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Gammons -God I hope he's wrong!


Al Lopez Ghost (old)

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By the way, if anyone read the article over on WSI...it has no reference about the White Sox.  The poster is claming Gammons was on the radio out there and said JR contacted MLB to do this. 

 

Ya sure, and I'll believe it when me s*** turns into rainbow sherbert.

:puke

 

 

Gross jason..

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You can't compare the Tigers to the Yankees, anymore than you can compare the Devil Rays to the Twins.

 

 

The Yankees will have big crowds here, as will the Red Sox.  The Devil Rays, Blue Jays, and Orioles will not. 

 

And you are dead on right, the casual fan is the one we will be fighting for.  But the casual fans aren't going to be going to see the Sox and Yankees, because those games sell out.  Getting the casual fan to go see the Sox play the Devil Rays is the problem.  And if the Rays stink AND the Sox stink no one is going to go. But if the Sox are playing the Devil Rays while battling Twins for first place, people are much more likely to go, because they will pay to see a winner.

 

Like I said if you don't believe my arguement, go back and look at the Sox attendance trends.  Take a look closely at the Sox record, and how many fans show up to games.  There is a direct correlation.

I agree. In our division the only reason to go to a game is if the Sox are winning. If they are losing stay home because Central Division baseball only offers mediocre talent and non competitive teams. It is the weakest division. Sox fans would rather watch the Sox beat up on a talentless Tigers team than watch the best teams in baseball.

 

I believe seasons like 86, 87, 88, 89, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2002, 2003, and 2004 would be helped by better teams to see.

 

2003    Chicago White Sox American League 86 76 .531 4.0    1,939,594

2002      Chicago White Sox  American League  81  81  .500  13.5  1,676,911

2001      Chicago White Sox  American League  83  79  .512  8.0  1,766,172

2000      Chicago White Sox  American League  95  67  .586  -  1,947,799

1999      Chicago White Sox  American League  75  86  .466  21.5  1,339,121

1998      Chicago White Sox  American League  80  82  .494  9.0  1,391,146

1997      Chicago White Sox  American League  80  81  .497  6.0  1,864,782

1996      Chicago White Sox  American League  85  77  .525  14.5  1,676,403

1995      Chicago White Sox  American League  68  76  .472  32.0  1,609,773

1994      Chicago White Sox  American League  67  46  .593  -  1,697,398

1993      Chicago White Sox  American League  94  68  .580  -  2,581,091

1992      Chicago White Sox  American League  86  76  .531  10.0  2,681,156

1991      Chicago White Sox  American League  87  75  .537  8.0  2,934,154

1990      Chicago White Sox  American League  94  68  .580  9.0  2,002,357

1989      Chicago White Sox  American League  69  92  .429  29.5  1,045,651

1988      Chicago White Sox  American League  71  90  .441  32.5  1,115,749

1987      Chicago White Sox  American League  77  85  .475  8.0  1,208,060

1986      Chicago White Sox  American League  72  90  .444  20.0  1,424,313

1985      Chicago White Sox  American League  85  77  .525  6.0  1,669,888

1984      Chicago White Sox  American League  74  88  .457  10.0  2,136,988

1983      Chicago White Sox  American League  99  63  .611  -  2,132,821

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i don't recall players complaining about travel when we were in the same division as california, oakland and seattle...

AT that time there were only two divisions and it was prefered to the east. The division was very geographic with only Milwaukee being west of the Sox and in the East Division.

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if charlotte was such a good market why didn't they move the expos there? mlb has dragged their feet for years trying to find somewhere OTHER than DC to put a team..

I can't answer that.

 

But the Sox already have a minor league affiliate in Hickory, NC. Also, the NFL and NHL franchises in NC do pretty well, and the NBA is coming back to Charlotte.

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I agree. In our division the only reason to go to a game is if the Sox are winning. If they are losing stay home because Central Division baseball only offers mediocre talent and non competitive teams. It is the weakest division. Sox fans would rather watch the Sox beat up on a talentless Tigers team than watch the best teams in baseball.

 

I believe seasons like 86, 87, 88, 89, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2002, 2003, and 2004 would be helped by better teams to see.

