Chisoxfn Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Jason, Jason Jason........ what the hell am I going to do with you kids??? Nuke LaLoosh is the pitcher in Bull Durham, played by Tim Robbins. Work with me here!!!!!! LOL, thats where I knew the name from. I've seen the movie, but only once. Everyone tells me I need to see it again. Its been so long since I've seen it. If it helps I've seen Eight Men Out like 20 times Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 In a good offense and a good team Cabrera is an outstanding #2 hitter. He was the runner up the last two years to Renteria as the SS gold glove. I believe he won it in 2001, I could be wrong. He is not the same player as Jose Valentin. In fact it is not even a fair comparison. His career obp is .316. A two hole hitter needs to be in the .350's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 He has a worse career obp. Valentin has better range ffactor and zone rating by alot. What kind of offense has Jose been playing for compared to Cabrera's? How old are Cabrera and Valentin? I am not a big fan of the range factor, however others here can tell you if it is a legit stat or not. I can't say how legit or how good of a stat it is. All I know is I would rather watch each player play defense. From what I have seen Cabrera is far superior to Jose, especially at this point in their careers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 His career obp is .316. A two hole hitter needs to be in the .350's. When he was surrounded by Guerrero and Vidro his OBP was .347. Pretty close no? He also had 17 HRs, 80 RBI, and 24 SBs. Pretty good #2 no? He would be surrounded with a similar cast here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 What kind of offense has Jose been playing for compared to Cabrera's? How old are Cabrera and Valentin? I am not a big fan of the range factor, however others here can tell you if it is a legit stat or not. I can't say how legit or how good of a stat it is. All I know is I would rather watch each player play defense. From what I have seen Cabrera is far superior to Jose, especially at this point in their careers. Put it this way range factor is legit since it is how many outs you record in a nine innings game. It may just be a step or two either way but valentin is better than him at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 When he was surrounded by Guerrero and Vidro his OBP was .347. Pretty close no? He also had 17 HRs, 80 RBI, and 24 SBs. Pretty good #2 no? He would be surrounded with a similar cast here. He was surrounded by them for years and he had one good year. Thrill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 LOL, thats where I knew the name from. I've seen the movie, but only once. Everyone tells me I need to see it again. Its been so long since I've seen it. If it helps I've seen Eight Men Out like 20 times Your pennance (sp?) is to watch Bull Durham 3-5 times over the next month. If you can't give me at least 6 great quotes from the movie by Oct. 15, then you need to give up on the baseball business. Bull Durham is one of the most quotable movies and a MUST for any baseball fan, especially one with any interest in the minor leagues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 He was surrounded by them for years and he had one good year. Thrill. really? How many years were Vidro and Gurrero surrunding him? Cabrera did not always bat at the top. Hmmm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Put it this way range factor is legit since it is how many outs you record in a nine innings game. It may just be a step or two either way but valentin is better than him at that. Really? That makes it legit? So if a player had 20 ground balls hit right to him in a game and recorded 20 outs he would have a great range factor? Nah, I don't buy into it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 really? How many years were Vidro and Gurrero surrunding him? Cabrera did not always bat at the top. Hmmm. They were all their together from 1997 to 2003 almost always within the top 4-5 in the batting order. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 They were all their together from 1997 to 2003 almost always within the top 4-5 in the batting order. No he wasn't almost always within the top 4. That is false. He was at the bottom quite a bit or hitting 6th down. If he was hitting 5th is he now surrounded by Vlad and Vidro? I think not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Really? That makes it legit? So if a player had 20 ground balls hit right to him in a game and recorded 20 outs he would have a great range factor? Nah, I don't buy into it at all. I don't understand the ins and outs of range factor and zone rating either. I know that the new "moneyball" has Billy Beane, Theo Epstein and others trying to find a way to quantify and measure a player's defensive ability. The old school baseball guy in me still sees way too many variables to really tell how good a player is defensively. In all honesty, seeing a game a week isn't enough either. To really see the effect a player can have you have to see them day in, day out. It is impossible to see every player in the Majors every day, which is why they are trying to find ways to compare players defensively. I am just not sure how it can be done when things such as positioning and something as simple as how often a pitcher hits his spots can affect how many balls a defender can get to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Really? That makes it legit? So if a player had 20 ground balls hit right to him in a game and recorded 20 outs he would have a great range factor? Nah, I don't buy into it at all. So are you saying that it is mere chance that carl crawford blows every other left fielder away in range factor? Do you think that all the balls hit to him are right at him? Because i think he uses his get instincts and really good speed to get to most balls that others