FYI: Jeremy Reed

[qwerty]

After seeing Reed play in the majors so far I would much Rather have him than Garcia 

 

Why cant you be good Borchard??? WHY DAMN YOU!!! WHY CANT YOU JUST HIT .250!!!! WHY MUST YOU SUCK?????

2-4 tonight.

[T R U]

2-4 tonight. 

yeah hes hittin like .385 so far since being called up.. but theres nothin we can do about it now

[fathom]

How about the fact that if we didnt make the Garcia deal, we would still have Reed and Olivo on our roster, and a lot more money to spend on an "ace". We would have been able to fill more of our holes without the deal, but there's no going back on it now.

[T R U]

How about the fact that if we didnt make the Garcia deal, we would still have Reed and Olivo on our roster, and a lot more money to spend on an "ace".  We would have been able to fill more of our holes without the deal, but there's no going back on it now.

exactly.. but Reed is everything we want to add to this team next year tho... thats just what bothers me.. but we had to do what we had to do.. I just wish we coulda found another way to get it done

[santo=dorf]

How about the fact that if we didnt make the Garcia deal, we would still have Reed and Olivo on our roster, and a lot more money to spend on an "ace".  We would have been able to fill more of our holes without the deal, but there's no going back on it now.

....and then we would have to hear from June to September how KW killed our season by not going out and getting a pitcher when we needed one. :rolly

 

We would also have to compete against the BloSox and Yanks for someone like Garcia, and we would lose due to $. We were able to get Freddy Garcia because we were able to offer the most.

 

Move on people....

[southsideirish]

Like i said in another thread. In 42 less games reed has half the amount of hits (13) that borchard has (26). But oh ya i forgot reed is yet to hit a 504 foot homerun.

Who cares. He has played in 11 games. Whoop Dee f***in Doo! I mean, yeah good luck to a Seattle Mariner. Wonderful!!!

 

Lets see what he does for a whole season. Come on, 39 f***ing at bats? Who really gives a rats ass. This is way too early to say he is better than anyone the Sox supposedly could have given up.

 

Plus I don't believe it was Joe Crede INSTEAD of Reed. I believe it Was Olivo, Reed, AND Crede. So you would want to make what you call a bad deal an even worse deal? Rifukcindiculous.

 

We are all fans here and we will never really know what this trade was being talked about. However, I never once heard that Crede or Borchard could have been suplemented for Jeremy Reed. I have only heard where Crede would have been ADDED in the deal.

[southsideirish]

exactly.. but Reed is everything we want to add to this team next year tho... thats just what bothers me.. but we had to do what we had to do.. I just wish we coulda found another way to get it done

So lets say we kept Reed and didn't get Garcia or Davis. Are we better off? Instead of getting a quality starter, which we desperately needed, we would have more added depth to a position that we have the most quality depth at in the minors. What is the sense of that? Aren't you supposed to trade from your strengths in order to make your weak areas stronger? You think that Brian Anderson or Ryan Sweeny can't develop into at least the player Jeremy Reed is? Come on now.

[Rex Hudler]

I am pretty sure they asked for Olivo and Crede, but KW didn't want to give up two starters. So KW offered Reed and then Seattle wanted a third player. KW said he would give them the 3rd player if they could have a window to negotiate an extension with Garcia.

 

Whether Seattle refused or KW just changed his mind, I am not sure, but he went ahead and included Morse because he felt confident that he could get Garcia locked up, which he did.

 

You can choose to believe me or not, but I am pretty positive this is how things went down. I am sure they discussed other scenarios too, but this is how it was widely reported at the time. I am not going to take the time to look it all up, so it is your choice to believe me or not.

[Rex Hudler]

So lets say we kept Reed and didn't get Garcia or Davis. Are we better off? Instead of getting a quality starter, which we desperately needed, we would have more added depth to a position that we have the most quality depth at in the minors. What is the sense of that? Aren't you supposed to trade from your strengths in order to make your weak areas stronger? You think that Brian Anderson or Ryan Sweeny can't develop into at least the player Jeremy Reed is? Come on now.

I know there is a possibility I could get hit by a bus tomorrow too, but what if Garcia goes 9-14 next year with a 4.87 ERA?? Would you be changing your tune then?