You are basing the arguement on two teams. Yes the Yankees and Red Sox will draw more fans here. There are 11 teams that they Sox will play 62 other games against. (Add in the fact that we already play 9 games against those teams so the difference becomes 10 games instead of 19.) Throw out the 3 Cubs sellouts, and there are still 59 other game's that attendance will suffer greatly because there will be no reason to go to them. So as I see it.

 

So basically 10 games attendance jumps pretty big

12 games stay about the same

59 games suffer pretty big.

 

Where as those pivitol 59 games still have a much better chance of selling tickets. If the Sox stay in the hunt, the fans come out in droves, much like they did in June and July when attendance was through the roof, or like they did last year down the stretch.

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You are basing the arguement on two teams. Yes the Yankees and Red Sox will draw more fans here.  There are 11 teams that they Sox will play 62 other games against.  (Add in the fact that we already play 9 games against those teams so the difference becomes 10 games instead of 19.)  Throw out the 3 Cubs sellouts, and there are still 59 other game's that attendance will suffer greatly because there will be no reason to go to them.  So as I see it.

 

So basically 10 games attendance jumps pretty big

12 games stay about the same

59 games suffer pretty big.

 

Where as those pivitol 59 games still have a much better chance of selling tickets.  If the Sox stay in the hunt,  the fans come out in droves, much like they did in June and July when attendance was through the roof, or like they did last year down the stretch.

You're premise is we would be out of it before the season started. You never see us competing with the Yankees and Red Sox?

 

I think you get better by competing against the best. Not only on the field, but in the GM position, the ownership position, the travelling secretaries position. Imagine if we were trying to unseat the Yankees instead of the Twins? Then we would be trying to build a WS Champion instead of a best of the worse team.

 

True, most seasons we would be chasing a wild card, not a battle to lose in the first round of the playoffs.

 

Put another way. Would a Championship AAA team in the Cell outdraw the Sox finishing in third? If the only reason to go to a game, was for Mr. Fair Weather, Bandwagon Jumping Fan to see a winner, why not be the biggest market minor league team?

 

I'll answer that. Because people want to see baseball talent. They want to see Bonds, Jeter, A-Rod. They want to come out and jeer the Yankmees.

 

Let's stop thinking Smallsville USA and compete in the premier division, not the bottom feeders.

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You're premise is we would be out of it before the season started. You never see us competing with the Yankees and Red Sox?

 

I think you get better by competing against the best. Not only on the field, but in the GM position, the ownership position, the travelling secretaries position. Imagine if we were trying to unseat the Yankees instead of the Twins? Then we would be trying to build a WS Champion instead of a best of the worse team.

 

True, most seasons we would be chasing a wild card, not a battle to lose in the first round of the playoffs.

 

Put another way. Would a Championship AAA team in the Cell outdraw the Sox finishing in third? If the only reason to go to a game, was for Mr. Fair Weather, Bandwagon Jumping Fan to see a winner, why not be the biggest market minor league team?

 

I'll answer that. Because people want to see baseball talent. They want to see Bonds, Jeter, A-Rod. They want to come out and jeer the Yankmees.

 

Let's stop thinking Smallsville USA and compete in the premier division, not the bottom feeders.

No I don't see us competing with the Red Sox or Yankees. Tell me how do you see this team competing with them? We don't have their payroll, we have a mediocre minor league system at best that hasn't produced a star in how long?

 

Do you really think if we moved to the AL East next we would finish any better than 3rd? How? Where are these miracle players going to come from, who haven't been able to beat Detroit and Minnesota going to come from to beat the Yankees and Red Sox? Playing a higher level of competition doesn't mean they will win more.

 

Like it or not the Chicago White Sox are bottom feeders in Chicago. They are the by-line to the Cubs headline. Look at their attendance numbers. Even when the Sox play better than the Cubs they still get out drawn. And that isn't going to change by becoming a guarenteed 3rd or 4th place team. It will only get worse if this team has no chance.

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No I don't see us competing with the Red Sox or Yankees.  Tell me how do you see this team competing with them?  We don't have their payroll, we have a mediocre minor league system at best that hasn't produced a star in how long?

