Yossarian Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Absolutely ridiculous. :headshake Not necessarily. This trade gives me the willies. I hope Garcia isn't Broglio to Jeremy Reeds Brock. I know I'm showing my age here but ask an old time Cub fan about that long ago trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rowand44 Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Not necessarily. This trade gives me the willies. I hope Garcia isn't Broglio to Jeremy Reeds Brock. I know I'm showing my age here but ask an old time Cub fan about that long ago trade. Yos, that's not why I'm saying it's ridiculous, regardless of the way you feel about the trade it's ridiculous to say it was a bad trade because we could have just signed freddy in the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yossarian Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Yos, that's not why I'm saying it's ridiculous, regardless of the way you feel about the trade it's ridiculous to say it was a bad trade because we could have just signed freddy in the offseason. Gotcha, sorry for being a tad dense. Old age setting in or a long day at the office, which ever excuse sounds best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Yes, last year Belliard hit Lefties well. But he also was hitting at Coors Field for half the season, where he did most of his damage. His career averages coming into this season were: 119 G .266 BA .343 OBP 26 2B 8 HR 45 RBI 5 SB His best years outside of Colorado were 1999 and 2000. Take away a little power and add steals and we basically got the same exact thing from Willie in what most are calling a disappointing year. Sorry, that would not have been a smart move. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Yes, last year Belliard hit Lefties well. But he also was hitting at Coors Field for half the season, where he did most of his damage. His career averages coming into this season were: 119 G .266 BA .343 OBP 26 2B 8 HR 45 RBI 5 SB His best years outside of Colorado were 1999 and 2000. Take away a little power and add steals and we basically got the same exact thing from Willie in what most are calling a disappointing year. Sorry, that would not have been a smart move. You are telling me that you thought willie would be able to put up numbers as good if not better than belliards career numbers before this year. Because i know i sure didn't and i know plenty of people felt the same way. Last year and the year before willie looked totally over matched. I didn't see any reasons to believe he would be the same or better than belliard this year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I've gotta side with rex on this one... If KW stood up at Soxfest and told us we were going to sit our promising young 2B in favor of Ronnie Belliard, he would have been lynched.... I know I would have put steff's little tussle with KW to shame with the earful I would have given him about that one, and I'm not a big WH fan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I've gotta side with rex on this one... If KW stood up at Soxfest and told us we were going to sit our promising young 2B in favor of Ronnie Belliard, he would have been lynched.... I know I would have put steff's little tussle with KW to shame with the earful I would have given him about that one, and I'm not a big WH fan. One year of willie is enough for me. Seems like we know what he can do already. Can't bunt and seems to scared to stealand not agressive enough on the base paths. He gets really hot for 3-4 games and then slump for the next ten. I don't dislike willie harris but i don't like the fact he was suppose to be our lead-off hitter to begin the year. Kw really needed to find a lead-off or number two hitter so that willie could be batting 9th. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 You are telling me that you thought willie would be able to put up numbers as good if not better than belliards career numbers before this year. Because i know i sure didn't and i know plenty of people felt the same way. Last year and the year before willie looked totally over matched. I didn't see any reasons to believe he would be the same or better than belliard this year. If not, then why is everyone so disappointed at his season. His numbers this year weren't that far off from Belliard's career numbers (again, assuming at the time that he wasn't on the decline). IF the Sox believed in Willie Harris enough to trade Aaron Miles and eliminate competition for the job, then YES, they thought he would be able to produce. It's not Willie's fault that they didn't have anyone else to bat leadoff. Willie should have been batting 9th all year. If the Sox would have brought in Belliard 98% of Sox fans would be calling KW stupid. They would be screaming that he hit .277 because he was playing in Coors Field and reminding everyone that he hit .211 the year before. Post in hindsight all you want, but any way you look at it, you don't see him giving the Sox much more than you expected from Willie. Would you have been happy with Belliard's .249 average and .312 OBP after the All-Star break?? No, you would be clarmoring for a new 2B next year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 