Who won the Debate?

[Texsox]

 

You have to love the matching outfits. Sucks when the ladies are both using the same political advisor.

[MinnesotaSoxFan]

Heinz is a loser who is lucky to have money thanks to Ketchup.

If not that, I would just wonder why the f*** Kerry bangs her.

[southsider2k5]

I DO understand that appearance definitely counts for something when people decide who was better and Bush was a stumbling, bumbling, and innarticulate.... but I really feel sorry for anyone who would totally base their opinion just on that. Kerry's arguements were often wrong, and he even contradicted himself a few times. Kerry may have been a more coehesive speaker.... but my god LISTEN TO WHAT IS COMING OUT HIS MOUTH! It was complete garbage.

 

edited: Do was replaced instead of Don't... that was a mistake.

This is a great statement Murc. Bush looked and sounded awful, and lost the sound bite war, which in 2004 determines who wins a debate. But you could have drove a truck through some of the holes in John Kerry's words. Here is my analysis of the debate. It is a cut and paste job from an email I sent someone, so if it doesn't fit right, that's why. But there was no way I was going to try to type all of that crap again. Enjoy, and I look forward to hearing rebuttals.

 

There were some huge holes in

Kerry's positions, IMO. First of all, Kerry said he accepted the

intellegence that the President had. Which means he accepted the

whole WMD thing and threat to the world thing. Now keeping that in

mind he chastised Bush for not accepting the recommendation to have

two additional divisions deployed over there, but on the other had

said he would not have committed 90% of troops and resources to Iraq.

So either he is saying that he would have sent a whole bunch more

troops over to Afganistan, or that the troops levels in Iraq are too

high. Which is it? He criticized Bush for spending $200 billion in

Iraq, (which could have gone to health care, school, prescription

drugs etc according to Kerry) but then went into detail about what

materials that our troops didn't have in Iraq. So tell me how does he

plan to send two extra divisions into Iraq, more equiptment into Iraq,

but do it for cheaper than Bush is doing it? Plus he wants to make

sure that more resources are committed to the real terror threat in

OBL. Where is that money going to come from? Just on a pure

mathematical basis, talking about adding 25% more troops should add at

least 25% more costs right? Plus an add on for all of the extra stuff

that our troops don't have now, which means even without the new

equiptment for the exsisting troops we would have spent an extra $50

billion, above the $200 billion Bush has spent, in Iraq. But $200

billion is too much?

 

The other part that really got to me was the NK nuclear references.

Who built the nuclear facilities in NK? Hint it wasn't a Republican

President. I have heard many leftists suggest that since Reagan is

the one who sold WMDs to Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war that somehow

the republicans were responsible for essentially giving a monkey a

gun. So if Bill Clinton essentially gave NK nuclear capabilities,

aren't the democrats responsible for arming the monkey in this case?

Seems to me that would be the logical conclusion.

 

I definately think Kerry won the sound bite battle. He did an

excellent job of getting his little snippets out there, which in the

21st century, is about the attention span he is catering too. But

damn, if anyone actually puts together what he said, it can be

destroyed. In his effort to be all things to all people, he really

said some stupid stuff.

 

I don't get it.

[Steff]

Nope i just hate people that belly up under presure and cant tell me what they are really thinking making his word worthless, bush may not have the best beliefs in stim cell research etc. but hey at least he hasnt flip flopped about it.

I normally don't do this... but I'm going to make an exception here..

 

 

President Bush: Flip-Flopper-In-Chief

 

 

From the beginning, George W. Bush has made his own credibility a central issue. On 10/11/00, then-Gov. Bush said: "I think credibility is important.It is going to be important for the president to be credible with Congress, important for the president to be credible with foreign nations." But President Bush's serial flip-flopping raises serious questions about whether Congress and foreign leaders can rely on what he says.