 

Do you really think if we moved to the AL East next we would finish any better than 3rd?  How?  Where are these miracle players going to come from, who haven't been able to beat Detroit and Minnesota going to come from to beat the Yankees and Red Sox?  Playing a higher level of competition doesn't mean they will win more.

 

Like it or not the Chicago White Sox are bottom feeders in Chicago.  They are the by-line to the Cubs headline.  Look at their attendance numbers.  Even when the Sox play better than the Cubs they still get out drawn.  And that isn't going to change by becoming a guarenteed 3rd or 4th place team.  It will only get worse if this team has no chance.

I think that the cub's days are numbered as far as out drawing the sox. This may draw up alot of people who dont agree with me, but I believe that 50 percent of their fanbase is only a fan of the team because of where the ballpark is located. When that becomes unsafe to play in, theres almost no way the city will allow a new building to be put up. This might make them move to the northern suburbs possibly which would def hurt the fanbase. This may be far-fetched, but I live on the north side of the city, just south of that s***ty piece of concrete, and I know for a fact that many of my neighbors only like the cubs because the park is there.

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I think that the cub's days are numbered as far as out drawing the sox.  This may draw up alot of people who dont agree with me, but I believe that 50 percent of their fanbase is only a fan of the team because of where the ballpark is located.  When that becomes unsafe to play in, theres almost no way the city will allow a new building to be put up.  This might make them move to the northern suburbs possibly which would def hurt the fanbase.  This may be far-fetched, but I live on the north side of the city, just south of that s***ty piece of concrete, and I know for a fact that many of my neighbors only like the cubs because the park is there.

I do not see the Cubs leaving Wriglyville in anyone here's lifetime. IMHO the loyal intelligent fan base is about evenly split between the teams. The battle is for the casual fan who attends two or three games a year. The Cubs have made themselves a hot ticket and the Sox will again.

 

If either team was to leave the city, it would have been the Sox. Who knows what Arlington Heights would have been like?

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This would totally suck if the Sox went to the AL East. The Red Sox and Yankees are always on top and not to mention the Devil Rays continue to get better.

I don't see it happening.

 

If I see any changes it would be some sort of alternating Division A and B based on finish or a small market vs. big market, adjusted for cities which have two teams, or a small payroll vs. large payroll.

 

Or finally putting in a hard salary cap.

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I don't know why some of you are saying "This ain't gonna happen." It might not, but there is reason to believe that it might. I heard Gammons talk about this on ESPN News earlier today. He said that Reinsdorf is heading the negotiations about moving the Expos to DC. Of course the Orioles owner Angelos has been against having this kind of competition in his backyard. Apparently, he would like to move the Orioles to the NL East. To facilitate this, Gammons said Reinsdorf offered to move the Chisox to the AL East. Then, Toronto would move to the AL Central.

 

Since Reinsdorf is spearheading this negotiation, it seems plausible. But, even if Gammons is right on this, it was merely an offer made in a negotiation. It might not happen. But, those who are writing it off don't have their heads screwed on right. Jerry sees dollar signs in moving into the NL East. I have always thought that Jerry would rather make a guaranteed profit from the Sox, than risk extra money to fund a champion. I think he sees this realignment as easy money for him and the ownership group.

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I don't know why some of you are saying "This ain't gonna happen."  It might not, but there is reason to believe that it might.  I heard Gammons talk about this on ESPN News earlier today.  He said that Reinsdorf is heading the negotiations about moving the Expos to DC.  Of course the Orioles owner Angelos has been against having this kind of competition in his backyard.  Apparently, he would like to move the Orioles to the NL East.  To facilitate this, Gammons said Reinsdorf offered to move the Chisox to the AL East.  Then, Toronto would move to the AL Central.

 

Since Reinsdorf is spearheading this negotiation, it seems plausible.  But, even if Gammons is right on this, it was merely an offer made in a negotiation.  It might not happen.  But, those who are writing it off don't have their heads screwed on right.  Jerry sees dollar signs in moving into the NL East.  I have always thought that Jerry would rather make a guaranteed profit from the Sox, than risk extra money to fund a champion.  I think he sees this realignment as easy money for him and the ownership group.