One year of willie is enough for me. Seems like we know what he can do already. Can't bunt and seems to scared to stealand not agressive enough on the base paths. He gets really hot for 3-4 games and then slump for the next ten. I don't dislike willie harris but i don't like the fact he was suppose to be our lead-off hitter to begin the year. Kw really needed to find a lead-off or number two hitter so that willie could be batting 9th. You're speaking about what we know of willie now though. Last off-season he was a ball a potential, a big question mark, but a ball of potential none-the-less. It wouldn't have gone over too well if KW decided to replace him with a guy whose numbers didn't seemed to prove that he wasn't anything special. I was in the minority last off-season, when I wanted a guy like Todd Walker who the Cubs signed to platoon.(I remember being really upset at how cheaply the cubs got him) To be an insurance policy. And todd walker was definitely a safer bet than signing Ronnie belliard last off-season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Yes, last year Belliard hit Lefties well. But he also was hitting at Coors Field for half the season, where he did most of his damage. His career averages coming into this season were: 119 G .266 BA .343 OBP 26 2B 8 HR 45 RBI 5 SB His best years outside of Colorado were 1999 and 2000. Take away a little power and add steals and we basically got the same exact thing from Willie in what most are calling a disappointing year. Sorry, that would not have been a smart move. Belliard must have been injured in 2002, because he has a career .851 OPS against left-handed pitching wih a .290 average, but his statistics against lefties in 2002? OPS: .548 AVG: .200 Something ain't right, because his stats from 2001-2003 flip flop more than John Kerry. 2001-2004 statistics vs. left-handed pitching: 2001 OPS: .942 AVG: .284 2002 OPS: .548 AVG: .200 2003 OPS: 1.010 AVG: .345 2004 OPS: .928 AVG: .319 But he continues to suck against RHP. He had a .694 OPS and a .263 AVG in 395 ABs against righties this year. That's not much of an improvement from his .675 OPS and .254 AVG against them in 2003. He needs to work on that. But still, he came into the month of September hitting .300 overall in 525 ABs. That ain't too shabby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 And after all, we are talking about Babe Belliard, are we not? This guy's a certified Sox killer. I like him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 You're speaking about what we know of willie now though. Last off-season he was a ball a potential, a big question mark, but a ball of potential none-the-less. It wouldn't have gone over too well if KW decided to replace him with a guy whose numbers didn't seemed to prove that he wasn't anything special. I was in the minority last off-season, when I wanted a guy like Todd Walker who the Cubs signed to platoon.(I remember being really upset at how cheaply the cubs got him) To be an insurance policy. And todd walker was definitely a safer bet than signing Ronnie belliard last off-season. In my last post i basically retracted that any improvement at second base would not be needed if they only got a lead-off or two hole hitter so that willie could slide down into the 9 hole. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I've gotta side with rex on this one... If KW stood up at Soxfest and told us we were going to sit our promising young 2B in favor of Ronnie Belliard, he would have been lynched.... I know I would have put steff's little tussle with KW to shame with the earful I would have given him about that one, and I'm not a big WH fan. He did sign Juan Uribe, though. There are plenty of similarities between him and Belliard. Neither would have been looked upon as starters right off the bat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 You're speaking about what we know of willie now though. Last off-season he was a ball a potential, a big question mark, but a ball of potential none-the-less. It wouldn't have gone over too well if KW decided to replace him with a guy whose numbers didn't seemed to prove that he wasn't anything special. I was in the minority last off-season, when I wanted a guy like Todd Walker who the Cubs signed to platoon.(I remember being really upset at how cheaply the cubs got him) To be an insurance policy. And todd walker was definitely a safer bet than signing Ronnie belliard last off-season. Belliard was just a name a through out there but i should have mentioned walker because he has proven himself about ten times more than belliard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Post in hindsight all you want, but any way you look at it, you don't see him giving the Sox much more than you expected from Willie. Would you have been happy with Belliard's .249 average and .312 OBP after the All-Star break?? No, you would be clarmoring for a new 2B next year. I'll give you that. He hit a wall, but his first half numbers were extraordinary for the most part, and he entered September with a .300 average overall. But I can't defend that second half slump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 He did sign Juan Uribe, though. There are