won't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 So are you saying that it is mere chance that carl crawford blows every other left fielder away in range factor? Do you think that all the balls hit to him are right at him? Because i think he uses his get instincts and really good speed to get to most balls that others won't. How do you differentiate between outfielders who play behind pitchers that are predominantly fly ball pitchers? If a guy plays CF behind a staff that has three ground ball pitcher's does that mean he is not as good of a CF because he has less chances? There are a million possible scenarios like that. Pardon me for not being up on the details of zone rating and range factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 So are you saying that it is mere chance that carl crawford blows every other left fielder away in range factor? Do you think that all the balls hit to him are right at him? Because i think he uses his get instincts and really good speed to get to most balls that others won't. Are you stating that Carl Crawford to all other LFs is the same comparison as Cabrera and Jose Valentin? I think there is a big difference in comparing LFs and SSs. Maybe for some positions it works and others it doesn't. If it give Ryne Sandberg a high range factor then I know for sure that thing is a piece of s***. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 I don't understand the ins and outs of range factor and zone rating either. I know that the new "moneyball" has Billy Beane, Theo Epstein and others trying to find a way to quantify and measure a player's defensive ability. The old school baseball guy in me still sees way too many variables to really tell how good a player is defensively. In all honesty, seeing a game a week isn't enough either. To really see the effect a player can have you have to see them day in, day out. It is impossible to see every player in the Majors every day, which is why they are trying to find ways to compare players defensively. I am just not sure how it can be done when things such as positioning and something as simple as how often a pitcher hits his spots can affect how many balls a defender can get to. Great points. I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Are you stating that Carl Crawford to all other LFs is the same comparison as Cabrera and Jose Valentin? I think there is a big difference in comparing LFs and SSs. Maybe for some positions it works and others it doesn't. If it give Ryne Sandberg a high range factor then I know for sure that thing is a piece of s***. Valentin gets to alot of balls almost directly in front of second base or behind second base that alot of other shortstops don't. It may not make sense to you but trust me it makes sense for every position besides 1st pitcher and catcher. EDIT: I am sorry for saying it is a legit stat but it can be helpful for certain positions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Just tossing in a random pic, having nothing at all to do with the current topic....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Playing both sides of the fence...... I do recall reading that Valentin rated high in the newest such research on how to rate defensive players. I don't see him play everyday, so I can't make a personal judgement. It's just too damned bad the guy can be so bad at the plate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Just tossing in a random pic, having nothing at all to do with the current topic....... HOLY s***!!!!! When is the Pitt/Miami game being played? Have they announced that yet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Playing both sides of the fence...... I do recall reading that Valentin rated high in the newest such research on how to rate defensive players. I don't see him play everyday, so I can't make a personal judgement. It's just too damned bad the guy can be so bad at the plate. It is also to bad that he goes into stone hands syndrom for periods of time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 HOLY s***!!!!! When is the Pitt/Miami game being played? Have they announced that yet? moved to 8:30 eastern time as of now........... DRays and BJays canceled for tomorrow. Having gone through a hurricane last week, I have a new found respect for those things. And I am 4 hours inland! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 Valentin gets to alot of balls almost directly in front of second base or behind second base that alot of other shortstops don't. It may not make sense to you but trust me it makes sense for every position besides 1st pitcher and catcher. EDIT: I am sorry for saying it is a legit stat but it can be helpful for certain positions. I'm sorry I just don't see him making the same outstanding plays you see him making. For every great play he makes he makes a big bonehead play with either an awful throw or a lapse in concentration handling an easy grounder. He is annoying to watch both offensively and defensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsideirish Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 moved to 8:30 eastern time as of now........... DRays and BJays canceled for tomorrow. thanks for the update. The Hurricane should be gone by then? I can't imagine them getting to big of a crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 26, 2004 Share Posted September 26, 2004 I'm sorry I just don't see him making the same outstanding plays you see him making. For every great play he makes he makes a big bonehead play with either an awful throw or a lapse in concentration handling an easy grounder. He is annoying to watch both offensively and defensively. While i agree he is annoying to watch play period he must be doing something right defensively that he is rated that high in two different categories. Doesn't seem like he is doing anything extremely special but i guess he is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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