baggio202 Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 its policy of all american media not to show faces or names of those dead or captured until all next of kin have been notified..after that has been acomplished it will be interesting to see who will run it and who wont...i found it interesting the BBC wasnt running it either.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 cw, isn't the difference that we (the US media) has not been shown interviewing them? Or shown them bloodied? I also don't remember seeing Iraqi "POW's" scared s***less like the American's did. A senior law enforcement agent was recently quoted in the Wall Street Journal, upon news of the arrest of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, that "there's a reason why he isn't going to be near a place where he has Miranda rights or the equivalent. You go to some other country that'll let us pistol whip the guy." The US is violating international law. We can't be violating it and then somehow claim a higher moral ground when another nation does the same. They're both wrong in what they are doing, don't misconstrue my statement. I just get angered that we torture, harass, etc. prisoners and yet we can somehow claim a higher moral ground when other countries capture our prisoners. That's the thing, Steff, the US media isn't covering our "preventative detentions" that we have in undisclosed locations all over the United States. According to various human rights groups, many US citizens and foreigners have been picked up, held without lawyers, without the ability to contact their family, and without being charged of a crime (except the crime of being Middle Eastern) and held in detention because "Al Qaeda is a mosaic, so we need to figure out which parts are part of the mosaic." So, meanwhile they are letting people rot in detention cells. In court cases in NY, the ACLU discussed this with a judge who found these "preventative detentions" as "odious to democracy". Through the court, the ACLU was able to find out that many were being held in solitary confinement and in chains. Yet, this is humane treatment according to the Geneva protocol? I think not. Yes, what Iraq is doing is wrong too. They are both incredibly wrong on this issue of prisoner treatment and it sickens me. It sickens me even more that the US parading around like the innocent party when we do our fair share of harsh prisoner care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 cw, isn't the difference that we (the US media) has not been shown interviewing them? Or shown them bloodied? I also don't remember seeing Iraqi "POW's" scared s***less like the American's did. A senior law enforcement agent was recently quoted in the Wall Street Journal, upon news of the arrest of Khalid Shaikh Mohammed, that "there's a reason why he isn't going to be near a place where he has Miranda rights or the equivalent. You go to some other country that'll let us pistol whip the guy." The US is violating international law. We can't be violating it and then somehow claim a higher moral ground when another nation does the same. They're both wrong in what they are doing, don't misconstrue my statement. I just get angered that we torture, harass, etc. prisoners and yet we can somehow claim a higher moral ground when other countries capture our prisoners. That's the thing, Steff, the US media isn't covering our "preventative detentions" that we have in undisclosed locations all over the United States. According to various human rights groups, many US citizens and foreigners have been picked up, held without lawyers, without the ability to contact their family, and without being charged of a crime (except the crime of being Middle Eastern) and held in detention because "Al Qaeda is a mosaic, so we need to figure out which parts are part of the mosaic." So, meanwhile they are letting people rot in detention cells. In court cases in NY, the ACLU discussed this with a judge who found these "preventative detentions" as "odious to democracy". Through the court, the ACLU was able to find out that many were being held in solitary confinement and in chains. Yet, this is humane treatment according to the Geneva protocol? I think not. Yes, what Iraq is doing is wrong too. They are both incredibly wrong on this issue of prisoner treatment and it sickens me. It sickens me even more that the US parading around like the innocent party when we do our fair share of harsh prisoner care. im not saying i agree with how we are going about getting our information out of al-qaeda or arab american living here , but neither group falls in the catagory of "prisoner of war" so i dont believe they qualify for protection under the geneva convention..... our detention of al qaeda "soldiers" need to be taken up in a different forum..and they have been...the human right commission of the UN has the US on its list of investigations for its treatment of al-qaeda...al-qaeda terrorists do not qualify as soldiers of war...so you are comparing apples and oranges..its like saying because rodney king got beat by the LAPD we shouldnt complain about how iraq treats our prisoners... the prisoner of war question has to do with iraqi soldiers and their treatment by US and the US soldiers and their treatment by the iraqis....the iraqis were in violation of the geneva convention imo because the iraqi government made a tape of prisoners and put them on public display..plus some of those soldiers needed medical attention and the geneva convention says they must get that immediately..that wasnt happening the US has pretty much followed the rules of war...there has been pictures of iraqi soldier on tv and iraq is claiming thats a violation too..but those are by independant news agencies..that was not a film produced by our government for propaganda purposes.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LowerCaseRepublican Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Baggs, the Al Qaeda "preventative detentions" is just different semantics for "war criminals" so we can get out of having to abide by the human rights conventions. Follow my logic. There is a war on terror. They have been captured and are our prisoners. Doesn't that make them prisoners of war? (Bush and Co. are just using semantics because Al Qaeda is not a sovereign nation.