Hatchetman Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 $80 million! they paid $21 million i think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Another JR-apologist heard from. History 101...when JR and his investors bought the Sox, they paid roughly $80 million (if I remember correctly). What do you suppose they could sell the team for now? Hmmmm. Mayber anywhere from #200-300 million, maybe more?! Not profitable? I beg to differ! That is over a 25 year period. You wanna tell me how much the Dow is up over the same period? I'll tell you. About 12X's. If they only made about 3 Xs their money back, they are horrible investers. (call that Business Math 101) Out of curiousity, how much do you think they make on that $250 million team? So if I am an JR apologist for thinking that he is a bad investor if he can only triple his money in 25 years, what does that make someone who thinks that is profitable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Man, I hate to debunk the 200 mil but using the inlfation calculator at Link here What cost $80 in 1981 would cost $170.38 in 2003. Also, if you were to buy exactly the same products in 2003 and 1981, they would cost you $80 and $37.56 respectively. Source The pre-1975 data are the Consumer Price Index statistics from Historical Statistics of the United States (USGPO, 1975). All data since then are from the annual Statistical Abstracts of the United States. Do you want to do another calculation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 You are not taking into consideration the profit they earn from the team on a yearly basis! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 You are not taking into consideration the profit they earn from the team on a yearly basis! What do you think that profit is? How much accounting creativity are you saying the Sox commit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I do not see the Cubs leaving Wriglyville in anyone here's lifetime. IMHO the loyal intelligent fan base is about evenly split between the teams. The battle is for the casual fan who attends two or three games a year. The Cubs have made themselves a hot ticket and the Sox will again. If either team was to leave the city, it would have been the Sox. Who knows what Arlington Heights would have been like? The stadium is falling apart before our very eyes, not to mention that the city cannot tear it down considering its a landmark now. So the best they can do, when it becomes inhabitable, is either put up more nets, or move the team. Unless someone knows more than me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFanForever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 By the way, if anyone read the article over on WSI...it has no reference about the White Sox. The poster is claming Gammons was on the radio out there and said JR contacted MLB to do this. Ya sure, and I'll believe it when me s*** turns into rainbow sherbert. Nice one Denim Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 "I always loved sports, and I made enough money from the sale of the company that I didn't need to do something I didn't like. The teams are a significant part of my net worth, but I'm in sports because I love being in sports. I didn't get into sports to make money. I think I've been lucky that during the time I've been involved in sports, the value of sports franchises has gone up. (A recent analysis in the Wall Street Journal estimates that the value of the average baseball franchise has soared to $233 million from $115 million in the last five years--about the same percentage gain that the bull market in stocks returned. The Sox were purchased for $19 million in 1981, and the Bulls were bought for $16 million in 1985.) Average of 233 million bought at $19 million. I score this round to 4E with a couple assists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxWatcher Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 If that were really true, then JR and company are fools. There are much more profitiable venues than baseball. Even when you account for accounting fudges, they can't be making much at all. With the salary structure as it is, there are very few really profitiable teams in baseball. There are much more profitable things they could be investing in, vs making miniscule %age returns on a cost intensive product. But don't let facts get in the way of your screaming at the top of your lungs about the end of the world. Please don't be so naive. For the most part, businessmen are businessmen. I'm sure the members of the ownership group bought into this team because they love baseball, not because they thought it the most profitable investment. But, being businessmen, they are going to run this team in as profitable a manner as possible. They will invest some money in payroll, but not too much. All eyes are on the bottom line. Are they willing to make the $100 million gambles that Angelos made year in and year out? Of course not. They want to win, but not at the expense of fiscal conservatism. They love baseball and owning a baseball team. But, are they willing to sacrifice profits (and risk taking losses) in order to really take a chance on building a championship team? Clearly not. As evidence, look at the history of the ACTIONS of this ownership group. So, I will again say that moving to the AL East is perfectly consistent with this ownership group's predominant philosophy: spend enough to compete, don't lose money, who cares about championships? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 What do you think that profit is? How much accounting creativity are you saying the Sox commit? I don't know. Consider attendance, tv revenue, parking revenue, concessions, marketing, etc. Subtract expenses from those....PROFIT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Please don't be so naive. For the most part, businessmen are businessmen. I'm sure the members of the ownership group bought into this team because they love baseball, not because they thought it the most profitable investment. But, being businessmen, they are going to run this team in as profitable a manner as possible. They will invest some money in payroll, but not too much. All eyes are on the bottom line. Are they willing to make the $100 million gambles that Angelos made year in and year out? Of course not. They want to win, but not at the expense of fiscal conservatism. They love baseball and owning a baseball team. But, are they willing to sacrifice profits (and risk taking losses) in order to really take a chance on building a championship team? Clearly not. As evidence, look at the history of the ACTIONS of this ownership group. So, I will again say that moving to the AL East is perfectly consistent with this ownership group's predominant philosophy: spend enough to compete, don't lose money, who cares about championships? BINGO!!! Don't ever think for a milisecond that JR will ever put fan interests ahead of profits! It'll never happen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Another JR-apologist heard from. History 101...when JR and his investors bought the Sox, they paid roughly $80 million (if I remember correctly). What do you suppose they could sell the team for now? Hmmmm. Mayber anywhere from #200-300 million, maybe more?! Not profitable? I beg to differ! Holy s***.. someone stop the presses... a group of people who bought a business and WANT it to be profitable..?? :rolly And Mike didn't say they weren't profitable. Why don't you read what's there instead of always spouting off about how Jerry is the anti-christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 BINGO!!! Don't ever think for a milisecond that JR will ever put fan interests ahead of profits! It'll never happen! There is a gamble in sports ownership. Each owner has more or less of a tolerance towards the risk. JR doesn't like long term pitcher contracts, other guys will stick their necks out an extra year. I set Mark Cuban a letter asking him to please buy the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxWatcher Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Holy s***.. someone stop the presses... a group of people who bought a business and WANT it to be profitable..?? Exactly. No one should be shocked that the primary interest of the Ownership Group is profitability. That is why they have modest, but not tiny payrolls year in and year out. Enough to compete, but not so much that it is financially risky (and not enough to actually build a championship team). So, why would anyone assume that JR isn't trying to get the Sox into the AL East, where the team would be more profitable, and have less of a chance of being a champion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Please don't be so naive. For the most part, businessmen are businessmen. I'm sure the members of the ownership group bought into this team because they love baseball, not because they thought it the most profitable investment. But, being businessmen, they are going to run this team in as profitable a manner as possible. They will invest some money in payroll, but not too much. All eyes are on the bottom line. Are they willing to make the $100 million gambles that Angelos made year in and year out? Of course not. They want to win, but not at the expense of fiscal conservatism. They love baseball and owning a baseball team. But, are they willing to sacrifice profits (and risk taking losses) in order to really take a chance on building a championship team? Clearly not. As evidence, look at the history of the ACTIONS of this ownership group. So, I will again say that moving to the AL East is perfectly consistent with this ownership group's predominant philosophy: spend enough to compete, don't lose money, who cares about championships? Then tell me this. Why would you waste your time and money rooting for a team that you all are saying is ripping you off and lying to your face? I don't get that. I know if someone were to use me, and then lie to me about it, I wouldn't waste my time with them. Wouldn't that make you naive? If they really wanted to make maximum money, they would melt down this team just like Tampa Bay and go in with a $30 million payroll. They would make tons of money. The Sox are a balance of fiscal responsibility, like it or not. They don't have the incomes to go out like Steinbrenner, and they don't have the short sighted ownership to go out and sign tons of players, only to have the debt crushing the franchise like the Diamondbacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Exactly. No one should be shocked that the primary interest of the Ownership Group is profitability. That is why they have modest, but not tiny payrolls year in and year out. Enough to compete, but not so much that it is financially risky (and not enough to actually build a championship team). So, why would anyone assume that JR isn't trying to get the Sox into the AL East, where the team would be more profitable, and have less of a chance of being a champion? southsider has presented a very nice argument that the Sox may be less profitable in the AL East based on Sox fans being fair weather and only supporting a winner. Seems like a pretty solid theory and something Sox ownership should consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 (edited) If they really wanted to make maximum money, they would melt down this team just like Tampa Bay and go in with a $30 million payroll. They would make tons of money. You just put forth an argument that they wouldn't make money if they were not competitive. Now, when I am about to agree with you, you flip flop and claim a non competitive team would be profitable. Edited September 28, 2004 by Texsox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 southsider has presented a very nice argument that