 

1. Social Security Surplus

 

BUSH PLEDGES NOT TO TOUCH SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS... "We're going to keep the promise of Social Security and keep the government from raiding the Social Security surplus." [President Bush, 3/3/01]

 

...BUSH SPENDS SOCIAL SECURITY SURPLUS The New York Times reported that "the president's new budget uses Social Security surpluses to pay for other programs every year through 2013, ultimately diverting more than $1.4 trillion in Social Security funds to other purposes." [The New York Times, 2/6/02]

 

2. Patient's Right to Sue

 

GOVERNOR BUSH VETOES PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "Despite his campaign rhetoric in favor of a patients' bill of rights, Bush fought such a bill tooth and nail as Texas governor, vetoing a bill coauthored by Republican state Rep. John Smithee in 1995. He... constantly opposed a patient's right to sue an HMO over coverage denied that resulted in adverse health effects." [salon, 2/7/01]

 

...CANDIDATE BUSH PRAISES TEXAS PATIENTS' RIGHT TO SUE... "We're one of the first states that said you can sue an HMO for denying you proper coverage... It's time for our nation to come together and do what's right for the people. And I think this is right for the people. You know, I support a national patients' bill of rights, Mr. Vice President. And I want all people covered. I don't want the law to supersede good law like we've got in Texas." [Governor Bush, 10/17/00]

 

...PRESIDENT BUSH'S ADMINISTRATION ARGUES AGAINST RIGHT TO SUE "To let two Texas consumers, Juan Davila and Ruby R. Calad, sue their managed-care companies for wrongful denials of medical benefits ‘would be to completely undermine' federal law regulating employee benefits, Assistant Solicitor General James A. Feldman said at oral argument March 23. Moreover, the administration's brief attacked the policy rationale for Texas's law, which is similar to statutes on the books in nine other states." [Washington Post, 4/5/04]

 

3. Tobacco Buyout

 

BUSH SUPPORTS CURRENT TOBACCO FARMERS' QUOTA SYSTEM... "They've got the quota system in place -- the allotment system -- and I don't think that needs to be changed." [President Bush, 5/04]

 

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION WILL SUPPORT FEDERAL BUYOUT OF TOBACCO QUOTAS "The administration is open to a buyout." [White House spokeswoman Jeanie Mamo, 6/18/04]

 

4. North Korea

 

BUSH WILL NOT OFFER NUCLEAR NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM... "We developed a bold approach under which, if the North addressed our long-standing concerns, the United States was prepared to take important steps that would have significantly improved the lives of the North Korean people. Now that North Korea's covert nuclear weapons program has come to light, we are unable to pursue this approach." [President's Statement, 11/15/02]

 

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFERS NORTH KOREA INCENTIVES TO DISARM"Well, we will work to take steps to ease their political and economic isolation. So there would be -- what you would see would be some provisional or temporary proposals that would only lead to lasting benefit after North Korea dismantles its nuclear programs. So there would be some provisional or temporary efforts of that nature." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 6/23/04]

 

5. Abortion

 

BUSH SUPPORTS A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE... "Bush said he...favors leaving up to a woman and her doctor the abortion question." [The Nation, 6/15/00, quoting the Lubbock Avalanche-Journal, 5/78]

 

...BUSH OPPOSES A WOMAN'S RIGHT TO CHOOSE "I am pro-life." [Governor Bush, 10/3/00]

 

6. OPEC

 

BUSH PROMISES TO FORCE OPEC TO LOWER PRICES... "What I think the president ought to do [when gas prices spike] is he ought to get on the phone with the OPEC cartel and say we expect you to open your spigots...And the president of the United States must jawbone OPEC members to lower the price." [President Bush, 1/26/00]

 

...BUSH REFUSES TO LOBBY OPEC LEADERS With gas prices soaring in the United States at the beginning of 2004, the Miami Herald reported the president refused to "personally lobby oil cartel leaders to change their minds." [Miami Herald, 4/1/04]

 

7. Iraq Funding

 

BUSH SPOKESMAN DENIES NEED FOR ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR THE REST OF 2004... "We do not anticipate requesting supplemental funding for '04" [White House Budget Director Joshua Bolton, 2/2/04]

 

...BUSH REQUESTS ADDITIONAL FUNDS FOR IRAQ FOR 2004 "I am requesting that Congress establish a $25 billion contingency reserve fund for the coming fiscal year to meet all commitments to our troops." [President Bush, Statement by President, 5/5/04]

 

8. Condoleeza Rice Testimony

 