plenty of similarities between him and Belliard. Neither would have been looked upon as starters right off the bat. Since you and Qwerty weren't around, Here's the reaction to that trade.... http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12483&hl= I was excited because I thought it signaled another move on the horizon, namely Jose to Seattle for FG or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Since you and Qwerty weren't around, Here's the reaction to that trade.... http://www.soxtalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12483&hl= I was excited because I thought it signaled another move on the horizon, namely Jose to Seattle for FG or something like that. Wow eight pages for the uribe trade, alot more than i would have thought. Anyways people seem have either not liked it, liked it, or just didn't care about it really. Pretty evenly spilt in it seems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Wow eight pages for the uribe trade, alot more than i would have thought. Anyways people seem have either not liked it, liked it, or just didn't care about it really. Pretty evenly spilt in it seems. It was tough to really figure out... We were sold that there was going to be a big trade.. Uribe obviously wasn't it. it was the only significant change we made all off-season. There were plenty of people calling for KW's head by the time ST rolled around and PK hadn't been shipped off. I remember saying something along the lines of, "i'm much more confident in KW now that I've seen that he won't just make a move for the sake of making a move" -- again I think I was in the minority on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hammerhead johnson Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I was excited because I thought it signaled another move on the horizon, namely Jose to Seattle for FG or something like that. I was intrigued when it happened as well, because Uribe used to be a mega prospect, and he was still only 24 years old. And if we had signed Belliard, it would have made sense. Willie Harris had a .181 AVG against LHP in 2003. Belliard had a .345 AVG against LHP in 2003, and he wasn't on anyone's radar screen going into this season, just like Rex Hudler said. I know that he played at Coors and all, but still, .345 covers home and away games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 Wow eight pages for the uribe trade, alot more than i would have thought. Anyways people seem have either not liked it, liked it, or just didn't care about it really. Pretty evenly spilt in it seems. You get the benefit of the doubt this year because you joined in May. But next offseason you come out with a post like this Belliard thing I'm gonna ask one thing of you ...... Show me where you said it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I was intrigued when it happened as well, because Uribe used to be a mega prospect, and he was still only 24 years old. And if we had signed Belliard, it would have made sense. Willie Harris had a .181 AVG against LHP in 2003. Belliard had a .345 AVG against LHP in 2003, and he wasn't on anyone's radar screen going into this season, just like Rex Hudler said. I know that he played at Coors and all, but still, .345 covers home and away games. I thought it would be a win - win for both teams. Uribe would fit better into the Latino style clubhouse with Ozzie, as Clint Hurdle said he couldn't communicate with him in Colorado. Also, you look at Uribe's first season's numbers, to show he can definitely hit at this level. Plus he's got excellent range, a good arm, and can field in all 3 infield positions. We all thought Aaron Miles could hit over .300 leading off for the Rockies, due to the Coors Field factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 I thought it would be a win - win for both teams. Uribe would fit better into the Latino style clubhouse with Ozzie, as Clint Hurdle said he couldn't communicate with him in Colorado. Also, you look at Uribe's first season's numbers, to show he can definitely hit at this level. Plus he's got excellent range, a good arm, and can field in all 3 infield positions. We all thought Aaron Miles could hit over .300 leading off for the Rockies, due to the Coors Field factor. What is the Coors Field factor for a singles hitter? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 What is the Coors Field factor for a singles hitter? It's part of the equation when pitcher's can't throw a decent breaking ball with any consistency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 5, 2004 Share Posted October 5, 2004 It's part of the equation when pitcher's can't throw a decent breaking ball with any consistency. That and an expansive outfield, I'd guess. FWIW, I think Miles would have hit like he did with the Rockies most anywhere. He is a solid contact hitter who, despite drawing few walks, does work the count well. I don't have figures on how many times he swung at the first pitch in an AB, but he only put the first pitch in play 39 times out of 522 at bats. I'm not trying to start a Harris vs. Miles debate here, just thinking aloud. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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