israel4ever Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 I hate to be Mr. Gloom, but I'm ready to get excited about all the possible things JR could do and be dissapointed by how few of them actually happen. The Sox will throw out big names and claim to be 'interested' in them, just to stir up fan interest, sell tix and then go out and get 'B List' guys. Sad, but true! :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 just for clarification are guys like sabo, daubach, magrane, billy joe robideaux B-list guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 So you really think a team that starts Gload, Burke, and Valdez would be able to compete for a division title? It''s not a shot at those players, it's called being a realist. You could have the best pitching staff in the world, but if your hitting sucks, you aren't going to win consistently. Just look at the Dodgers last year. see: Oakland OUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Also, I love the effort that J. Burke has brought to the Sox, but I'm a little worried that his expectations are going to be a little high. Burke has been swinging Lew Ford's magic wand for a long time this season, where it seems everything he hits goes through a hole in the infield, etc. Now, I know this is cause he has a nice opposite field swing, but considering he doesn't hit for a lot of power or walk much, Burke could easily fall back to a .250 hitter or so. I have no problem w/Burke as a back-up catcher, but I don't think he's ready to be a 4-5 game a wk starter at the MLB level. did you have a problem with Olivo starting?? with his carerr 234 avg, and thats not just because of his early years, this year he is 232. And I never heard anyone complaining about that. So if Burke is a 250 hitter or better, wouldnt you say thats an improvement as far as who is behind the plate??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 did you have a problem with Olivo starting?? with his carerr 234 avg, and thats not just because of his early years, this year he is 232. And I never heard anyone complaining about that. So if Burke is a 250 hitter or better, wouldnt you say thats an improvement as far as who is behind the plate??? Not when you compare the way they play behind the plate. Olivos D vs Burkes D is worth a bunch of batting average points IMO. Plus Burke is as good as he is ever going to get, Olivo is going to be an elite catcher. If I had the choice, there is no doubt I would jump all over Miguel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Not when you compare the way they play behind the plate. Olivos D vs Burkes D is worth a bunch of batting average points IMO. Plus Burke is as good as he is ever going to get, Olivo is going to be an elite catcher. If I had the choice, there is no doubt I would jump all over Miguel. Apparently the sox did not think to highly of how he handled pitchers and his defense. Also he has this slight problem. He cannot hit right handers at all and that is what you face more than 80% of the time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Apparently the sox did not think to highly of how he handled pitchers and his defense. Also he has this slight problem. He cannot hit right handers at all and that is what you face more than 80% of the time. Defense hasn't been questioned, handling pitchers has. Those are two different things. And he had to be worth something because Seattle insisted he be in the deal. They thought enough of him to deal their #1 pitcher for him and another couple of prospects. You might be viewing the guy through some bias. Just by reading your posts about him and other players it gets kind of obvious that you let personal hate of players interfere with your opinions of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Defense hasn't been questioned, handling pitchers has. Those are two different things. And he had to be worth something because Seattle insisted he be in the deal. They thought enough of him to deal their #1 pitcher for him and another couple of prospects. You might be viewing the guy through some bias. Just by reading your posts about him and other players it gets kind of obvious that you let personal hate of players interfere with your opinions of them. I did not hate him at all. I just know unless if can start to hit right handers decent he will be nothing more than a backup for the majority of his career. I mean he hits a mere .200 against righter handers.that will nto do. He may have a cannon for an arm but if he cannot throw anyone out it doesn't matter. It's not like teams are scared to run on him. In his time here i would say he was medicore nothing more. Also the only players i do not like are cruddy and borchard for obvious reasons and garland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 27, 2004 Share Posted September 27, 2004 Not when you compare the way they play behind the plate. Olivos D vs Burkes D is worth a bunch of batting average points IMO. Plus Burke is as good as he is ever going to get, Olivo is going to be an elite catcher. If I had the choice, there is no doubt I would jump all over Miguel. What proves that he is going to be an elite catcher, are you that scary of a judge of talent????? Seems to me his numbers pretty much look the same as they have Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 What proves that he is going to be an elite catcher, are you that scary of a judge of talent????? Seems to me his numbers pretty much look the same as they have Now that is funny. You want to throw out Grilli's numbers when judging what kind of future he will have, but use them to condem a much younger Miguel Olivo, who plays a position where most of his value doesn't show up in the stat page, LET ALONE in his batting average. :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Now that is funny. You want to throw out Grilli's numbers when judging what kind of future he will have, but use them to condem a much younger Miguel Olivo, who plays a position where most of his value doesn't show up in the stat page, LET ALONE in his batting average. :rolly Grilli-12 games of major league experience Olivo 212 games of major league experience Never said he wasnt going to be good, just does look like someone who will be elite, especially when one of the knocks on him is how he handles pitchers, which is one of the stats that doesnt show up in offensive categories it was a good try though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Grilli-12 games of major league experience Olivo 212 games of major league experience Never said he wasnt going to be good, just does look like someone who will be elite, especially when one of the knocks on him is how he handles pitchers, which is one of the stats that doesnt show up in offensive categories it was a good try though And Grilli more than makes up for it with his 8 years of mediocre at best minor league stats. I just find it interesting that you will twist the exact same arguement the opposite way when it suits your needs. Be cute and condesending all you want, but manipulating arguements is bush league. OUT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 And Grilli more than makes up for it with his 8 years of mediocre at best minor league stats. I just find it interesting that you will twist the exact same arguement the opposite way when it suits your needs. Be cute and condesending all you want, but manipulating arguements is bush league. OUT oooo angry admin, although im not sure what condesending is.