BUSH SPOKESMAN SAYS RICE WON'T TESTIFY AS 'A MATTER OF PRINCIPLE'... "Again, this is not her personal preference; this goes back to a matter of principle. There is a separation of powers issue involved here. Historically, White House staffers do not testify before legislative bodies. So it's a matter of principle, not a matter of preference." [White House Press Secretary Scott McClellan, 3/9/04]

 

...BUSH ORDERS RICE TO TESTIFY: "Today I have informed the Commission on Terrorist Attacks Against the United States that my National Security Advisor, Dr. Condoleezza Rice, will provide public testimony." [President Bush, 3/30/04]

 

9. Science

 

BUSH PLEDGES TO ISSUE REGULATIONS BASED ON SCIENCE..."I think we ought to have high standards set by agencies that rely upon science, not by what may feel good or what sounds good." [then-Governor George W. Bush, 1/15/00]

 

...BUSH ADMINISTRATION REGULATIONS IGNORE SCIENCE "60 leading scientists—including Nobel laureates, leading medical experts, former federal agency directors and university chairs and presidents—issued a statement calling for regulatory and legislative action to restore scientific integrity to federal policymaking. According to the scientists, the Bush administration has, among other abuses, suppressed and distorted scientific analysis from federal agencies, and taken actions that have undermined the quality of scientific advisory panels." [union of Concerned Scientists, 2/18/04]

 

10. Ahmed Chalabi

 

BUSH INVITES CHALABI TO STATE OF THE UNION ADDRESS...President Bush also met with Chalabi during his brief trip to Iraq last Thanksgiving [White House Documents 1/20/04, 11/27/03]

 

...BUSH MILITARY ASSISTS IN RAID OF CHALABI'S HOUSE "U.S. soldiers raided the home of America's one-time ally Ahmad Chalabi on Thursday and seized documents and computers." [Washington Post, 5/20/04]

 

11. Department of Homeland Security

 

BUSH OPPOSES THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY..."So, creating a Cabinet office doesn't solve the problem. You still will have agencies within the federal government that have to be coordinated. So the answer is that creating a Cabinet post doesn't solve anything." [White House spokesman Ari Fleischer, 3/19/02]

 

...BUSH SUPPORTS THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY "So tonight, I ask the Congress to join me in creating a single, permanent department with an overriding and urgent mission: securing the homeland of America and protecting the American people." [President Bush, Address to the Nation, 6/6/02]

 

12. Weapons of Mass Destruction

 

BUSH SAYS WE FOUND THE WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION..."We found the weapons of mass destruction. We found biological laboratories...for those who say we haven't found the banned manufacturing devices or banned weapons, they're wrong, we found them." [President Bush, Interview in Poland, 5/29/03]

 

...BUSH SAYS WE HAVEN'T FOUND WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION "David Kay has found the capacity to produce weapons.And when David Kay goes in and says we haven't found stockpiles yet, and there's theories as to where the weapons went. They could have been destroyed during the war. Saddam and his henchmen could have destroyed them as we entered into Iraq. They could be hidden. They could have been transported to another country, and we'll find out." [President Bush, Meet the Press, 2/7/04]

 

13. Free Trade

 

BUSH SUPPORTS FREE TRADE... "I believe strongly that if we promote trade, and when we promote trade, it will help workers on both sides of this issue." [President Bush in Peru, 3/23/02]

 

...BUSH SUPPORTS RESTRICTIONS ON TRADE "In a decision largely driven by his political advisers, President Bush set aside his free-trade principles last year and imposed heavy tariffs on imported steel to help out struggling mills in Pennsylvania and West Virginia, two states crucial for his reelection." [Washington Post, 9/19/03]

 

14. Osama Bin Laden

 

BUSH WANTS OSAMA DEAD OR ALIVE... "I want justice. And there's an old poster out West, I recall, that says, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive.'" [President Bush, on Osama Bin Laden, 09/17/01]

 

...BUSH DOESN'T CARE ABOUT OSAMA "I don't know where he is.You know, I just don't spend that much time on him... I truly am not that concerned about him."[President Bush, Press Conference, 3/13/02]

 

15. The Environment

 

BUSH SUPPORTS MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE... "[if elected], Governor Bush will work to...establish mandatory reduction targets for emissions of four main pollutants: sulfur dioxide, nitrogen oxide, mercury and carbon dioxide." [bush Environmental Plan, 9/29/00]

