What the A's and Cubs Have Taught Me...

[3E8]

Dude...all of those teams had good bullpens other than Florida and Arizona.  Especially all of those Yankees teams...I got names like Rivera, Mendoza, Stanton, and Nelson on my dome right about now.

 

Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Just because you say something doesn't make it so. You keep harping to us that we need to back up our statements, but you just throw opinions out. Nothing backed up at all.

 

On those Yankee teams, Mariano Rivera is a given. He's amazing. But not one pitcher does a great bullpen make.

 

Mendoza's World Series ERA's were 10.80 and 9.00 with the Yankees. He only had one good regular season by the way.

 

Nelson's regular season ERA during those few years averaged in the high 3's. Certainly good, not that great.

 

Stanton's regular season ERA's were 4.10, 4.38, 5.47 in his stint with the Yankees.

 

Maybe the reason we can't agree on this point is that we have different views of what a 'great' bullpen is. I think a great bullpen is actually a rarity. Not too many teams have them in my opinion. Even the World Series champions.

[hammerhead johnson]

Just because you say something doesn't make it so.  You keep harping to us that we need to back up our statements, but you just throw opinions out.  Nothing backed up at all.

 

On those Yankee teams, Mariano Rivera is a given.  He's amazing.  But not one pitcher does a great bullpen make. 

 

Mendoza's World Series ERA's were 10.80 and 9.00 with the Yankees.  He only had one good regular season by the way.

 

Nelson's regular season ERA during those few years averaged in the high 3's.  Certainly good, not that great.

 

Stanton's regular season ERA's were 4.10, 4.38, 5.47 in his stint with the Yankees.

 

Maybe the reason we can't agree on this point is that we have different views of what a 'great' bullpen is.  I think a great bullpen is actually a rarity.  Not too many teams have them in my opinion.  Even the World Series champions.

I think that everyone on here other than a select few would agree that Rivera/Mendoza/Stanton/Nelson was a damn good bullpen.

 

By now, after doing a little research, you have to recognize that what I've been saying all along in this thread is the absolute truth...no bullpen, no glory. And you have to recognize that there are exceptions to everything in life, but a bullpen is a pertinent part of the championship plan, is it not?

[hammerhead johnson]

well all you asked for 1 and we gave you 2 arizona and the marlins and both were recent... and then calling me dumb because i answered your question, maybe you need to root for the other chicago team 

What are we talking about here? Flash in the pan type philosophies, or dynasty type philosophies?

 

How are you going to build a consistent winer without a strong bullepn?

 

You're basing your argument on exceptions now when the general rule is that you need a strong bullpen to win a title.

 

Allow me to reiterate:

 

IN THE VAST MAJORITY OF CASES, YOUR WORLD SERIES WINNERS HAD STRONG BULLPENS

 

What does this mean to you?

 

A Sox fan knows the importance of a good bullpen...a Cubs fan will try to say "Well, you don't necessarly need one because look at Florida and Arizona!"

 

They're Harvard material, the entire lot of 'em.

[hammerhead johnson]

Maybe the reason we can't agree on this point is that we have different views of what a 'great' bullpen is.  I think a great bullpen is actually a rarity.  Not too many teams have them in my opinion.  Even the World Series champions.

By the way, I never said the word "Great".

 

I said you need to have a bullpen, as opposed to not having one. If you have a bullpen, then by definitiion, it is good, or solid, possibly damn good, or whatever other comparable adjectives I've been using.

 

Great bullpens...that's an entirely different topic. That's the 2002 Anaheim Angels or the 1990 Reds. I agree that they're rare, especially in a 30 team league where there are not enough good relievers to go around.

[GreenSox]

I think you need both.

 

I will point out that the Astros, who MADE the playoffs, had far more devastating starting pitching injuries than either the cubs or Oakland- lost 2/4 top starters for most of the year, including the stretch.

 

I will also point out that if Oakland's pen is anchored by Dotel, and if they actually had to trade for that piece of crap in midseason, it points out major pen problems.

[jackie hayes]

I will also point out that if Oakland's pen is anchored by Dotel, and if they actually had to trade for that piece of crap in midseason, it points out major pen problems.

It seems as though the Moneyball gms have put a bit more stock in having a good bullpen, maybe b/c of the fiasco in Boston last year. Oakland took Huston Street in the comp round of the draft this year (? -- I think, but maybe it was the second round). Which seems strange after the reaction to the Sox taking Ring in the first round.

[CWSGuy406]

Just wondering - can someone name me one guy in the Cubs bullpen who is reliable as say a Keith Foulke, a Mariano Rivera, a Brad Lidge? Hell, even a Tom Gordon - someone you can rely on nine times out of ten? Because there isn't really anyone down there who is that reliable. If they had one of those guys, right now we'd probably be dreading another Cubby post season appearance...

