Crede coming back

[Gene Honda Civic]

I don't mind keeping Crede for a year, but what happens when he sucks again next season?

 

There will not be another FA class for 3B like the 04 for some time. If Crede is crediocre again, it's not just a sentence to watching him for the next season. It likely costs even more on the FA market to try and replace him after the 05 season.

 

KW's endorsement of Crede, marries his tenure as GM to the production of Crede, and if I was KW I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.

[Rex Hudler]

I don't mind keeping Crede for a year, but what happens when he sucks again next season?

 

There will not be another FA class for 3B like the 04 for some time.  If Crede is crediocre again, it's not just a sentence to watching him for the next season.  It likely costs even more on the FA market to try and replace him after the 05 season.

 

KW's endorsement of Crede, marries his tenure as GM to the production of Crede, and if I was KW I wouldn't feel comfortable with that.

If they have to go down that road, then so be it. If not a free agent, then they can make a trade. Perhaps Josh Fields will be ready by then.

 

There is no way I would go spend money on a free agent 3B this year, just because if Crede sucks again there isn't anybody as good the following year.

 

By the way, aside from Beltre, who we have already discussed, who are the available free agents in this year's stellar crop of 3B?

[Gene Honda Civic]

Glaus

Ramirez

Koskie

Lowell

[qwerty]

Crede deserves another shot IMO.

He's driven in some clutch runs and lets be realistic here he is our #7 hitter at most. I think he can bat at least .250 plus and I think thats enough to put us over the top.

I don't care if he hit .290 next year. He does not walk enough which is the reason his obp is so terrible.

[Guest JimH]

The advance scouting aspect comes from the White Sox recent inability to hit AA or AAA pitchers out of the IF until the 6th or 7th inning. A line-up of Frank Thomas, Maggs (when both were healthy), and Konerko et al are usually consistently aced by pitchers that have been shelled if they've pitched in the big leagues before facing the White Sox. If the White Sox are their first ML team faced, most of the time, they look unhittable and destined for ML success until they face a powerhouse like Toronto, Baltimore, KC, or Tampa Bay. Why did this happen in 2002 and 2003? Some have suggested and I agree that there is a flaw somewhere within the scouting system. How else are you able to explain Detroit in 2003 throwing scrub after scrub at the White Sox and beating the White Sox 1-0 while the Sox commonly have no problem creating scoring chances against the likes of Pedro Martinez, Curt Schilling, Roger Clemens, Mark Prior, etc.

 

Of course, scouting plays a huge part in which prospects the White Sox draft. Over the past 2 seasons, the Sox haven't had a 5th starter called up from the minor leagues that has been able to do diddly-squat on a consistent basis against ML teams but are as close to lights-out in whichever minor league class they were recently pitching in. Of course, it probably doesn't help matters that KW brings a guy up for one start then sends him back and, 5 days later, is calling up another prospect to try his hand at the 5th starter's role. Even the prospects KW has traded away for Everett and Alomar Jr. TWICE haven't done much since being called up by their new teams.

 

White Sox Scouting..... the best scouting JR's $$$ can buy  :puke

OK ... so it's basically your personal assessment vs. any definitive inside knowledge.

 

I agree with you they should look very very closely at scouting, and they should emulate what the Twins do and what Oakland does. Further, I believe they should take a long hard look at the minor league instructional people.

 

As for rookie starters on other teams giving the White Sox lineup fits, I also agree that's very frustrating. I happen to blame more of it on the players, because they are the ones consistently failing to execute. If you want to blame it on advance scouting, that's fine. I know it fits in with the whole "Reinsdorf is cheap" mantra.

 

One thing you should look at though ... look at all the draft picks the Sox consistently sign. I believe they signed 19 or their first 20 this year. Compare that to the Twins, or even a notoriously free spending team like Baltimore. I don't think White Sox ownership is cheap when it comes to scouting. I think it's fairer to say they don't spend their money on the right guys.

 

As for their drafting record, I have long said they need to do a better job. If you surveyed the other 29 teams, they would probably say their franchises need to do better as well (possible exceptions: Minnesota, Atlanta, Oakland).

 

Where the Sox should spend more money is on a thorough review of best practices in baseball. Find out what these other teams are doing, and do the same. The Sox actually have as many or more scouts, both fulltime and parttime on the payroll than most teams. And let's not forget they've kept their minor league staff together for a long time, which is hard to do. Reinsdorf pays his minor league people very well - the antithesis of "cheap".

 

It's not so much what they spend, it's how they spend it.

[dasox24]

I'm glad Crede's back. The Sox want to get better defensively, and if there's one thing you can't say about Crede, it's that he's been bad defensively. He's been very solid all year in the hot corner and there's no reason to think that he won't be again next year.