 

I don't know the odds of that scenario but I am confident the odds are better than me getting hit by a bus.

[southsideirish]

I am pretty sure they asked for Olivo and Crede, but KW didn't want to give up two starters.  So KW offered Reed and then Seattle wanted a third player.  KW said he would give them the 3rd player if they could have a window to negotiate an extension with Garcia.

 

Whether Seattle refused or KW just changed his mind, I am not sure, but he went ahead and included Morse because he felt confident that he could get Garcia locked up, which he did.

 

You can choose to believe me or not, but I am pretty positive this is how things went down.  I am sure they discussed other scenarios too, but this is how it was widely reported at the time.  I am not going to take the time to look it all up, so it is your choice to believe me or not.

If what you say is true, which I have no reason not to believe as you are a very credible and knowledgable source, then I still side with Kenny with this one. If you are going to make a push for the playoffs, which we were, then you can't trade away two regulars like that. Too many unknowns. I believe he did the right thing.

[qwerty]

Who cares. He has played in 11 games. Whoop Dee f***in Doo! I mean, yeah good luck to a Seattle Mariner. Wonderful!!!

 

Lets see what he does for a whole season. Come on, 39 f***ing at bats? Who really gives a rats ass. This is way too early to say he is better than anyone the Sox supposedly could have given up.

 

Plus I don't believe it was Joe Crede INSTEAD of Reed. I believe it Was Olivo, Reed, AND Crede. So you would want to make what you call a bad deal an even worse deal? Rifukcindiculous.

 

We are all fans here and we will never really know what this trade was being talked about. However, I never once heard that Crede or Borchard could have been suplemented for Jeremy Reed. I have only heard where Crede would have been ADDED in the deal.

For one i am not honestly judging his 39 at-bats or whatever and saying that he is gonna be a career .390 hitter now am i? Just better than joe f***ing borchard. Also i never said anything in the second half of your post but since you brought it up the original deal was crede and olivo but kw talked them out of it and offered reed.

[southsideirish]

I know there is a possibility I could get hit by a bus tomorrow too, but what if Garcia goes 9-14 next year with a 4.87 ERA??  Would you be changing your tune then? 

 

I don't know the odds of that scenario but I am confident the odds are better than me getting hit by a bus. 

Yes I would be changing my tune. I highly doubt he will come anywhere near those numbers. In 15 starts this year he has 8 wins. With a better team, especially better defensively, I see him getting a lot more wins and his ERA going further down. I understand you can't play defense against a home run, but I think once he gets more confidence in his defense he won't try to get everyone out by himself and thus make better pitches. How we revamp our defense up the middle in the offseason will be key. We have some quality out there in Cabrera and Beltran. We have to make a run at them both.

[Rex Hudler]

If what you say is true, which I have no reason not to believe as you are a very credible and knowledgable source, then I still side with Kenny with this one. If you are going to make a push for the playoffs, which we were, then you can't trade away two regulars like that. Too many unknowns. I believe he did the right thing.

SSI, I didn't argue with him getting Garcia, I just think he gave up too much. Now perhaps he had to, but if I recall, Seattle put a deadline on the deal or they said they would move on. I think KW gave in to get the player he wanted. That's a gamble. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. He didn't win this year, but it remains to be seen how it will work out long term.

 

I just feel like he was in a tough position because he ws dealing with Seattle who you could argue knew more about the Sox farm system than he did, via Bob Fontaine. I know for a fact that Fontaine had input into that trade and he made sure that Seattle got the right players.

 

I don't blame KW for giving in and making the deal, but it is one he will have to answer to if it doesn't work out long term. Gambling on deals is part of being a GM. I just have a hunch that the Sox will lose in the long run on this one. If we would have made the playoffs this year, then the long term would have been much less important. Guess we'll see what happens in the next few years.

[southsideirish]

For one i am not honestly judging his 39 at-bats or whatever and saying that he is gonna be a career .390 hitter now am i? Just better than joe f***ing borchard. Also i never said anything in the second half of your post but since you brought it up the original deal was crede and olivo but kw talked them out of it and offered reed.

Why are you or anyone else comparing him to Joe Borchard? Is there a reason for this? Was there an option where we could have included him in this deal instead of Reed?