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Baggs, the Al Qaeda "preventative detentions" is just different semantics for "war criminals" so we can get out of having to abide by the human rights conventions. Follow my logic. There is a war on terror. They have been captured and are our prisoners. Doesn't that make them prisoners of war? (Bush and Co. are just using semantics because Al Qaeda is not a sovereign nation.) well , im getting my info from tony blair , so if im wrong blame him ..but in his house of commons Q&A...he was asked about wasnt america being hypocritical in saying iraq was in violation of the geneva convention because of their treastment of al-qaeda "soldiers" at gitmo... tony blair's reply was al-qaeda do not qualify as prisoners of war nor for protection under the geneva convention because they are not soldiers of a recognized nation...that al-qaeda was not a governemnt... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baggio202 Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Baggs, the Al Qaeda "preventative detentions" is just different semantics for "war criminals" so we can get out of having to abide by the human rights conventions. Follow my logic. There is a war on terror. They have been captured and are our prisoners. Doesn't that make them prisoners of war? (Bush and Co. are just using semantics because Al Qaeda is not a sovereign nation.) now i understand you point too..if we call it a "WAR" on terror then maybe we should treat them as POW's and follow geneva conventions since we called it a war...it would be more consistent with the belief that it is a war im just saying legally , if tony blair is right , then that needs to be taken up in the UN as human rights violation and should not be used to defend iraqi treatment of our soldiers... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Hey cw, I hope youre happier today. Thanks for showing that link, yet Id rather not look at it out of respect for the dead. And since most of the people in Iraq dont know how to fight like men, terrorism and execution of POWs is just the way to go. And on the whole idea of this no longer being a walk in the park, heres how I prefer to think about it. Weve had like 20 dead (most at out own failures) a handful wounded and 12 taken prisoner. The Iraqis have lost 62 soldiers to death in the last 24 hours. Each death is a terrible tragedy, but compared to them, our loss is rather insignificant. Unless of course you know the person, then the numbers really dont matter... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Each death is a terrible tragedy, but compared to them, our loss is rather insignificant. Unless of course you know the person, then the numbers really dont matter... You are a stupid f***ing idiot!! :fyou Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 a clip from a law list I am on (none of these are my words, I just cut and paste, but how interesting a perspective): "All the American tv networks have refused to show this Iraq video even though it is available to the rest of the world on Al-Jazeera and many European stations. CBC television showed most of the footage. You can see it at the following site: http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/03/23/priso...ers_video030323 Just click on the little video camera at the end of the story. It shows the whole CBC news segment CW.. for some reason there is no little camera at the end of the article now. Think they removed it..? If you click the link is it still there..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 I couldn't find it either Steff. They must of removed it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bjmarte Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Me either Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 Me either Oh good. I thought it was maybe the irritating firewall at work that wasn't allowing me to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwsox Posted March 24, 2003 Share Posted March 24, 2003 I have been away from the desk and just got back and saw the note the camera was missing - I actually didn't look at anything myself, just posted the post I got off a law list. I am sorry if it wasn't as promised - maybe it was removed or something. Just one comment - one reason, one of many reasons, that I wished toi ehll that we had given all al Queda and Afghan prisoners the status of POW was, as we said at the time, it would be our enlisted personnel who would pay the price - it is not too hard to look ahead to have seen that our enlisted people were at far greater risk because we did not give POW status to those we captured - semantics about being "enemy combatants" or POWs is bulls*** when you know our enlisted people would pay the price of revenge, a price not borne by the adminsitartion that was making up bulls*** distinctions that you damn well knew others will not see when the time came. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Each death is a terrible tragedy, but compared to them, our loss is rather insignificant. Unless of course you know the person, then the numbers really dont matter... You are a stupid f***ing idiot!! :fyou Dude, chill out. I didnt mean to offend you... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Each death is a terrible tragedy, but compared to them, our loss is rather insignificant. Unless of course you know the person, then the numbers really dont matter... You are a stupid f***ing idiot!! :fyou Dude, chill out. I didnt mean to offend you... "Dude"... You're more of an idiot than I thought. Do us all a favor and shut up about things you know very little about. That should keep things civil here for at least 4 or 5 years.