[qwerty]

I'm glad Crede's back.  The Sox want to get better defensively, and if there's one thing you can't say about Crede, it's that he's been bad defensively.  He's been very solid all year in the hot corner and there's no reason to think that he won't be again next year.

Koskie has been just as good defensively. Bet let's not upgrade it would just make sense.

[Guest JimH]

Personally, I think trading Crede is something they're considering, and it would not surprise me if they're gauging interest from other teams.

 

Sure, they'd prefer not to trade him at his age and presumed upside, but it all depends what you can get.

 

If they do deal Crede, the good news is there are a few "stop gap" 3B out there on the free agent market.

 

After the disappointing year, I believe they're looking at all options.

[whitesox61382]

My assessment of Crede is based on two things..... 1.) potential, and 2.) what I know about this Organization in regards to what the White Sox Organization sells to the fans as minor leaguers w/potential recently. Crede, Borchard, Garland, etc. were sold to Sox fans as minor leaguers w/huge potential. Crede was supposed to be the next Robin Ventura. Jon Garland was supposed to be the White Sox's next perennial Cy Young candidate. Joe Borchard was compared to, by some in certain circles, as the next Mickey Mantle. Sox fans have been sold the minor league "potential" line of BS because JR is too goddamn cheap to even attempt to acquire proven ML talent unless it involves a trade and/or the trade partner picking up a sizable portion of the tradee's salary in the recent past. After taking in "potential" I then move to number 2..... what I know of this Organization. I know for instance that our advance scouting sucks monkey nuts. I also know that, when push comes to shove, JR will put $$$ before a WS Championship in every circumstance. I then realize that a team like Seattle..... who until this season was a playoff contender for years..... passed on scraps like Borchard and Crede OR KW refused to part with the aforementioned because he sees "potential". The same KW that traded for Todd Ritchie and the same KW that traded Foulke for Koch etc (no need to rehash KW's shortcomings as GM). Then take Seattle's recent success and compare it to the Sox and there's no contest. I then take 1+2 and come to a conclusion that has, up to this point, been foolproof.

 

Crede..... Robin Ventura potential+2 years in the ML's with a <.250 avg and a penchant for always having to work from down in the count="no" significant changes joe crede>

 

Judy..... Sold to Sox fans as the second coming+almost 4 complete years of complete mediocrity= a .500 lifetime pitcher that is no better than a 4 or 5 on most ML teams.

 

Borchard..... the juries still out but damn..... I bet my formula ain't far off come 2006-2007 if he's even still with the team by that time.

 

This Organization needs an enema from top to bottom before things change for the better on the Southside of Chicago. My formula is far from scientific but you can book no significant changes in Joe Crede come 2005. But maybe he'll catch on fire in the second half  :rolly .     

I have already said that I am not a Crede fan, and I believe that the Sox should go a different route at 3rd next year. With that said, I have to disagree with you on a couple of issues.

 

Sure the organization tries to sell Sox prospects to the fans, but when independant sources such as BA, BP, scouts(from other teams), analysis, ect also rate the Sox prospects among the top in baseball, the question is, is the Sox organization just in trying to sell Sox prospects to the fans? Of course they are. They aren't saying that a 38th round pick who is hitting .220 in the minors is going to be the next Bonds. They are selling top prospects that are exceling in the minors. Predicting which prospects develop and which won't isn't an exact science and is very difficult. Besides, all organizations over-hype their own prospects, so holding that against the Sox as if they were alone in doing this is just plain stupid.

 

I don't want to go in depth about financial issues involving JR, but you have to understand that he is a business man and here to make money. Unfortunately, the Sox are in an endless cycle where the Sox fans won't consistantly go to the games unless the Sox management puts some money into the team, and the Sox management won't put money into the team unless they get more fan support to justify taking the risk of putting more money into the team. Both sides have a fair arguement, so I think Sox fans have to take some blame in this case, and not just cry about how cheap JR is. Sox fans don't want to spend $15 of their own money on a ticket, yet they get mad because JR doesn't spend 15M of his own money on this team. It goes both ways when you look at it critically.

 

How do you know that are advanced scouts suck? Can you even name one of the Sox advanced scouts? Yet you "know" that they suck. You appear to be a classic case of a fan who thinks he knows everything about this organization, and if he was in charge this team would have multiple WS rings. You probably have no clue(me either) on all the things that go on within the Sox organization, so please stop pretending that you do. On the outside, I would say that the Sox advanced scouts have done a pretty good job. If you look throughout the majors, than you will see that there are a bunch of former Sox prospects doing well. The Sox track record of developing young talent is comparible to most major league teams.