 

...BUSH OPPOSES MANDATORY CAPS ON CARBON DIOXIDE "I do not believe, however, that the government should impose on power plants mandatory emissions reductions for carbon dioxide, which is not a 'pollutant' under the Clean Air Act." [President Bush, Letter to Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), 3/13/03]

 

16. WMD Commission

 

BUSH RESISTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE... "The White House immediately turned aside the calls from Kay and many Democrats for an immediate outside investigation, seeking to head off any new wide-ranging election-year inquiry that might go beyond reports already being assembled by congressional committees and the Central Intelligence Agency." [NY Times, 1/29/04]

 

...BUSH SUPPORTS AN OUTSIDE INVESTIGATION ON WMD INTELLIGENCE FAILURE "Today, by executive order, I am creating an independent commission, chaired by Governor and former Senator Chuck Robb, Judge Laurence Silberman, to look at American intelligence capabilities, especially our intelligence about weapons of mass destruction." [President Bush, 2/6/04]

 

17. Creation of the 9/11 Commission

 

BUSH OPPOSES CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush took a few minutes during his trip to Europe Thursday to voice his opposition to establishing a special commission to probe how the government dealt with terror warnings before Sept. 11." [CBS News, 5/23/02]

 

...BUSH SUPPORTS CREATION OF INDEPENDENT 9/11 COMMISSION "President Bush said today he now supports establishing an independent commission to investigate the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks." [ABC News, 09/20/02]

 

18. Time Extension for 9/11 Commission

 

BUSH OPPOSES TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION... "President Bush and House Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) have decided to oppose granting more time to an independent commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks." [Washington Post, 1/19/04]

 

...BUSH SUPPORTS TIME EXTENSION FOR 9/11 COMMISSION "The White House announced Wednesday its support for a request from the commission investigating the September 11, 2001 attacks for more time to complete its work." [CNN, 2/4/04]

 

19. One Hour Limit for 9/11 Commission Testimony

 

BUSH LIMITS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF 9/11 COMMISSION TO ONE HOUR... "President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney have placed strict limits on the private interviews they will grant to the federal commission investigating the Sept. 11 attacks, saying that they will meet only with the panel's top two officials and that Mr. Bush will submit to only a single hour of questioning, commission members said Wednesday." [NY Times, 2/26/04]

 

...BUSH SETS NO TIMELIMIT FOR TESTIMONY "The president's going to answer all of the questions they want to raise. Nobody's watching the clock." [White House spokesman Scott McClellan, 3/10/04]

 

20. Gay Marriage

 

BUSH SAYS GAY MARRIAGE IS A STATE ISSUE... "The state can do what they want to do. Don't try to trap me in this state's issue like you're trying to get me into." [Gov. George W. Bush on Gay Marriage, Larry King Live, 2/15/00]

 

...BUSH SUPPORTS CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT BANNING GAY MARRIAGE "Today I call upon the Congress to promptly pass, and to send to the states for ratification, an amendment to our Constitution defining and protecting marriage as a union of man and woman as husband and wife." [President Bush, 2/24/04]

 

21. Nation Building

 

BUSH OPPOSES NATION BUILDING... "If we don't stop extending our troops all around the world in nation-building missions, then we're going to have a serious problem coming down the road." [Gov. George W. Bush, 10/3/00]

 

...BUSH SUPPORTS NATION BUILDING "We will be changing the regime of Iraq, for the good of the Iraqi people." [President Bush, 3/6/03]

 

22. Saddam/al Qaeda Link

 

BUSH SAYS IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEEN AL QAEDA AND SADDAM... "You can't distinguish between al Qaeda and Saddam when you talk about the war on terror." [President Bush, 9/25/02]

 

...BUSH SAYS SADDAM HAD NO ROLE IN AL QAEDA PLOT "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved in Sept. 11." [President Bush, 9/17/03]

 

23. U.N. Resolution

 

BUSH VOWS TO HAVE A UN VOTE NO MATTER WHAT... "No matter what the whip count is, we're calling for the vote. We want to see people stand up and say what their opinion is about Saddam Hussein and the utility of the United Nations Security Council. And so, you bet. It's time for people to show their cards, to let the world know where they stand when it comes to Saddam." [President Bush 3/6/03]

