SoxWatcher Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 So it doesn't bother you that the you believe the Sox are lying straight to your face? Interesting. Uh yeah, it does bother me. Does it make me turn my back on the Sox? Nope. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 How much profit is enough, Steff? JR can keep running out an inferior product, and cry poor when the fans won't come out to see it? That's okay with you? The Sox are not an inferior product. They are an average product at worst. Inferior products are perpetual second division teams. Look at teams like the Royals, Tigers, Devil Rays, Brewers, Pirates, Expos etc, that never compete for anything. Those are inferior products. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 How much profit is enough, Steff? JR can keep running out an inferior product, and cry poor when the fans won't come out to see it? That's okay with you? Personally, I like alot of the things that the team has done for the fans. All of the promotional days, making the park much better to watch a game in as well as more pleasing to the eye. It seems like they have the fans in mind with these improvements, no???? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 (edited) Big difference being the payroll number. A $70 million team (the team we essentialy have now) in the AL east would lose money. A $30 million team wouldn't. Wait, you said a $30 million team would make huge profits. So a third place team with a chance loses money, but essentially a AAA club at $30 mil makes money? What kind of attendance numbers are you thinking for the $70 mil and $30 mil teams? If the $70 mil payroll would only draw about a million fans (your guess) what would the $30 mil team draw? Edited September 28, 2004 by Texsox Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 How much profit is enough, Steff? JR can keep running out an inferior product, and cry poor when the fans won't come out to see it? That's okay with you? First of all.. and for - at least - the 8,436,201st time... Jerry doesn't NOT run the financial show. Jerry is the chairman. The voice. That's all. Second, it's none of my business what the Sox profit. We pay for our tickets to be entertained and to watch baseball. As for an "inferior" product.. I don't think the Sox suck half as bad as I see crying about it on this and other boards. I have no control over what other fans do.. and I certiantly wouldn't bother to waste my time b****ing and moaning about it.. :rolly Yes, we're ok with the way we spend our money on Sox tickets. Thanks for your concern. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 The Sox are not an inferior product. They are an average product at worst. Inferior products are perpetual second division teams. Look at teams like the Royals, Tigers, Devil Rays, Brewers, Pirates, Expos etc, that never compete for anything. Those are inferior products. But you said the Sox cannot compete with the Yankees and Red Sox. I view it as the teams that can win it all and the rest of the teams. You've placed the White Sox in the cannot compete category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Wait, you said a $30 million team would make huge profits. So a third place team with a chance loses money, but essentially a AAA club at $30 mil makes money? What kind of attendance numbers are you think for the $70 mil and $30 mil teams? If the teams are competing the attendance is essentially the same. For me the key number is how many people show up to the park. It doesn't matter if you spend $100 million on a team, if they suck no one is going to go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 But you said the Sox cannot compete with the Yankees and Red Sox. I view it as the teams that can win it all and the rest of the teams. You've placed the White Sox in the cannot compete category. Inferior meaning one of the worst. Average meaning middle of the pack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 If the teams are competing the attendance is essentially the same. For me the key number is how many people show up to the park. It doesn't matter if you spend $100 million on a team, if they suck no one is going to go. So the same number of fans would show up without a Maggs, Thomas, Buerhle, etc.? Winning 80 games would be the same as winning 60 for attendance? I think you are typing a bit too fast bud. A $30 mil payroll would be destroyed by the Cubs and their marketing. Only the most loyal of Sox fans would remain. You would probably sell out the Yankee games, but nothing much after that. Sox fans would continue to support this team in the AL East. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 First of all.. and for - at least - the 8,436,201st time... Jerry doesn't NOT run the financial show. Jerry is the chairman. The voice. That's all. Second, it's none of my business what the Sox profit. We pay for our tickets to be entertained and to watch baseball. As for an "inferior" product.. I don't think the Sox suck half as bad as I see crying about it on this and other boards. I have no control over what other fans do.. and I certiantly wouldn't bother to waste my time b****ing and moaning about it.. :rolly Yes, we're ok with the way we spend our money on Sox tickets. Thanks for your concern. I agree with Steff, I am going to be a season ticket holder no matter what. I love the sox, and I like what they have done to make my baseball experience better, with the field, with the atmosphere. Now all we need is a few more wins, a little luck and back to the playoffs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 If the teams are competing the attendance is essentially the same. For me the key number is how many people show up to the park. It doesn't matter if you spend $100 million on a team, if they suck no one is going to go. You stated a non competitive team with a $30 million payroll would make loads of money. Now you are talking about if teams are competing. Are you debating yourself Let's start over: What payroll would the Sox need in the AL East to be the most profitable? What payroll would the Sox need in the AL Central to be the most profitable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 So the same number of fans would show up without a Maggs, Thomas, Buerhle, etc.? Winning 80 games would be the same as winning 60 for attendance? I think you are typing a bit too fast bud. A $30 mil payroll would be destroyed by the Cubs and their marketing. Only the most loyal of Sox fans would remain. You would probably sell out the Yankee games, but nothing much after that. Sox fans would continue to support this team in the AL East. This team won 80 games playing against the worst division in baseball. How do you think they will win 80 games playing 38 games against the Yankees and Red Sox? You are making the assumption that our 500 record would carry over to the AL East, which it would not. Once again if this team lost 12 games to the Twins, how the hell are they going to beat the Yankees and Red Sox? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I hate to use the "restaurant analogy" again, but it is the most appropriate! If your favorite restaurant was not nearly as good as it's competitors, would you still go there? What if it's owner told you, "I know we are not as good as our competition, but, if more people would eat here , we'd spend more money to improve our food."? Would you still eat there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I hate to use the "restaurant analogy" again, but it is the most appropriate! If your favorite restaurant was not nearly as good as it's competitors, would you still go there? What if it's owner told you, "I know we are not as good as our competition, but, if more people would eat here , we'd spend more money to improve our food."