[Chisoxfn]

For one i am not honestly judging his 39 at-bats or whatever and saying that he is gonna be a career .390 hitter now am i? Just better than joe f***ing borchard. Also i never said anything in the second half of your post but since you brought it up the original deal was crede and olivo but kw talked them out of it and offered reed.

Ya, I remember the quote pretty well. Kenny said something like "we are in a playoff race and we can't afford to give up two regular players, two starters. Two guys we believe in". He then talked about how Seattle wanted to give them Crede and Olivo and that KW was going to do it, but he wanted to negotiate. Then the 3rd player name came in...Morse and KW still was holding off a bit, saying he needed that window (this deal sounded like it was done at this point or pretty close to it) and then Seattle said hey, how bout you give us Reed and keep Crede and make the deal now.

 

Sox felt confident, pulled the trigger and the rest is history. Now I am not 100% that if Crede was involved that Morse would of went, but the main piece was it was either Crede or Reed.

 

In hindsight, I'd rather have Reed at this point, but who the hell would of known that and Crede can still prove many of us wrong. However, I still like the deal and think Freddy has what it takes to be a front line pitcher in Chicago, although their is definately reason to be at least semi concerned, considering his ERA on the southside.

 

I feel sorry for Borchard. Such a quality individual, but man has he been awful. I knew he was going to be overmatched, but never did I think it would be this bad.

[Rex Hudler]

Yes I would be changing my tune. I highly doubt he will come anywhere near those numbers. In 15 starts this year he has 8 wins. With a better team, especially better defensively, I see him getting a lot more wins and his ERA going further down. I understand you can't play defense against a home run, but I think once he gets more confidence in his defense he won't try to get everyone out by himself and thus make better pitches. How we revamp our defense up the middle in the offseason will be key. We have some quality out there in Cabrera and Beltran. We have to make a run at them both.

I don't see there being the budget for either of those players..... see different thread about next year running at the moment. If they start to make trades and do a complete overhaul then anythying is possible. I'll believe that when I see it.

[southsideirish]

SSI, I didn't argue with him getting Garcia, I just think he gave up too much.  Now perhaps he had to, but if I recall, Seattle put a deadline on the deal or they said they would move on.  I think KW gave in to get the player he wanted.  That's a gamble.  Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.  He didn't win this year, but it remains to be seen how it will work out long term. 

 

I just feel like he was in a tough position because he ws dealing with Seattle who you could argue knew more about the Sox farm system than he did, via Bob Fontaine.  I know for a fact that Fontaine had input into that trade and he made sure that Seattle got the right players. 

 

I don't blame KW for giving in and making the deal, but it is one he will have to answer to if it doesn't work out long term.  Gambling on deals is part of being a GM.  I just have a hunch that the Sox will lose in the long run on this one.  If we would have made the playoffs this year, then the long term would have been much less important.  Guess we'll see what happens in the next few years.

I agree with just about everything you said, except for the part of giving up too much. I don't believe we did. Only time will tell, like you said.

[qwerty]

Yes I would be changing my tune. I highly doubt he will come anywhere near those numbers. In 15 starts this year he has 8 wins. With a better team, especially better defensively, I see him getting a lot more wins and his ERA going further down. I understand you can't play defense against a home run, but I think once he gets more confidence in his defense he won't try to get everyone out by himself and thus make better pitches. How we revamp our defense up the middle in the offseason will be key. We have some quality out there in Cabrera and Beltran. We have to make a run at them both.

Yes he does have 8 wins in 15 starts but in those 15 starts he has an era of 4.78 that is 4th to 5th starter territory. So i would not be too sure that he will not have an era of 4.87 next year. A flyball pitcher in a our stadium does not go well. Also why get cabrera when we basically have the same exact player in uribe for about 4 million a year cheaper?

[DBAHO]

Long - term, if Crede and Reed post the same stats, you would take Crede no doubt. It is a lot easier to find an everyday outfielder than an everyday third baseman. This offseason, the Sox should shop Crede around to see what type of return he can bring in a trade. If we can get something good, you trade him, and sign Koskie for a 2 year deal until Josh Fields is ready. Otherwise, you hang onto Crede and hope he can live up to his potential for another season, while you fill other needs.