 

...BUSH WITHDRAWS REQUEST FOR VOTE "At a National Security Council meeting convened at the White House at 8:55 a.m., Bush finalized the decision to withdraw the resolution from consideration and prepared to deliver an address to the nation that had already been written." [Washington Post, 3/18/03]

 

24. Involvement in the Palestinian Conflict

 

BUSH OPPOSES SUMMITS... "Well, we've tried summits in the past, as you may remember. It wasn't all that long ago where a summit was called and nothing happened, and as a result we had significant intifada in the area." [President Bush, 04/05/02]

 

...BUSH SUPPORTS SUMMITS "If a meeting advances progress toward two states living side by side in peace, I will strongly consider such a meeting. I'm committed to working toward peace in the Middle East." [President Bush, 5/23/03]

 

25. Campaign Finance

 

BUSH OPPOSES MCCAIN-FEINGOLD... "George W. Bush opposes McCain-Feingold...as an infringement on free expression." [Washington Post, 3/28/2000]

 

...BUSH SIGNS MCCAIN-FEINGOLD INTO LAW "[T]his bill improves the current system of financing for Federal campaigns, and therefore I have signed it into law." [President Bush, at the McCain-Feingold signing ceremony, 03/27/02]

 

26. 527s

 

Bush opposes restrictions on 527s: "I also have reservations about the constitutionality of the broad ban on issue advertising [in McCain Feingold], which restrains the speech of a wide variety of groups on issues of public import." [President Bush, 3/27/02]

 

…Bush says 527s bad for system: "I don't think we ought to have 527s. I can't be more plain about it…I think they're bad for the system. That's why I signed the bill, McCain-Feingold." [President Bush, 8/23/04]

 

27. Medical Records

 

Bush says medical records must remain private: "I believe that we must protect…the right of every American to have confidence that his or her personal medical records will remain private." [President Bush, 4/12/01]

 

…Bush says patients' histories are not confidntial: The Justice Department…asserts that patients "no longer possess a reasonable expectation that their histories will remain completely confidential." [businessWeek, 4/30/04]

 

28. Timelines For Dictators

 

Bush sets timeline for Saddam: "If Iraq does not accept the terms within a week of passage or fails to disclose required information within 30 days, the resolution authorizes 'all necessary means' to force compliance--in other words, a military attack." [LA Times, 10/3/02]

 

…Bush says he's against timelines: "I don't think you give timelines to dictators." [President Bush, 8/27/04]

 

29. The Great Lakes

 

Bush wants to divert great lakes: "Even though experts say 'diverting any water from the Great Lakes region sets a bad precedent' Bush 'said he wants to talk to Canadian Prime Minister Jean Chrétien about piping water to parched states in the west and southwest.'– [AP, 7/19/01]

 

Bush says he'll never divert Great Lakes: "We've got to use our resources wisely, like water. It starts with keeping the Great Lakes water in the Great Lakes Basin...My position is clear: We're never going to allow diversion of Great Lakes water." [President Bush, 8/16/04]

 

30. Winning The War On Terror

 

Bush claims he can win the war on terror: "One of the interesting things people ask me, now that we're asking questions, is, can you ever win the war on terror? Of course, you can." [President Bush, 4/13/04]

 

…Bush says war on terror is unwinnable: "I don't think you can win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/30/04]

 

…Bush says he will win the war on terror: "Make no mistake about it, we are winning and we will win [the war on terror]." [President Bush, 8/31/04]

 

(From http://www.americanprogressaction.org/site...JcP7H&b=118263)

 

 

 

:rolly

[Steff]

Heinz is a loser who is lucky to have money thanks to Ketchup.

If not that, I would just wonder why the f*** Kerry bangs her.

Does being ignorant come easy to you, or do you have to work at it..?

[Texsox]

I believe he mentined two more division for the rest of the world, not Iraq and increasing the special forces. I strongly agree with the special forces. We cannot fight terrorists with conventional tactics.

 

I found the camera angles a bit annoying. I know they needed to compensate for the height difference but in the side by side Bush's podium was higher than kerry's and it began to look like Bush was at too high a table, like a little kid. I hope they correct it before debate 2.

