Steff Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 By the way, if anyone read the article over on WSI...it has no reference about the White Sox. The poster is claming Gammons was on the radio out there and said JR contacted MLB to do this. Ya sure, and I'll believe it when me s*** turns into rainbow sherbert. :puke Gross jason.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 You can't compare the Tigers to the Yankees, anymore than you can compare the Devil Rays to the Twins. The Yankees will have big crowds here, as will the Red Sox. The Devil Rays, Blue Jays, and Orioles will not. And you are dead on right, the casual fan is the one we will be fighting for. But the casual fans aren't going to be going to see the Sox and Yankees, because those games sell out. Getting the casual fan to go see the Sox play the Devil Rays is the problem. And if the Rays stink AND the Sox stink no one is going to go. But if the Sox are playing the Devil Rays while battling Twins for first place, people are much more likely to go, because they will pay to see a winner. Like I said if you don't believe my arguement, go back and look at the Sox attendance trends. Take a look closely at the Sox record, and how many fans show up to games. There is a direct correlation. I agree. In our division the only reason to go to a game is if the Sox are winning. If they are losing stay home because Central Division baseball only offers mediocre talent and non competitive teams. It is the weakest division. Sox fans would rather watch the Sox beat up on a talentless Tigers team than watch the best teams in baseball. I believe seasons like 86, 87, 88, 89, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2002, 2003, and 2004 would be helped by better teams to see. 2003 Chicago White Sox American League 86 76 .531 4.0 1,939,594 2002 Chicago White Sox American League 81 81 .500 13.5 1,676,911 2001 Chicago White Sox American League 83 79 .512 8.0 1,766,172 2000 Chicago White Sox American League 95 67 .586 - 1,947,799 1999 Chicago White Sox American League 75 86 .466 21.5 1,339,121 1998 Chicago White Sox American League 80 82 .494 9.0 1,391,146 1997 Chicago White Sox American League 80 81 .497 6.0 1,864,782 1996 Chicago White Sox American League 85 77 .525 14.5 1,676,403 1995 Chicago White Sox American League 68 76 .472 32.0 1,609,773 1994 Chicago White Sox American League 67 46 .593 - 1,697,398 1993 Chicago White Sox American League 94 68 .580 - 2,581,091 1992 Chicago White Sox American League 86 76 .531 10.0 2,681,156 1991 Chicago White Sox American League 87 75 .537 8.0 2,934,154 1990 Chicago White Sox American League 94 68 .580 9.0 2,002,357 1989 Chicago White Sox American League 69 92 .429 29.5 1,045,651 1988 Chicago White Sox American League 71 90 .441 32.5 1,115,749 1987 Chicago White Sox American League 77 85 .475 8.0 1,208,060 1986 Chicago White Sox American League 72 90 .444 20.0 1,424,313 1985 Chicago White Sox American League 85 77 .525 6.0 1,669,888 1984 Chicago White Sox American League 74 88 .457 10.0 2,136,988 1983 Chicago White Sox American League 99 63 .611 - 2,132,821 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 i don't recall players complaining about travel when we were in the same division as california, oakland and seattle... AT that time there were only two divisions and it was prefered to the east. The division was very geographic with only Milwaukee being west of the Sox and in the East Division. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I don't believe the rumor myself, however, don't discount my theory in which a move to the AL East could be a precursor to a move from Chicago to Charlotte. It's a wide open market wherein they wouldn't have to compete with the damned cubs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 if charlotte was such a good market why didn't they move the expos there? mlb has dragged their feet for years trying to find somewhere OTHER than DC to put a team.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 and secondly I guarandamn tee you that every team in the AL East will b**** about having to travel to Chciago. Wasn't Chicago at the top of the list of players favorite places to come play...? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 if charlotte was such a good market why didn't they move the expos there? mlb has dragged their feet for years trying to find somewhere OTHER than DC to put a team.. I can't answer that. But the Sox already have a minor league affiliate in Hickory, NC. Also, the NFL and NHL franchises in NC do pretty well, and the NBA is coming back to Charlotte. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I agree. In our division the only reason to go to a game is if the Sox are winning. If they are losing stay home because Central Division baseball only offers mediocre talent and non competitive teams. It is the weakest division. Sox fans would rather watch the Sox beat up on a talentless Tigers team than watch the best teams in baseball. I believe seasons like 86, 87, 88, 89, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 2002, 2003, and 2004 would be helped by better teams to see. You are basing the arguement on two teams. Yes the Yankees and Red Sox will draw more fans here. There are 11 teams that they Sox will play 62 other games against. (Add in the fact that we already play 9 games against those teams so the difference becomes 10 games instead of 19.) Throw out the 3 Cubs sellouts, and there are still 59 other game's that attendance will suffer greatly because there will be no reason to go to them. So as I see it. So basically 10 games attendance jumps pretty big 12 games stay about the same 59 games suffer pretty big. Where as those pivitol 59 games still have a much better chance of selling tickets. If the Sox stay in the hunt, the fans come out in droves, much like they did in June and July when attendance was through the roof, or like they did last year down the stretch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greasywheels121 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 From the West...to the Central...to the East.... I'm not worried, this is not happening..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 You are basing the arguement on two teams. Yes the Yankees and Red Sox will draw more fans here. There are 11 teams that they Sox will play 62 other games against. (Add in the fact that we already play 9 games against those teams so the difference becomes 10 games instead of 19.) Throw out the 3 Cubs sellouts, and there are still 59 other game's that attendance will suffer greatly because there will be no reason to go to them. So as I see it. So basically 10 games attendance jumps pretty big 12 games stay about the same 59 games suffer pretty big. Where as those pivitol 59 games still have a much better chance of selling tickets. If the Sox stay in the hunt, the fans come out in droves, much like they did in June and July when attendance was through the roof, or like they did last year down the stretch. You're premise is we would be out of it before the season started. You never see us competing with the Yankees and Red Sox? I think you get better by competing against the best. Not only on the field, but in the GM position, the ownership position, the travelling secretaries position. Imagine if we were trying to unseat the Yankees instead of the Twins? Then we would be trying to build a WS Champion instead of a best of the worse team. True, most seasons we would be chasing a wild card, not a battle to lose in the first round of the playoffs. Put another way. Would a Championship AAA team in the Cell outdraw the Sox finishing in third? If the only reason to go to a game, was for Mr. Fair Weather, Bandwagon Jumping Fan to see a winner, why not be the biggest market minor league team? I'll answer that. Because people want to see baseball talent. They want to see Bonds, Jeter, A-Rod. They want to come out and jeer the Yankmees. Let's stop thinking Smallsville USA and compete in the premier division, not the bottom feeders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WSoxShuf Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 From the West...to the Central...to the East.... I'm not worried, this is not happening..... this is a dead topic, along with WSI in general Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I'm still pissed about the Brewers going to the NL. I'd be just as pissed seeing the Orioles go there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 You're premise is we would be out of it before the season started. You never see us competing with the Yankees and Red Sox? I think you get better by competing against the best. Not only on the field, but in the GM position, the ownership position, the travelling secretaries position. Imagine if we were trying to unseat the Yankees instead of the Twins? Then we would be trying to build a WS Champion instead of a best of the worse team. True, most seasons we would be chasing a wild card, not a battle to lose in the first round of the playoffs. Put another way. Would a Championship AAA team in the Cell outdraw the Sox finishing in third? If the only reason to go to a game, was for Mr. Fair Weather, Bandwagon Jumping Fan to see a winner, why not be the biggest market minor league team? I'll answer that. Because people want to see baseball talent. They want to see Bonds, Jeter, A-Rod. They want to come out and jeer the Yankmees. Let's stop thinking Smallsville USA and compete in the premier division, not the bottom feeders. No I don't see us competing with the Red Sox or Yankees. Tell me how do you see this team competing with them? We don't have their payroll, we have a mediocre minor league system at best that hasn't produced a star in how long? Do you really think if we moved to the AL East next we would finish any better than 3rd? How? Where are these miracle players going to come from, who haven't been able to beat Detroit and Minnesota going to come from to beat the Yankees and Red Sox? Playing a higher level of competition doesn't mean they will win more. Like it or not the Chicago White Sox are bottom feeders in Chicago. They are the by-line to the Cubs headline. Look at their attendance numbers. Even when the Sox play better than the Cubs they still get out drawn. And that isn't going to change by becoming a guarenteed 3rd or 4th place team. It will only get worse if this team has no chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 No I don't see us competing with the Red Sox or Yankees. Tell me how do you see this team competing with them? We don't have their payroll, we have a mediocre minor league system at best that hasn't produced a star in how long? Do you really