(sp?) You can read all of my posts, pretty consistent if you ask me. I never said Olivo was bad, but in three seasons, he doesnt seem to be elite. I could be wrong, as I hope he does become elite considering how much I like him. But when you say elite, I think of Pudge Rodriguez, and his first three years show continuing improvement, while Miguel's seem to be sort of sitting in neutral. This could be due to his change in team, or any other factors. But to me he seems destined to be a good maybe great catcher. But elite, I think the jury is out on that. As far as Grilli, I havent seen enough of him yet. And I dont think he was all that bad in the minors. I believe in his debut year (1998) before any hint of injury, he had an ERA of around 3.8 and a low number of walks I believe. He couldnt have been that bad. In 2002 i think he was around the same level with about a 3.5 and I think he had a winning record 13-11. 71 walks and 160 k's. I may be wrong, but I didnt think that was all that terrible. But I do think that the Marlins got ripped off when they traded Livan and nate bump for him. And dont take it so personal, it was just my opinion..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 In 2002 i think he was around the same level with about a 3.5 and I think he had a winning record 13-11. 71 walks and 160 k's. I may be wrong, but I didnt think that was all that terrible. In 2002 he pitched 5.2/3 innings and had an era of 1.59. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fathom Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Yes, Olivo sucks against righties, but rakes lefties. Considering the high amount of lefty starters in the AL central, Olivo would not be a liability if he was still on the Sox. I always thought a great idea would have been to get a lefty hitting catcher who could play against tough righty pitchers. The Sox have a very interesting choice to make at catcher now. Is Ben Davis really the answer for full-time starter? I hope Sox mgmt wasnt fooled by one hot stretch to think he's a solid MLB level hitter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Ben Davis has a lot to prove. In fact, I am doubtful he'll really get a shot at doing so. His catcher's ERA is pretty high, iirc. I think the Sox will look to upgrade the position this offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Ben Davis has a lot to prove. In fact, I am doubtful he'll really get a shot at doing so. His catcher's ERA is pretty high, iirc. I think the Sox will look to upgrade the position this offseason. I've been less than impressed with his defense behind the plate too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Ben Davis has a lot to prove. In fact, I am doubtful he'll really get a shot at doing so. His catcher's ERA is pretty high, iirc. I think the Sox will look to upgrade the position this offseason. Trading for pierzynski may just be the best option. Because no one in free agency will really be an up grade except varitek. We all know varitek will not be coming here anytime soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Trading for pierzynski may just be the best option. Because no one in free agency will really be an up grade except varitek. We all know varitek will not be coming here anytime soon. Do we? Why is that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Do we? Why is that? 5-6 million a year he will be demanding and scott boras is his agent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 scott boras is his agent. Ok. That says it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Pyrz would be an awesome upgrade. Heck, would anyone be intrigued with a Pyrz and Jerome Williams for Paul Konerko deal? Williams gives the Sox a solid young starter with room to grow (allowing them to package Garland elsewhere) while Pyrz gives them a good catcher. Maybe they could get more (they being the Sox), I don't know...but I wouldn't midn this idea. You then have Gload as your starting 1b and save a bit in payroll (don't know how much Aj makes). One major flaw in AJ is that he doens't have a great OBP, but he can play vs righties and you can have Burke play on ocassions against lefties. .285 avg and a .340 OBP against rhp this season (AJ). Burke had a Jerome Williams (22) was 9-7 with a 4.41 ERA this year. Gave up 119 hits in 122.1 innings while striking out 77. In his only other season he was 7-5 with a 3.3 ERA in 131 innings. Their would be a risk in this deal, but Williams has a s***load of potential and could be an awesome pickup, imo. He had arm surgery a month ago and is capable of pitching at this point but Alou held him out in the Dodgers series and went with a rookie instead because he didn't want to risk rushing him. The more I think about this, I think SF would be happy with Konerko and the two players the Sox get would definately fit into their plans. Seems like a fair deal, in fact I could easily see giving the nod up to the Giants, but I have a little bit of a Sox bias and may be over-rating Konerko and under-rating the fact that Williams is 22. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Pyrz would be an awesome upgrade. Heck, would anyone be intrigued with a Pyrz and Jerome Williams for Paul Konerko deal? Williams gives the Sox a solid young starter with room to grow (allowing them to package Garland elsewhere) while Pyrz gives them a good catcher. Maybe they could get more (they being the Sox), I don't know...but I wouldn't midn this idea. You then have Gload as your starting 1b and save a bit in payroll (don't know how much Aj makes). One major flaw in AJ is that he doens't have a great OBP, but he can play vs righties and you can have Burke play on ocassions against lefties. .285 avg and a .340 OBP against rhp this season (AJ). Burke had a Jerome Williams (22) was 9-7 with a 4.41 ERA this year. Gave up 119 hits in 122.1 innings while striking out 77. In his only other season he was 7-5 with a 3.3 ERA in 131 innings. Their would be a risk in this deal, but Williams has a s***load of potential and could be an awesome pickup, imo. He had arm surgery a month ago and is capable of pitching at this point but Alou held him out in the Dodgers series and went with a rookie instead because he didn't want to risk rushing him. The more I think about this, I think SF would be happy with Konerko and the two players the Sox get would definately fit into their plans. Seems like a fair deal, in fact I could easily see giving the nod up to the Giants, but I have a little bit of a Sox bias and may be over-rating Konerko and under-rating the fact that Williams is 22. I think there is a very slim chance since he is only 22 and all. Williams that is. Another downside to pierzynski is his knack for grounding into double plays. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I wonder if we could pry anymore from the Giants by adding Davis to the deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I wonder if we could pry anymore from the Giants by adding Davis to the deal. We would have to resign him first. Which if we resign him we will be keeping him most likely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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