 

Another KW hater. A guy who points to his 2-3 bad trades and ignores the 8-10 trades that have been extremely beneficial to this organization. No GM is flawless and has every trade work out as they have planned. Furthermore, you have to take into consideration that since KW has to make most of his changes through trade, he has to take more chances than other GM's who have the luxery of "buying" their talent on the FA market.

 

You continue to mention Garland, Crede, and Borchard, but what about Sox prospects who have developed and live up to their potential? Guys like Maggs, Lee, Buehrle, Rowand, ect. Once again you lack to ability to look at things from both perspectives. All organization have overhyped prospects that don't live up to the hype, so why do you pretend that the Sox are the only team with that problem. Until you gain the ability to look at things critically and from both perspectives, it is worthless arguing with you.

[qwerty]

Personally, I think trading Crede is something they're considering, and it would not surprise me if they're gauging interest from other teams.

 

Sure, they'd prefer not to trade him at his age and presumed upside, but it all depends what you can get.

 

If they do deal Crede, the good news is there are a few "stop gap" 3B out there on the free agent market.

 

After the disappointing year, I believe they're looking at all options.

If they do trade him they will get nothing more that a decent to solid relief pitcher. Right now he just doesn't have much trade value.

[The Beast]

I will give Crede til the all-star break to turn things around.

[qwerty]

I will give Crede til the all-star break to turn things around.

You expect to get anything at all for him by then? The little value he has now will be entirely disminished by the all-star break.

[southsider2k5]

Crede was the MVP of two different leagues.  That is real potential, and has NOTHING to do with the White Sox selling him as anything. 

 

Borchard hit .295 with 27 HR and 98, while drawing 67 BB in his first full professional season at AA.  I'm sorry he hasn't panned out as you hoped, but those numbers sell themselves.  HE created the expectations, not a great sales job by the Sox.

 

Garland, while it is disappointing that he hasn't seemed to improve a lot, is still just 24.  In comparison, Curt Schilling was still splitting time between AAA and the Majors (for the 4th straight year) at 24.  At 27, Schilling was 2-8 with a 4.48 ERA and peripherals no better or worse than Garland's.  Garland was a first round draft pick who has always received rave reviews from scouts throughout baseball, not just the Sox.

 

Hate the organization all you want, but try and look at things objectively once in a while.  Not all prospects pan out.  EVERY team has "can't miss" prospects that do miss.  The Sox are no different.  But the Sox aren't trying to brainwash you just to save a few bucks.

Beautiful Rex.

[Yossarian]

Wow, very interesting discussion. I was high on Crede and admit it. I criticized KW's Machiavellian dealings with Manuel that kept Royce Clayton in the lineup, Jose Valentin playing all over the place and Joe Crede in the minors. I have been disappointed in Crede, especially this year. His swing, like Borchard's needs some work. Unlike Borchard, he's 1. had some degree of success in the past at the ML level and 2. seems to realize he has to work hard to salvage his career. Borchard seems unwilling or unable to adjust his game at the plate. So, I say give Crede his last chance in 05. Borchard will never amount to anything. He's not even as good as a modern day Dave Nicholson. If I'm wrong, great then pass me the crow and a couple of cold ones to wash it down. Concerning Garland, I think what you've seen the last three years is what you're going to get. A maddeningly inconsistent SP that doesn't seem to have the competitive edge all the aces of the league possess. I know a comparison was made to Curt Schilling and his troubles early in his career. Schilling always had "power" stuff and an attitude to go with it. Schilling was and is tough as nails, a throwback to another era. Garland looks, talks, and acts soft because that's what he is. In my heart of hearts I don't believe the guy truly believes in himself.

[Gene Honda Civic]

I will give Crede til the all-star break to turn things around.

yeah his career .230/.282/.382 before the ASB have me really excited too.

[The Beast]

yeah his career .230/.282/.382 before the ASB have me really excited too.

Oh yeah? Boo hoo.

[beck72]

Personally, I think trading Crede is something they're considering, and it would not surprise me if they're gauging interest from other teams.

 

Sure, they'd prefer not to trade him at his age and presumed upside, but it all depends what you can get.

 

If they do deal Crede, the good news is there are a few "stop gap" 3B out there on the free agent market.

 

After the disappointing year, I believe they're looking at all options.

With a lot of players available for 3b, Crede wouldn't have much trade value though. The Sox would likely only get another teams "disappointment" or lower level minor leaguers who are a few years away from the bigs.

 

Can the Sox envision a scenario where they trade Crede for a few average minor league prospects, and sign a FA for 2 years at 5 mill a yr, like Koskie, who gets hurt, misses 75 games and hits below .250, while Crede has a good 1st half and better 2nd half, and hits .285 with 25 hr's and 85 rbi's? I bet that's what KW is thinking when he's talking like this.