think if we moved to the AL East next we would finish any better than 3rd? How? Where are these miracle players going to come from, who haven't been able to beat Detroit and Minnesota going to come from to beat the Yankees and Red Sox? Playing a higher level of competition doesn't mean they will win more. Like it or not the Chicago White Sox are bottom feeders in Chicago. They are the by-line to the Cubs headline. Look at their attendance numbers. Even when the Sox play better than the Cubs they still get out drawn. And that isn't going to change by becoming a guarenteed 3rd or 4th place team. It will only get worse if this team has no chance. I think that the cub's days are numbered as far as out drawing the sox. This may draw up alot of people who dont agree with me, but I believe that 50 percent of their fanbase is only a fan of the team because of where the ballpark is located. When that becomes unsafe to play in, theres almost no way the city will allow a new building to be put up. This might make them move to the northern suburbs possibly which would def hurt the fanbase. This may be far-fetched, but I live on the north side of the city, just south of that s***ty piece of concrete, and I know for a fact that many of my neighbors only like the cubs because the park is there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I think that the cub's days are numbered as far as out drawing the sox. This may draw up alot of people who dont agree with me, but I believe that 50 percent of their fanbase is only a fan of the team because of where the ballpark is located. When that becomes unsafe to play in, theres almost no way the city will allow a new building to be put up. This might make them move to the northern suburbs possibly which would def hurt the fanbase. This may be far-fetched, but I live on the north side of the city, just south of that s***ty piece of concrete, and I know for a fact that many of my neighbors only like the cubs because the park is there. I do not see the Cubs leaving Wriglyville in anyone here's lifetime. IMHO the loyal intelligent fan base is about evenly split between the teams. The battle is for the casual fan who attends two or three games a year. The Cubs have made themselves a hot ticket and the Sox will again. If either team was to leave the city, it would have been the Sox. Who knows what Arlington Heights would have been like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 This would totally suck if the Sox went to the AL East. The Red Sox and Yankees are always on top and not to mention the Devil Rays continue to get better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 This would totally suck if the Sox went to the AL East. The Red Sox and Yankees are always on top and not to mention the Devil Rays continue to get better. I don't see it happening. If I see any changes it would be some sort of alternating Division A and B based on finish or a small market vs. big market, adjusted for cities which have two teams, or a small payroll vs. large payroll. Or finally putting in a hard salary cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxWatcher Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I don't know why some of you are saying "This ain't gonna happen." It might not, but there is reason to believe that it might. I heard Gammons talk about this on ESPN News earlier today. He said that Reinsdorf is heading the negotiations about moving the Expos to DC. Of course the Orioles owner Angelos has been against having this kind of competition in his backyard. Apparently, he would like to move the Orioles to the NL East. To facilitate this, Gammons said Reinsdorf offered to move the Chisox to the AL East. Then, Toronto would move to the AL Central. Since Reinsdorf is spearheading this negotiation, it seems plausible. But, even if Gammons is right on this, it was merely an offer made in a negotiation. It might not happen. But, those who are writing it off don't have their heads screwed on right. Jerry sees dollar signs in moving into the NL East. I have always thought that Jerry would rather make a guaranteed profit from the Sox, than risk extra money to fund a champion. I think he sees this realignment as easy money for him and the ownership group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I don't know why some of you are saying "This ain't gonna happen." It might not, but there is reason to believe that it might. I heard Gammons talk about this on ESPN News earlier today. He said that Reinsdorf is heading the negotiations about moving the Expos to DC. Of course the Orioles owner Angelos has been against having this kind of competition in his backyard. Apparently, he would like to move the Orioles to the NL East. To facilitate this, Gammons said Reinsdorf offered to move the Chisox to the AL East. Then, Toronto would move to the AL Central. Since Reinsdorf is spearheading this negotiation, it seems plausible. But, even if Gammons is right on this, it was merely an offer made in a negotiation. It might not happen. But, those who are writing it off don't have their heads screwed on right. Jerry sees dollar signs in moving into the NL East. I have always thought that Jerry would rather make a guaranteed profit from the Sox, than risk extra money to fund a champion. I think he sees this realignment as easy money for him and the ownership group. Very valid points!!! Especially when you consider that first and foremost on JR's agenda is making money, not competitiveness, not championships, just $$$! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Isn't it great having an owner that puts the business interests of Major League Baseball over the selfish interests of his own team? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Very valid points!!! Especially when you consider that first and foremost on JR's agenda is making money, not competitiveness, not championships, just $$$! If that were really true, then JR and company are fools. There are much more profitiable venues than baseball. Even when you account for accounting fudges, they can't be making much at all. With the salary structure as it is, there are very few really profitiable teams in baseball. There are much more profitable things they could be investing in, vs making miniscule %age returns on a cost intensive product. But don't let facts get in the way of your screaming at the top of your lungs about the end of the world. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I think that the cub's days are numbered as far as out drawing the sox. This may draw up alot of people who dont agree with me, but I believe that 50 percent of their fanbase is only a fan of the team because of where the ballpark is located. Sox fans have professed a belief that if JR would field a consistent, winning ballclub the fans would attend games. We may bash bandwagon jumping, Northside yuppies for attending Wrigley merely for the 'hipness,' but I see nothing but good coming from the Tribune organization. Long as Hendry rapes less fortunate organizations of talent and the payroll is steady around 100 million, this team will be in contention for many years to come. Six years ago Cub fans fit their label as ignorant fans, but recent success has changed the attitude of their fanbase. Six years ago Cub fans would fill their park to stare at ivy. Now they have a reason (if one was ever needed) to attend the Urinal. Two straight years of fielding a playoff caliber team with talented players at (nearly) every position and your park will fill. It sickens me to applaud anything happening on the Northside, but they are fortunate in possessing a good team, high payroll, and lemming fan base. When that becomes unsafe to play in, theres almost no way the city will allow a new building to be put up. This might make them move to the northern suburbs possibly which would def hurt the fanbase. Moronic Cub fans fill up every ballpark they attend. What makes you believe their fans wouldn't travel another half an hour to watch their team? Look at Milwaukee, or as Chimp Carey has so eloquently put it; "North Chicago." Wrigley Field could be floating in Lake Michigan and as long as WGN broadcasts games, the beers flowing, some girls jugs are busting out, and the suns shining the park would be packed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 If that were really true, then JR and company are fools. There are much more profitiable venues than baseball. Even when you account for accounting fudges, they can't be making much at all. With the salary structure as it is, there are very few really profitiable teams in baseball. There are much more profitable things they could be investing in, vs making miniscule %age returns on a cost intensive product. But don't let facts get in the way of your screaming at the top of your lungs about the end of the world. You are correct, the best way to make a small fortune in baseball is to start with a large fortune. But for every Mark Cuban there is a Jerry. Why buy a MLB franchise? To make money, break even, or as a hobby that will cost you some $$? Perhaps out a sense of history and keeping a team in it's traditional city. Perhaps to join an elite club? If it is out of some history or wanting to be a part of MLB, then moving the team to the A.L. East would seem perfectly natural. Short of the dig at 4E, that's a HoF post Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 If that were really true, then JR and company are fools. There are much more profitiable venues than baseball. Even when you account for accounting fudges, they can't be making much at all. With the salary structure as it is, there are very few really profitiable teams in baseball. There are much more profitable things they could be investing in, vs making miniscule %age returns on a cost intensive product. But don't let facts get in the way of your screaming at the top of your lungs about the end of the world. Another JR-apologist heard from. History 101...when JR and his investors bought the Sox, they paid roughly $80 million (if I remember correctly). What do you suppose they could sell the team for now? Hmmmm. Mayber anywhere from #200-300 million, maybe more?! Not profitable? I beg to differ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Another JR-apologist heard from. History 101...when JR and his investors bought the Sox, they paid roughly $80 million (if I remember correctly). What do you suppose they could sell the team for now? Hmmmm. Mayber anywhere from #200-300 million, maybe more?! Not profitable? I beg to differ! Would you care to adjust that 200 mil for inflation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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