[jackie hayes]

Just wondering - can someone name me one guy in the Cubs bullpen who is reliable as say a Keith Foulke, a Mariano Rivera, a Brad Lidge?  Hell, even a Tom Gordon - someone you can rely on nine times out of ten?  Because there isn't really anyone down there who is that reliable.  If they had one of those guys, right now we'd probably be dreading another Cubby post season appearance...

Oh, oh, I know! Juan Cruz!

[3E8]

By the way, I never said the word "Great".

 

I said you need to have a bullpen, as opposed to not having one.  If you have a bullpen, then by definitiion, it is good, or solid, possibly damn good, or whatever other comparable adjectives I've been using.

 

Great bullpens...that's an entirely different topic.  That's the 2002 Anaheim Angels or the 1990 Reds.  I agree that they're rare, especially in a 30 team league where there are not enough good relievers to go around.

I think you just need one solid reliever, along with a couple decent ones. Not bad, decent. For instance, if the White Sox had a great starting rotation, they could win the world series with their current bullpen. I guess I just have a different definition of a what a good bullpen is.

[hammerhead johnson]

I think you just need one solid reliever, along with a couple decent ones.  Not bad, decent.  For instance, if the White Sox had a great starting rotation, they could win the world series with their current bullpen.  I guess I just have a different definition of a what a good bullpen is.

Only one solid reliever?

 

A good bullpen should have a minimum of four solid relievers. Just like CWSGuy406 said, we're halfway there with Marte and Shingo.

 

Take a look at the 1990 White Sox, for instance.

 

Barry Jones 11-4 2.31 ERA

Wayne Edwards 5-3 3.22 ERA

Donn Pall 3-5 3.32 ERA

Ken Patterson 2-1 3.39 ERA

Scott Radinsky 6-1 4.82 ERA

Bob Thigpen 4-6 1.83 ERA with 57 SAVES

 

In the grand scheme of things, these guys are a bunch of nobodies outside of Thigpen.

 

Just give me 4 solid relievers...I don't want to hear any excuses. One solid reliever and a couple of decent relievers could never get the job done -- you'd never even make the playoffs to begin with.

[qwerty]

Take a look at the 1990 White Sox, for instance.

 

Barry Jones 11-4 2.31 ERA

Wayne Edwards 5-3 3.22 ERA

Donn Pall 3-5 3.32 ERA

Ken Patterson 2-1 3.39 ERA

Scott Radinsky 6-1 4.82 ERA

Bob Thigpen 4-6 1.83 ERA with 57 SAVES

 

In the grand scheme of things, these guys are a bunch of nobodies outside of Thigpen. 

I sure wish we had a bunch of no bodies that put numbers up like that.

[hammerhead johnson]

I sure wish we had a bunch of no bodies that put numbers up like that.

Tell me about it. That's a kick ass bullpen if I ever saw one.

[GoodAsGould]

i think if diaz comes out of the pen next year he could put up an era in the 3's but i guess thats not something you should really rely on... personally id be really happy if we could get a guy like jorge julio he is young and i think he would be a great closer especially with shingo setting him up

[3E8]

Hammerhead, would you call the 2004 Marte solid?

[qwerty]

Tell me about it.  That's a kick ass bullpen if I ever saw one.

Actually i wouldn't say they were no bodies. They all had era's under 4.00 in their careers. I believe wayne edwards was suppose to be a big up and coming lefty but got injured after his third year in the league.

[qwerty]

Hammerhead, would you call the 2004 Marte solid?

I know you did not ask me, but find 10-15 lefty relief pitchers who did better than him this year. Won't be too easy. Also find 10 lefties reilief pitchers you can have faith in year in year out.

[hammerhead johnson]

i think if diaz comes out of the pen next year he could put up an era in the 3's but i guess thats not something you should really rely on... personally id be really happy if we could get a guy like jorge julio he is young and i think he would be a great closer especially with shingo setting him up

Perfect. Julio would make a superb set up man/emergency closer out of the pen. I would be overjoyed if we landed that guy.

 

On the other hand, Comiskey Park is an absolute nightmare for pitchers right now. Mark Buehrle's road ERA was 2.77...put him on another team and he's front cover material for Sports Weekly. Seriously.

 

Comiskey Park might be the worst park in all of baseball right now. Konerko's home vs. road numbers are downright disturbing. Do something about this s*** asap. Move the fences back, undo the wind tunnel changes, etc. Whatever it takes.

[ZoomSlowik]

I agree with you 100% Hammerhead, but you forgot a pretty big name from at least one of those Yankees pens. John Wettland was a major factor, IIRC he won a WS MVP award. Think about the teams that have won the World Series in recent history. Probably one of them had the best starting staff entering the playoffs, and you can debate that the Arizona staff wasn't even that good considering they relied so heavily on 2 guys. The A's haven't done squat, and the Cubs fell short the last two years. Take our beloved Sox in 93 as another example. I really think the dominant starter idea is overrated. Look at the best teams of all-time, and top starters are virtually absent. Whitey Ford is the only Yankee starter of note, and I wouldn't call him stellar. I can't name a single starter on the Big Red Machine, but I know half the lineup. Many of the best starters of all time are either ringless or have won 1 in their distinguished career. Guys like Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins, Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez all have either one or none to the best of my knowledge. In the end there are many routes to building a winning team, but since we don't have Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson and aren't going to find people like that on the market our best option is probably to stock our pen.