Very valid points!!!

 

Especially when you consider that first and foremost on JR's agenda is making money, not competitiveness, not championships, just $$$!

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Very valid points!!!

 

Especially when you consider that first and foremost on JR's agenda is making money, not competitiveness, not championships, just $$$!

If that were really true, then JR and company are fools. There are much more profitiable venues than baseball. Even when you account for accounting fudges, they can't be making much at all. With the salary structure as it is, there are very few really profitiable teams in baseball. There are much more profitable things they could be investing in, vs making miniscule %age returns on a cost intensive product. But don't let facts get in the way of your screaming at the top of your lungs about the end of the world.

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I think that the cub's days are numbered as far as out drawing the sox.  This may draw up alot of people who dont agree with me, but I believe that 50 percent of their fanbase is only a fan of the team because of where the ballpark is located.

Sox fans have professed a belief that if JR would field a consistent, winning ballclub the fans would attend games. We may bash bandwagon jumping, Northside yuppies for attending Wrigley merely for the 'hipness,' but I see nothing but good coming from the Tribune organization. Long as Hendry rapes less fortunate organizations of talent and the payroll is steady around 100 million, this team will be in contention for many years to come.

 

Six years ago Cub fans fit their label as ignorant fans, but recent success has changed the attitude of their fanbase. Six years ago Cub fans would fill their park to stare at ivy. Now they have a reason (if one was ever needed) to attend the Urinal. Two straight years of fielding a playoff caliber team with talented players at (nearly) every position and your park will fill.

 

It sickens me to applaud anything happening on the Northside, but they are fortunate in possessing a good team, high payroll, and lemming fan base.

 

When that becomes unsafe to play in, theres almost no way the city will allow a new building to be put up.  This might make them move to the northern suburbs possibly which would def hurt the fanbase.

 

Moronic Cub fans fill up every ballpark they attend. What makes you believe their fans wouldn't travel another half an hour to watch their team? Look at Milwaukee, or as Chimp Carey has so eloquently put it; "North Chicago." Wrigley Field could be floating in Lake Michigan and as long as WGN broadcasts games, the beers flowing, some girls jugs are busting out, and the suns shining the park would be packed.

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If that were really true, then JR and company are fools.  There are much more profitiable venues than baseball.  Even when you account for accounting fudges, they can't be making much at all.  With the salary structure as it is, there are very few really profitiable teams in baseball.  There are much more profitable things they could be investing in, vs making miniscule %age returns on a cost intensive product.  But don't let facts get in the way of your screaming at the top of your lungs about the end of the world.

You are correct, the best way to make a small fortune in baseball is to start with a large fortune.

 

But for every Mark Cuban there is a Jerry.

 

Why buy a MLB franchise? To make money, break even, or as a hobby that will cost you some $$? Perhaps out a sense of history and keeping a team in it's traditional city. Perhaps to join an elite club? If it is out of some history or wanting to be a part of MLB, then moving the team to the A.L. East would seem perfectly natural.

 

Short of the dig at 4E, that's a HoF post :D

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If that were really true, then JR and company are fools.  There are much more profitiable venues than baseball.  Even when you account for accounting fudges, they can't be making much at all.  With the salary structure as it is, there are very few really profitiable teams in baseball.  There are much more profitable things they could be investing in, vs making miniscule %age returns on a cost intensive product.  But don't let facts get in the way of your screaming at the top of your lungs about the end of the world.

Another JR-apologist heard from.

 

History 101...when JR and his investors bought the Sox, they paid roughly $80 million (if I remember correctly). What do you suppose they could sell the team for now? Hmmmm. Mayber anywhere from #200-300 million, maybe more?!

 

Not profitable? I beg to differ!

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Another JR-apologist heard from.

 

History 101...when JR and his investors bought the Sox, they paid roughly $80 million (if I remember correctly). What do you suppose they could sell the team for now? Hmmmm. Mayber anywhere from #200-300 million, maybe more?!

 

Not profitable? I beg to differ!

Would you care to adjust that 200 mil for inflation?

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