Edited October 1, 2004 by Texsox

[Texsox]

Where is that money going to come from? 

From growth in the economy, where all the money comes from. I learned this from the GOP. Deficits are good. See the military always buys American. American business owners will make more money, hire more people who are no unemployed who will pay taxes. See it's the unemployed people today who will pay for it.

 

How is Bush paying for it now? He CUT taxes remember?

[southsider2k5]

From growth in the economy, where all the money comes from. I learned this from the GOP. Deficits are good. See the military always buys American. American business owners will make more money, hire more people who are no unemployed who will pay taxes. See it's the unemployed people today who will pay for it.

 

How is Bush paying for it now? He CUT taxes remember?

But John Kerry is telling us how bad the economy is, so he must be planning on doing it different right? He wouldn't continue the same failed policies, would he? So with his self-professed promise to cut spending somewhere else for every addition of spending he does, how is he going to add all of these troops and equiptment to the tune of at very least $50 billion, probably much more? What is he going to cut?

[southsider2k5]

I found the camera angles a bit annoying. I know they needed to compensate for the height difference but in the side by side Bush's podeum was higher than kerry's and it began to look like Bush was at too high a table, like a little kid. I hope they correct it before debate 2.

The camera work sucked. They need to get GWB a booster seat or something, because that split screen with the uneven podiums was annoying and distracting.

[Texsox]

But John Kerry is telling us how bad the economy is, so he must be planning on doing it different right?  He wouldn't continue the same failed policies, would he?  So with his self-professed promise to cut spending somewhere else for every addition of spending he does, how is he going to add all of these troops and equiptment to the tune of at very least $50 billion, probably much more?  What is he going to cut?

Are you arguing that we need to actually pay for this stuff?? Would you repeal the GOP tax cuts to help pay for the war?

 

And like a zillion candidates before him, he will promise to eliminate pork projects. :headshake

[southsider2k5]

Are you arguing that we need to actually pay for this stuff??  Would you repeal the GOP tax cuts to help pay for the war?

 

And like a zillion candidates before him, he will promise to eliminate pork projects.  :headshake

The tax cuts helped revive the economy, just ask Alan Greenspan. In his own words, the economy would not have recovered as quickly without them.

 

What does it matter what I would do? I am not running for President, John Kerry is. And I am curious how all of these seemingly contradictary items all fit together.

[Texsox]

The camera work sucked.  They need to get GWB a booster seat or something, because that split screen with the uneven podiums was annoying and distracting.

Actually IIRC both candidates wanted the cameras turned off on them while the other was speaking, but the networks refused. I am not certain which I prefer. Occassionaly I sneaked a peak at the other candidate for some reaction, but these guys are so well trained.

 

I see the GOP won the debate timer light rules debate. I found that distracting as well. I heard someone on hannity trying to start a controversy over it. The little stuff just annoys me.

[southsider2k5]

Actually IIRC both candidates wanted the cameras turned off on them while the other was speaking, but the networks refused. I am not certain which I prefer. Occassionaly I sneaked a peak at the other candidate for some reaction, but these guys are so well trained.

 

I see the GOP won the debate timer light rules debate. I found that distracting as well. I heard someone on hannity trying to start a controversy over it. The little stuff just annoys me.

I didn't like the lights either. I found myself paying attention to them too. You are right, the little things are annoying.

[mmmmmbeeer]

I strongly agree with the special forces. We cannot fight terrorists with conventional tactics.

This is an extremely important point that Kerry ignored last night, as do most anti-Iraq war types..... Kerry criticizes Bush for diverting troops from Afghanistan and sending them to Iraq. So does that mean that Kerry believes that 5 Army divisions sitting in Afghanistan on the lookout for 1 man is an efficient and effective us of the military? Wouldn't a reasonably sized special forces group accompanied by a small group of intelligence agents be MUCH more effective at sniffing out a single individual in a mountainous region? You cannot compare a manhunt to a war. They require entirely different strategies, different resources, and different mindsets. We had a larger force on the ground during the initial conflict, aka war. This was the proper strategy. After the Taliban was toppled, that conflict, or war, was complete. The war ended and gave way to a manhunt, which does not require 100,000 people. UBL would probably be thrilled if there were still 100.000 troops in Afghanistan...that much more bureaucracy, confusion, and chaos to ensure a cleaner escape.