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Steff, Roman is a 15 year old kid. He seems to be a good kid from the posts I've seen him make. He sometimes has had some misguided opinions, but he has shown a tendency to listen and learn from the older & supposedly wiser people in here. I've seen him change his tune several times after someone has logically pointed out to him why his opinion was flawed. Please, try that approach in the future as he just might benefit from your wisdom. And please, do not take this as a criticism of you, just a suggestion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Steff, Roman is a 15 year old kid. He seems to be a good kid from the posts I've seen him make. He sometimes has had some misguided opinions, but he has shown a tendency to listen and learn from the older & supposedly wiser people in here. I've seen him change his tune several times after someone has logically pointed out to him why his opinion was flawed. Please, try that approach in the future as he just might benefit from your wisdom. And please, do not take this as a criticism of you, just a suggestion. YASNY, with all due respect to you.. I've seen many of his rants. The ones of late in regards to the war have been downright ignorant. This last comment was over the top. The disrespect might not have been directly directed to me.. but it was a blatent slap in the face to ALL who have family serving in the forces. EVERY life, Iraqi and American, lost is a terrible tragedy. It's not about "wooo hoo, we killed more of theirs!!". And his comment that we've lost less so that's OK, and unless we are personally effected "it doesn't really matter". Tell that the the families of the POW's plastered all over the tv. He's a moron on this issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 Steff, Roman is a 15 year old kid. He seems to be a good kid from the posts I've seen him make. He sometimes has had some misguided opinions, but he has shown a tendency to listen and learn from the older & supposedly wiser people in here. I've seen him change his tune several times after someone has logically pointed out to him why his opinion was flawed. Please, try that approach in the future as he just might benefit from your wisdom. And please, do not take this as a criticism of you, just a suggestion. YASNY, with all due respect to you.. I've seen many of his rants. The ones of late in regards to the war have been downright ignorant. This last comment was over the top. The disrespect might not have been directly directed to me.. but it was a blatent slap in the face to ALL who have family serving in the forces. EVERY life, Iraqi and American, lost is a terrible tragedy. It's not about "wooo hoo, we killed more of theirs!!". And his comment that we've lost less so that's OK, and unless we are personally effected "it doesn't really matter". Tell that the the families of the POW's plastered all over the tv. He's a moron on this issue. I agree Steph, I'm just saying he has been receptive to more enlightened points of view in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 You arrogant French fool. Im gonna serve. I know people in Kuwait serving their country. Have you or will serve in our military? Do you know people in Kuwait? I wont come back on my promise to serve, Im gonna serve and Im gonna be there in the action. In the Gulf or wherever, Im gonna be there serving my country. Are you? And how old are you? Let me show a better example of my original point. In WWII America lost about 260,000 men. In Vietnam we lost 58,000 men. Here we lost 20 men. All these men are honorable. Those dying in Iraq are just as honorable as those who died in Nam and the Second World War. But my point is, and was the same in the post to which you object, that there are times and countries in history that have had it a whole lot worse than us. I hope you understand now you moron... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan420 Posted March 25, 2003 Share Posted March 25, 2003 You arrogant French fool. Im gonna serve. I know people in Kuwait serving their country. Have you or will serve in our military? Do you know people in Kuwait? I wont come back on my promise to serve, Im gonna serve and Im gonna be there in the action. In the Gulf or wherever, Im gonna be there serving my country. Are you? And how old are you? Let me show a better example of my original point. In WWII America lost about 260,000 men. In Vietnam we lost 58,000 men. Here we lost 20 men. All these men are honorable. Those dying in Iraq are just as honorable as those who died in Nam and the Second World War. But my point is, and was the same in the post to which you object, that there are times and countries in history that have had it a whole lot worse than us. I hope you understand now you moron... he is not saying it isnt a tragedy to lose even one life he is just saying the #'s that you guys are saying are huge are really small compared to past wars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Thank you man. Thats how I should have said it in the first place. Then we could have avoided this whole mess... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan420 Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 Thank you man. Thats how I should have said it in the first place. Then we could have avoided this whole mess... no problem, you just have to read things before you post them i have friends over there in the 101st air bourne. so i hate reading stuff about death. but the #'s are far less than wars in past so far less familys have to go though the dreadfull fealings of losing a loved one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 I know field doctors in Iraq. I hope all Americans come home safely. But first, we mustnt betray the people of Iraq and that means we must take out Saddam for good... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soxfan420 Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 I know field doctors in Iraq. I hope all Americans come home safely. But first, we mustnt betray the people of Iraq and that means we must take out Saddam for good... yup we leave now and half that country will be dead in a month from suddan punishing them. and thus making us loose the support of the iraqi people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soxplosion Posted March 26, 2003 Share Posted March 26, 2003 We will lose the support of all Arab people quite possibly. Theyre such hypocrytes. When we invade Iraq they detest us but then if we were to let so many Iraqis die they would also detest us. They cant play both sides. They need to pick a side. Side with Saddam when hes in power and when hes left in power to kill so many Iraqis or side with us when we tell the world we are going to take Saddam out and save the Iraqi people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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