? Would you still eat there? Then don't. Cause it's stupid in this situation (not you.. the analogy - for clarification purposes). No matter how many times you say it, the Sox do not "suck". This group of guys, IMO, are mental migits. The talent is there. On paper... :rolly .. they win the central. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 This team won 80 games playing against the worst division in baseball. How do you think they will win 80 games playing 38 games against the Yankees and Red Sox? You are making the assumption that our 500 record would carry over to the AL East, which it would not. Once again if this team lost 12 games to the Twins, how the hell are they going to beat the Yankees and Red Sox? OK so change the numbers to anything you want. Most seasons would a $70Mil team win more games than a $30Mil team? What would the difference be? 70 vs 50? 75 vs 73? If I understand your position correctly it doesn't make a difference how many wins and loses if the team isn't competitive, field as cheap and non competitive team as you can, because doesn't make a difference in attendance. What would the Sox draw in the AL East with this team and with a $30mil payroll? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 You stated a non competitive team with a $30 million payroll would make loads of money. Now you are talking about if teams are competing. Are you debating yourself Let's start over: What payroll would the Sox need in the AL East to be the most profitable? What payroll would the Sox need in the AL Central to be the most profitable? No I am debating like 3 people at once, and you are taking answers from all of the different places and matching them with different questions. Initally you and I were talking about winning teams. Now these guy are talking about profits. To be profitable in the AL East, the Sox would have to slash payroll. A $70 million team with holes cannot compete with NY/BOS. And our fans will not pay $50 a ticket to support the 100ish million payroll needed to be a middle of the pack team-to competative team in the AL East(like the Yankees and Red Sox fans do). They can go see the much more adored Cubs for cheaper than that. Why would they visit the red headed step child? In the AL Central the cost per win is much cheaper. There are no huge payrolls and huge name to compete with here. They are obviously at least breaking even where they are, or else they would have cut payroll like they have done in the past. They can still be profitable at a much lower payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Then don't. Cause it's stupid in this situation (not you.. the analogy - for clarification purposes). No matter how many times you say it, the Sox do not "suck". This group of guys, IMO, are mental migits. The talent is there. On paper... :rolly .. they win the central. In my world, you are either a playoff/WS contender, or you're not...the Sox are NOT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I hate to use the "restaurant analogy" again, but it is the most appropriate! If your favorite restaurant was not nearly as good as it's competitors, would you still go there? What if it's owner told you, "I know we are not as good as our competition, but, if more people would eat here , we'd spend more money to improve our food."? Would you still eat there? Then why are you still so involved in this restaurant? That's why I don't get. You accuse the "restuaraunt" of everything under the sun, yet you still go there? Why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 southsider is this your position? An owner wants to make a profit (or at least break even), deserves a profit, and should do what he has to do to make a profit. If a team is in the AL East they shouldn't even try and compete, just put a cheap team out there with a $30,000,000 payroll and cash the checks. If a team is in the AL Central they should field a competitive team $70,000,000 more or less, and let the attendance rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 In my world, you are either a playoff/WS contender, or you're not...the Sox are NOT! OK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Don't settle for mediocrity...that's what you'll get. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxbadger Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 I dont mind the Sox moving to the East, I think the ownership will do what it takes to keep them competitive. Outside of the Braves and Yankees, only the White Sox have gone as long with out a top 10 pick, which means we pretty much get a average to good team every year. Sure the last 10 we have failed to meet our own expectations, but many teams and fans would accept 2nd place and a .500 average as a successfull year. To most of our fans, winning a World Series is the only acceptable accomplishment. And the last few years we have played terrible against the AL Central, but better against the AL East. Who knows, as Steff so aptly said, its not the talent, its in their heads. SB Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 southsider is this your position? An owner wants to make a profit (or at least break even), deserves a profit, and should do what he has to do to make a profit. If a team is in the AL East they shouldn't even try and compete, just put a cheap team out there with a $30,000,000 payroll and cash the checks. If a team is in the AL Central they should field a competitive team $70,000,000 more or less, and let the attendance rule. You are getting me totally mixed up with the other ones. I don't believe the Sox are in this to make a ton of money. But they are also not in this to lose money. I haven't said anywhere that the Sox should go to a lower payroll. I said if they were really interested in maximizing profits first, that they would go to a tiny payroll. But they don't. They try to win it, with out endangering the financial sitation of the team, like teams like Arizona have done. I believe if the Sox go to the AL East with this current team, that they will lose a lot more games, and attendance will drop at Comiskey Park. History has shown that attendance is the direct indicator of payroll for JR and Co. That means payroll will drop soon after a move. I wish you would actually answer some of my questions for once, instead of just asking me more questions. Do you think the Sox will win more games after a move to the AL East? If we can't beat teams like the Twins, how are we going to stay competitive against the Yankees and Boston? What kind of payroll can the Sox afford? How much money would it take to compete against those guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 Then why are you still so involved in this restaurant? That's why I don't get. You accuse the "restuaraunt" of everything under the sun, yet you still go there? Why? No answer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted September 28, 2004 Share Posted September 28, 2004 No answer? Why bother asking. I would guess it would be along the lines of "cause they are the team I like" or something like that. That's my argument also. Difference is I don't take it so personally and spend a good portion of my time whining about what I "think" is the Sox financial status. Baseball is entertainment for me. If the Sox win, yea.. if they lose it does not effect my everyday life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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