[Chisoxfn]

SSI, I didn't argue with him getting Garcia, I just think he gave up too much.  Now perhaps he had to, but if I recall, Seattle put a deadline on the deal or they said they would move on.  I think KW gave in to get the player he wanted.  That's a gamble.  Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.  He didn't win this year, but it remains to be seen how it will work out long term. 

 

I just feel like he was in a tough position because he ws dealing with Seattle who you could argue knew more about the Sox farm system than he did, via Bob Fontaine.  I know for a fact that Fontaine had input into that trade and he made sure that Seattle got the right players. 

 

I don't blame KW for giving in and making the deal, but it is one he will have to answer to if it doesn't work out long term.  Gambling on deals is part of being a GM.  I just have a hunch that the Sox will lose in the long run on this one.  If we would have made the playoffs this year, then the long term would have been much less important.  Guess we'll see what happens in the next few years.

Ya, Seattle wanted the deal done and I think ownership told Bavasi get it done or move on. The Yanks had a strong offer on the table and Bavasi was playing both sides.

 

Following the agreement between Kenny and Bavasi, Billy called up Cashman told him what he was getting and wanted to see if he could play the Yanks into giving up a little more but the Yanks said they didn't couldn't give up more (realistically I think it was more along the lines that they didn't have anyone else that would interest the Mariners).

 

In fact, I think Kenny kind of swooped in and stole the deal off the Yanks plate cause many in the Yanks organization would tell you and were quoted as saying they figured he was going to be in New York in the next 24 to 48 hours. I think that situation helped tip Kenny's hand.

 

But hwne I see what Kris Benson got Pitt and Victor Zambrono got Tampa I think back and go the Sox did pretty decent. Heck, the Dodgers paid a hefty price to get Penny who is obviously better then Garcia, but how much better????

[Rex Hudler]

Why are you or anyone else comparing him to Joe Borchard? Is there a reason for this? Was there an option where we could have included him in this deal instead of Reed?

I have seen nothing more than speculation that Borchard could have been included in the Garcia deal. I think the speculation came from KW telling Borchard personally that he wasn't going anywhere and would not be traded. He told Borch that a few weeks before the Garcia deal.

 

So based on the concept that Borchard was "untouchable" some infer that Seattle wanted him. I don't think there is any documented basis for that.

[southsideirish]

I don't see there being the budget for either of those players..... see different thread about next year running at the moment.  If they start to make trades and do a complete overhaul then anythying is possible.  I'll believe that when I see it.

Maybe not, but we have to get at least one of them I think and then get someone else of high quality defensively at the other position. We can't have the type of pitching staff we currently have and have the type of defensive players we currently have. It just hasn't worked out well and it won't work out well.

[Chisoxfn]

Yes he does have 8 wins in 15 starts but in those 15 starts he has an era of 4.78 that is 4th to 5th starter territory. So i would not be too sure that he will not have an era of 4.87 next year. A flyball pitcher in a our stadium does not go well. Also why get cabrera when we basically have the same exact player in uribe for about 4 million a year cheaper?

Out of curiosity, what would his ERA be minus the few starts he had while pitching pretty banged up. Heck, I still think he's pitching hurt because his velocity is way down compared to his first few starts with the team.

[Rex Hudler]

Long - term, if Crede and Reed post the same stats, you would take Crede no doubt. It is a lot easier to find an everyday outfielder than an everyday third baseman. This offseason, the Sox should shop Crede around to see what type of return he can bring in a trade. If we can get something good, you trade him, and sign Koskie for a 2 year deal until Josh Fields is ready. Otherwise, you hang onto Crede and hope he can live up to his potential for another season, while you fill other needs.

Crede won't bring anything by himself at this point. The only way he goes is if it is in a bigger deal. Book it.

[qwerty]

Why are you or anyone else comparing him to Joe Borchard? Is there a reason for this? Was there an option where we could have included him in this deal instead of Reed?

All that i know is i always have heard borchard is suppose to be the next big thing. But how the f*** can you be the next big thing when you can hardly handle the minors and striking out at a ridiculous pace. I just hate borchard and compare reed to him because their was no reason why the sox valued borchard over reed whatsoever. I know borchard was never involved in the trade but god i wish he would have been.