous catch made by Jeremy Reed last night? WOW!!!!!!!

[Rowand44]

Good point.  And if KW would have traded Olivo and Crede, then the season went south like it did, that would have all been KW's fault for doing something so incredibly stupid as trading 2 everyday players for a guy that pitches every 5th day.

No doubt yas.

[Rowand44]

It comes down to what is your philosophy on winning.  Let it flow, or make it happen.  I would much rather see a guy sieze the bull by the horns and try to win.

Ditto.

[Old Socks]

I read JimH's post about three times, and I still don't know if I was called a knee jerk reactionary. I hated that trade from the get-go, although my criticism was softened after we sisgned Garcia. Reed should have been ruled untouchable, period. I can't remember when we had such a solid outfielder prospect who could do it all. Johnny Callison??? You just don't trade guys like that. Kenny shouldn't have even listened after Seattle brought up Reed's name. Just walk away.

 

In the next three years the Sox will spend $27,000,000 on Garcia. Reed would have cost about $1MM in the next three years. Money aside, I would hate the trade anyway. Who's to say that we couldn't have gone after Garcia in the off season for the same money and still have Reed? Seattle has to be thrilled to death with the trade. Sure they wanted to trade Garcia to someone rather than get a draft choice. I would rather have Jeremy Reed than a draft choice, too.

 

We could have had a 2005 outfield of Lee, Rowand, and Reed. Not now. Not ever. Kenny gets out-negotiated again. Where does Kenny keep his panic button?

 

Next up to be traded: Anderson or Sweeney? Could be either, could be both. Every other GM in the majors will be going after them this winter.

[Rowand44]

I read JimH's post about three times, and I still don't know if I was called a knee jerk reactionary.  I hated that trade from the get-go, although my criticism was softened after we sisgned Garcia.  Reed should have been ruled untouchable, period.  I can't remember when we had such a solid outfielder prospect who could do it all.  Johnny Callison???  You just don't trade guys like that.  Kenny shouldn't have even listened after Seattle brought up Reed's name.  Just walk away.

 

In the next three years the Sox will spend $27,000,000 on Garcia.  Reed would have cost about $1MM in the next three years.  Money aside, I would hate the trade anyway.  Who's to say that we couldn't have gone after Garcia in the off season for the same money and still have Reed?  Seattle has to be thrilled to death with the trade.  Sure they wanted to trade Garcia to someone rather than get a draft choice.  I would rather have Jeremy Reed than a draft choice, too.

 

We could have had a 2005 outfield of Lee, Rowand, and Reed.  Not now.  Not ever.  Kenny gets out-negotiated again.  Where does Kenny keep his panic button?

 

Next up to be traded:  Anderson or Sweeney?  Could be either, could be both.  Every other GM in the majors will be going after them this winter.

We were in the pennant race signing freddy in the offseason does absolutely nothing for us. Also you think we win a bidding war for Garcia and another pitcher?? No fricken way, we already need one starter going into next year if we didn't do this trade we'd need another one also. What has reed proved yet, sure he's off to a great start but who knows if it'll last. I like jeremy, i really do and I wish he was still a part of this organization however I'd much rather have freddy garcia.

[Rowand44]

I actaully disagree with that statement, but I am behind KW on this one. Flat out, he made a big move,to try and help this team win a division and possibly move beyond that, He was the most coveted pitcher on the market( I dont think RJ should even be talked about) and Kw went out and got him. Like Mike said, I like a GM that grabs the bull by the horns, and goes for it. Espcially for an orginzation like this. Why are we being conservitive? What the f*** have we won in last 90 years?? Thats, jack s***.

 

Go Get'em Kw.

What do you disagree about??

[Rowand44]

The part I quoted, rather having  Freddy than Jeremey. Freddy isnt an "ACE" but he is a solid number #2. Jeremey on the other hand, whould have not helped us this season, looks like he is going to be a good OBP guy who can smack the ball around. What does Oz call those again? Grinders? Isnt that what were looking for this off-season??

 

But, like I said, im still behind Oz because he made a move that was going to help us now, and it will help us in the long run because he is here for 3 more years, I just think Jeremey would have filled a huge hole we now have.

Oh ok, I misinterpreted what you said.

[T R U]

After seeing Reed play in the majors so far I would much Rather have him than Garcia

 

Why cant you be good Borchard??? WHY DAMN YOU!!! WHY CANT YOU JUST HIT .250!!!! WHY MUST YOU SUCK?????