the Sox may be less profitable in the AL East based on Sox fans being fair weather and only supporting a winner. Seems like a pretty solid theory and something Sox ownership should consider. I disagree with the notion that JR and the ownership doesnt care about the fan base and just wants to run this like a business. If you have been to the park lately, they are trying to make the surroundings more fan friendly day by day. Wait until you see what they do before next year, including changing all the colors of the seats (they are going to be green). Some of these imrovements would seem a little over the top as far as profit margin would go, considering they could use the money for other ventures and ways to make capital. I think they all know that the bottom line in making money for the team, is the fans, and the fans love for the team. JR has seen this first hand in the dissolution of the BULLS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Exactly. No one should be shocked that the primary interest of the Ownership Group is profitability. That is why they have modest, but not tiny payrolls year in and year out. Enough to compete, but not so much that it is financially risky (and not enough to actually build a championship team). So, why would anyone assume that JR isn't trying to get the Sox into the AL East, where the team would be more profitable, and have less of a chance of being a champion? Tiny payroll? When compared to whom? The Yankees? They are the middle of the pack in payroll. Guess where they are in attendance? About 10 positions lower. Are you advocating that the team should be taking a loss in hopes of winning it all? Are you advocating a system like the Mets, Diamondbacks, Angels, Rangers etc, where they go out and spend a ton of money, only to have it blow up in their faces? Those teams have all had to/ or are going to trade away players because their investments have blown up in their faces. Everyone celebrated the Angels for the moves they made, but I just read today that they have to shave $20 million in payroll for next year, because they are losing too much money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxWatcher Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Then tell me this. Why would you waste your time and money rooting for a team that you all are saying is ripping you off and lying to your face? I don't get that. I know if someone were to use me, and then lie to me about it, I wouldn't waste my time with them. Wouldn't that make you naive? If they really wanted to make maximum money, they would melt down this team just like Tampa Bay and go in with a $30 million payroll. They would make tons of money. The Sox are a balance of fiscal responsibility, like it or not. They don't have the incomes to go out like Steinbrenner, and they don't have the short sighted ownership to go out and sign tons of players, only to have the debt crushing the franchise like the Diamondbacks. Why root for the Sox when the ownership isn't doing all it can to win? Well, you can love a team without loving the ownership. All teams have problems. This one of the biggies for the Sox. And, of course, you are dead wrong when you say that the Sox would maximize profits if they blew up the team and had a $30 million payroll. The attendance would really drop and TV ratings would drop, leading to a bad new TV contract. This mediocre spending leads to a mediocre team. That leads to enough attendance and TV money to make a modest profit for the Ownership Group. It is a modest, safe profit. Low risk, guaranteed reward. That reward goes up (without increasing the risk) if the Sox move to the AL East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Tiny payroll? When compared to whom? The Yankees? They are the middle of the pack in payroll. Guess where they are in attendance? About 10 positions lower. Are you advocating that the team should be taking a loss in hopes of winning it all? Are you advocating a system like the Mets, Diamondbacks, Angels, Rangers etc, where they go out and spend a ton of money, only to have it blow up in their faces? Those teams have all had to/ or are going to trade away players because their investments have blown up in their faces. Everyone celebrated the Angels for the moves they made, but I just read today that they have to shave $20 million in payroll for next year, because they are losing too much money. I believe he said modest, but not tiny . . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 You just put forth an argument that they wouldn't make money if they were not competitive. Now, when I am about to agree with you, you flip flop and claim a non competitive team would be profitable. Big difference being the payroll number. A $70 million team (the team we essentialy have now) in the AL east would lose money. A $30 million team wouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Holy s***.. someone stop the presses... a group of people who bought a business and WANT it to be profitable..?? :rolly And Mike didn't say they weren't profitable. Why don't you read what's there instead of always spouting off about how Jerry is the anti-christ. How much profit is enough, Steff? JR can keep running out an inferior product, and cry poor when the fans won't come out to see it? That's okay with you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxWatcher Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I believe he said modest, but not tiny . . . Indeed I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Why root for the Sox when the ownership isn't doing all it can to win? Well, you can love a team without loving the ownership. All teams have problems. This one of the biggies for the Sox. So it doesn't bother you that the you believe the Sox are lying straight to your face? Interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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