 

Keeping Crede makes sense. The sox still could and should upgrade at ss or 2B, C, OF, the bullpen, and SP. There are still other guys with trade value

[qwerty]

With a lot of players available for 3b, Crede wouldn't have much trade value though. The Sox would likely only get another teams "disappointment" or lower level minor leaguers who are a few years away from the bigs.

 

Can the Sox envision a scenario where they trade Crede for a few average minor league prospects, and sign a FA for 2 years at 5 mill a yr, like Koskie, who gets hurt, misses 75 games and hits below .250, while Crede has a good 1st half and better 2nd half, and hits .285 with 25 hr's and 85 rbi's? I bet that's what KW is thinking when he's talking like this.

 

Keeping Crede makes sense. The sox still could and should upgrade at ss or 2B, C, OF, the bullpen, and SP. There are still other guys with trade value

3rd base is the only position we have a legitimate chance at upgrading on the free agent market. We need to do it while we can in my opinion. We really need koskie i mean come on in his worst year he still blows cruddy out of the water.

[Guest JimH]

If they do trade him they will get nothing more that a decent to solid relief pitcher. Right now he just doesn't have much trade value.

Could be, but that's just a guess on your part.

 

IMO, he's got a bit more value than we may give him credit for.

[qwerty]

Could be, but that's just a guess on your part.

 

IMO, he's got a bit more value than we may give him credit for.

How does he have more value than what we all think? He is a below average third baseman (offensively) and this year there are several pretty damn good third baseman on free agency. Also look for hillenbrand to be on the trading block.

[beck72]

3rd base is the only position we have a legitimate chance at upgrading on the free agent market. We need to do it while we can in my opinion.  We really need koskie i mean come on in his worst year he still blows cruddy out of the water.

The Sox have only two young position players to build around [Rowand and Uribe]. Crede is potentially another. Why trade him for nothing [because other teams won't give much for him] and sign a 30+ yr old free agent on the down side of his career to a big contract? The Sox still could fill other holes, like I mentioned earlier.

[qwerty]

The Sox have only two young position players to build around [Rowand and Uribe]. Crede is potentially another. Why trade him for nothing [because other teams won't give much for him] and sign a 30+ yr old free agent on the down side of his career to a big contract? The Sox still could fill other holes, like I mentioned earlier.

It would not take a big contract at all to sign koskie 4-5 million max. Why is it the downside of his career? Because he has one bad year? He is still putting up solid numbers outside of a batting average. Also his defense is just a good if not better than crede. I do agree though that getting a new third baseman should not the first thing on the agenda.

[Guest JimH]

How does he have more value than what we all think? He is a below average third  baseman (offensively) and this year there are several pretty damn good third baseman  on free agency. Also look for hillenbrand to be on the trading block.

Lots of reasons.

 

Teams don't just look at one year's performance, it isn't that simple.

 

Crede is above average defensively, for starters.

 

He supplies decent power, which in today's game is a prerequisite for 3B.

 

He's young.

 

He doesn't make much $$.

 

He's not a troublemaker in the clubhouse - a nice, quiet guy who goes about his business.

 

He had a down year offensively, but a decent year in '03.

 

Another team may look at his swing and say, "we can fix it".

 

If his batting average were 20 points higher, we wouldn't be talking about this. If he hit .260 with 20+ HR's and 70 RBI's with above average defense, we'd be saying we're set at 3B, let's look at other needs.

 

Just because there are veteran 3B on the free agent market doesn't mean Crede has limited trade value. Those free agents will assuredly make more $ than Crede in 2005 with no performance upside. What you see from a Koskie or a Randa is what you get, they are both well over 30. Crede has a much better chance to improve.

 

He's got more trade value than you think.

[Guest JimH]

Also his defense is just a good if not better than crede.

Just as good.

 

Koskie had a .963 fielding %, Crede was .965. Crede had one more error and a lot more fielding chances.

[beck72]

Looking at Joe's minor league numbers [career avgs, highs in SLG, OBP, etc] keeping Joe for another year, hoping he puts a solid full year together, is reasonable to expect. It's not like he was some scrub minor leaguer who never hit. He's had success in the minors and the majors. 2005 should see Crede in a sox uniform.

 

http://www.sports-wired.com/players/profile.asp?Name=JEH

 

Look at how Joe improved in his 2nd yr in AA [2000] and in AAA [2002]. He posted his best numbers. He's shown the ability to adjust. I also didn't know how well he did in his first few years, being one of the youngest guys in rookie and A ball leagues. That does tell me something.