[YASNY]

I would call Marte's 2004 performance "acceptable". Not the Marte we are used to, but not bad. I hope this season was an aberration and he returns to form in '05.

[3E8]

I know you did not ask me, but find 10-15 lefty relief pitchers who did better than him this year. Won't be too easy. Also find 10 lefties reilief pitchers you can have faith in year in year out.

Your opinion is welcome. I just don't like the fact that he doesn't perform well in most pressure situation. Only 6 for 12 in save opportunities? How well would he handle postseason pressure?

[qwerty]

Perfect.  Julio would make a superb set up man/emergency closer out of the pen.  I would be overjoyed if we landed that guy. 

 

On the other hand, Comiskey Park is an absolute nightmare for pitchers right now.  Mark Buehrle's road ERA was 2.77...put him on another team and he's front cover material for Sports Weekly.  Seriously.

 

Comiskey Park might be the worst park in all of baseball right now.  Konerko's home vs. road numbers are downright disturbing.  Do something about this s*** asap.  Move the fences back, undo the wind tunnel changes, etc.  Whatever it takes.

They need to make this park huge. I know i would mind if the sox hit 700 doubles a year if it mean winning games.

[hammerhead johnson]

Hammerhead, would you call the 2004 Marte solid?

It's hard. I'm not going to lie to myself...he was pretty f***ing far from solid this year. He came into the year as one of the most highly touted left-handed relievers in the game. You're not gonna hear that type of talk going into next year.

 

But he's definitely capable of being an elite left-handed reliever in this league...he just has to get it together upstairs.

[qwerty]

I would call Marte's 2004 performance "acceptable".  Not the Marte we are used to, but not bad.  I hope this season was an aberration and he returns to form in '05.

Believe it or not i would take a bad marte season every year. Because for the most part lefty relievers get rocked. But i really think he will have a sub 3 era next year. His main problem was control issues this year. Another thing that is starting to concern me is that in the past three years his K/9 numbers have declined. But they are still excellent at 8.37

[hammerhead johnson]

I agree with you 100% Hammerhead, but you forgot a pretty big name from at least one of those Yankees pens. John Wettland was a major factor, IIRC he won a WS MVP award. Think about the teams that have won the World Series in recent history. Probably one of them had the best starting staff entering the playoffs, and you can debate that the Arizona staff wasn't even that good considering they relied so heavily on 2 guys. The A's haven't done squat, and the Cubs fell short the last two years. Take our beloved Sox in 93 as another example. I really think the dominant starter idea is overrated. Look at the best teams of all-time, and top starters are virtually absent. Whitey Ford is the only Yankee starter of note, and I wouldn't call him stellar. I can't name a single starter on the Big Red Machine, but I know half the lineup. Many of the best starters of all time are either ringless or have won 1 in their distinguished career. Guys like Steve Carlton, Fergie Jenkins, Walter Johnson, Roger Clemens, Nolan Ryan, Tom Seaver, Randy Johnson, Greg Maddux, Pedro Martinez all have either one or none to the best of my knowledge. In the end there are many routes to building a winning team, but since we don't have Sandy Koufax or Bob Gibson and aren't going to find people like that on the market our best option is probably to stock our pen.

John Wetteland...of course. He was there for the 96 title, and then he split for Texas right when the Yankees were getting started. 43 saves with a 2.83 ERA in his final year with the Yanks, plus a WS MVP award.

 

In retrospect, I can't believe that Steinbrenner didn't resign him. If they had, we could be talking about 4 straight championships for the Yankees from 96 to 99.

[qwerty]

It's hard.  I'm not going to lie to myself...he was pretty f***ing far from solid this year.  He came into the year as one of the most highly touted left-handed relievers in the game.  You're not gonna hear that type of talk going into next year.

 

But he's definitely capable of being an elite left-handed reliever in this league...he just has to get it together upstairs.

You get sporting new? Because in one issue that said he was the third best reliever in all of baseball behind mota and farnsworth of all people. In another issue the numbers they predicted for him were 79 innings, 12 saves, 6 blown saves, 2.27 era, 1.18 whip, and 90 strikeouts on the season.

 

What they said about him is this.

With a fastball in the mid 90's and pinpoint location, Marte has emerged as one o fthe top relievers in baseball. He saved double-digit games for the second consecutive season and limited opponents to a .185 average. Bottom line. A top set-up option, and he will get a shot at closing.