[Texsox]

The tax cuts helped revive the economy, just ask Alan Greenspan.  In his own words, the economy would not have recovered as quickly without them.

 

What does it matter what I would do?  I am not running for President, John Kerry is.  And I am curious how all of these seemingly contradictary items all fit together.

I'm interested in your view because I like you

 

Well if it worked before, let's do it again, this time even bigger and better.

 

The economic recovery is a false one IMHO. Eventually we will have to face the deficits and pay them back. Just like heading out this weekend and maxing out a couple credit cards will increase the economy for those stores that you spent the money at and makes you feel better about the stuff. Sooner ot later the bill comes due.

 

I cannot believe I am saying this but I respect a tax and spend politician over a spend and refund politician. I always felt the GOP was smarter and stronger by fighting for balanced budgets. Now they love to give us stuff and tell us someone else will pay for it.

[CrimsonWeltall]

So either he is saying that he would have sent a whole bunch more

troops over to Afganistan, or that the troops levels in Iraq are too

high.  Which is it?

 

It's both. What I got out of it was that he would have kept a much larger % of US troops in Afghanistan finishing that job. At the same time he would have tried to get significant international support (like, actual troops) in Iraq. If other countries were doing more in Iraq, we wouldn't have to do as much.

 

So tell me how does he

plan to send two extra divisions into Iraq, more equiptment into Iraq,

but do it for cheaper than Bush is doing it?

 

I don't know WTF the 2 extra divisions thing was about, so I can't explain that, but if the international community was doing more of the work in Iraq, we wouldn't be spending as much.

 

So basically:

 

Now: Tons of Americans in Iraq, Tiny bit in Afghanistan, hardly any allies in either

Kerry wanted: Some Americans in Iraq, some in Afghanistan, lots of allies in both (where: tiny bit

 

This, of course, assumes that other countries even wanted to help or that John Kerry could have gotten them too. But, that might just make Kerry's position unrealistic, not inconsistant.

 

The other part that really got to me was the NK nuclear references.

Who built the nuclear facilities in NK?  Hint it wasn't a Republican

President.

 

So is John Kerry responsible for any actions of Clinton, Carter, FDR, and every other Democratic president?

[Texsox]

I didn't like the lights either.  I found myself paying attention to them too.  You are right, the little things are annoying.

The story from the Bush camp is Kerry in previous debates would go over the alloted time over and over again. The candidates agreed to the timer lights, then Kerry flip flopped on the lights and tried getting them removed.

 

I am beginning to think that somewhere in America someone switches to Bounty laundry detergent and a ripple starts that results in who we elect as president.

[southsider2k5]

So is John Kerry responsible for any actions of Clinton, Carter, FDR, and every other Democratic president?

 

That is exactly what I am asking. Why is GWB responsible for Saddam using WMDs because Reagan sold them to him? I have seen the analogy that it is our fault because we gave it to him. So why doesn't the same analogy apply here?

 

It's both. What I got out of it was that he would have kept a much larger % of US troops in Afghanistan finishing that job. At the same time he would have tried to get significant international support (like, actual troops) in Iraq. If other countries were doing more in Iraq, we wouldn't have to do as much.

 

So basically:

 

Now: Tons of Americans in Iraq, Tiny bit in Afghanistan, hardly any allies in either

Kerry wanted: Some Americans in Iraq, some in Afghanistan, lots of allies in both (where: tiny bit

 

This, of course, assumes that other countries even wanted to help or that John Kerry could have gotten them too. But, that might just make Kerry's position unrealistic, not inconsistant.

 

He didn't say that last night. Go back and read the transcript. He mentioned that WE needed two more divisions as recommended by one of the generals (I forget which one now). There was no mention of the UN or another country supplying those troops. Heck Germany and France are already on record as saying they won't send troops even if Kerry is Pres, so it isn't them that would help us. We know Russia won't send troops, as they have their own problems. Italy has already sent troops, Japan can't send troops. Basically the only country that could send any amount of troops would be Germany as far as I can figure. Do they have two spare divisions laying around? I doubt it. He could have only been referring to our troops going over at this point.

 

And I still want to know how he can criticize Bush for $200 billion spent there, but only offer more troops and more equiptment (ergo more money) to remedy the situation, and that not be inconsistant?

[Queen Prawn]

And like a zillion candidates before him, he will promise to eliminate pork projects.  :headshake

 

 

You got a problem with pork projects?!

[Texsox]

What I heard directly was wanting 2 new Army divisions for the rest of the world and doubling special forces. I thought it was interesting he said Army, I would have thought Marines would be smarter, but my who does what amongst out military is cloudy at best.

[hi8is]

In the opening few minutes of the debate, president bush looked like a rag doll that the mike tyson of years past was having his way with. kerry was striaght to the point, eloquent while speaking, and presented an image of strength/confidance. however, bush struggled for words, had weak points, and looked to be falling on his ass flat... and fast

 

i was shocked to see the president turn the debate around... after those first 5 minutes he did get back up and make some decent claims (how ever truthful they were can be decided by you)

 

all said and done, if you say that bush won this debate, i dont understand anything about the way you think politicaly.

 

at best for bush, it was a tie

 

but it was pretty clear that kerry had the edge on bush today

 

i look for a great round 2 in which bush steps it up a bit

[CrimsonWeltall]

Why is GWB responsible for Saddam using WMDs because Reagan sold them to him? I have seen the analogy that it is our fault because we gave it to him. So why doesn't the same analogy apply here?

 

GWB isn't responsible for Reagan, and no one says he is. When people bring up that we gave Saddam WMD, it's usually either a) a low blow jab to republicans in general, not Bush specifically (haw haw look what your party did done) or B) some kind of comment about f***ing around in the middle east to much and trying to install governments.

 

He mentioned that WE needed two more divisions as recommended by one of the generals (I forget which one now).

 

Yes, because we were -largely- going it alone. If other countries had been supplying troops, then we wouldn't be overextended and needing extra divisions.

 

But now that we are overextended, he wants to add 2 divisions.

 

There was no mention of the UN or another country supplying those troops.

 

When he kept saying "we're supplying 90% of the troops and 90% of the cost", it was pretty obvious he thought other countries should be doing more than 10%.

 

And I still want to know how he can criticize Bush for $200 billion spent there, but only offer more troops and more equiptment (ergo more money) to remedy the situation, and that not be inconsistant?

 

He doesn't think 200 billion had to be spent their just by us. But now that the mess has been made, more money will have to be spent.

[Texsox]

Who won the debate? I can tell you this. It wasn't the American Public. Now, more than ever, I believe this is the worst choices we've had.

[hi8is]

i think that the whole f***ing process is a joke, do you want the puppet on the left, or the puppet on the right

 

someone like thomas jefferson or something once said that if a peoples government isnt working, its their responcablity to over throw it

 

this system sure dosent seem to be the best to me, time to evolve and f*** the system

 

sure it wont happen thou, sorry.. time for me to go back to sleep

[southsider2k5]

GWB isn't responsible for Reagan, and no one says he is. When people bring up that we gave Saddam WMD, it's usually either a) a low blow jab to republicans in general, not Bush specifically (haw haw look what your party did done) or  some kind of comment about f***ing around in the middle east to much and trying to install governments.

 

So we are definately in agreement there... I guess my question on that applies to other people then.

 

When he kept saying "we're supplying 90% of the troops and 90% of the cost", it was pretty obvious he thought other countries should be doing more than 10%.

 

He can say it all he wants, that doesn't make it happen. And it won't happen. He is a liar if he saids he can make it happen because there isn't anyone else to supply troops. The UN, France, and Germany have all said that they won't supply troops, even if Kerry is elected. I doubt Bush wants to be 90% of everything over there either.

 

Yes, because we were -largely- going it alone. If other countries had been supplying troops, then we wouldn't be overextended and needing extra divisions.

 

But now that we are overextended, he wants to add 2 divisions.

 

The general he quoted said that before the war started. Now John Kerry is saying it. Great to see his hindsite is still 20-20. But there still is the matter of paying for what Kerry is looking to add. He didn't exactly mention or explain that part, as he almost simultainiously ripped Bush for spending too much money.