Southtown Article, great analysis

[Guest JimH]

I agree with most of what you have said, but remember, Sox fans are a different breed.

 

We are not going to contend with the team that we have now.

Absolutely agree with this.

 

They need to make some changes to have this team contend. Don't wait for the Twins to fall down to our level, it may never happen. Go hunt them down.

 

They should be more creative with their partial season plans. Get more people in the park by providing more incentives to commit early. The more money they get from ticket sales in advance, the better off they'll be.

 

That's why I suggested pushing an early season plan. Every team always draws better in July and August, in contention or not, but that certainly is a crucial factor.

 

I also think there are more casual fans than we suspect. Chicagoland is way different than it used to be in terms of hardcore Sox fans and hardcore Cub fans. Believe me, because my seats are in the bleachers, there are a lot of casual fans who come out for the social aspect, i.e. the "party". I see as much or more of that out in the bleachers than I do the hardcore Sox fan type. Not saying it's bad, just saying that's my personal observation.

 

If I were the White Sox, I would place much more of an effort on getting people into some sort of partial season ticket plan vs. Pepsi 1/2 price nights. Use price incentive as a way to get new customers to commit to a plan. They can, and should, do a "One Game A Month" plan. There are lots of things they can do to draw the casual fan, because like it or not, the casual fan is a big, big part of their bottom line ... more than we care to admit.

 

They should have ads in the paper right now, they don't. They should do more magazine ads with direct response cards. Lastly, they should have a season ticket referral program, and they don't.

 

If they did more things right in terms of marketing to the casual fan = more money for them = better opportunity to afford better players. They're going to run it like a business whether we like it or not. Accordingly, they should do more to get people in through the turnstyles, hardcore fan and casual fan.

[israel4ever]

I cannot disagree with you at all.

 

 

I just want to see the Sox be more proactive, not reactive.

[Rex Hudler]

I agree with most of what you have said, but remember, Sox fans are a different breed.

 

We are not lemmings, like cub fans, who will go to the Park any time a game is being played. Sox fans come out if/when the team is in contention. (we were drawing 30,000+ during June-July)

 

It doesn't matter what sort of incentives we are offerred, i.e $1 hotdogs on Thursdays, 1/2 price night, bobblehead night, Elvis night, etc...doesn't matter.

 

We have to contend, that's the bottom line. We are not going to contend with the team that we have now.

I'm sorry, but I think that is a negative, not a positive. A real fan supports their team win or lose. I know attendance will dip naturally when a team is not competitive, but having the midset you describe is not a good thing.

 

You say there were 30,000+ when the team was playing well during June/July, but you forgoet to mention that those are the busiest months anyway. School is out, the weather is good. All teams (minus the few exceptions that fill the park all the time) have better attendance in June and July.

[israel4ever]

I'm sorry, but I think that is a negative, not a positive.  A real fan supports their team win or lose.  I know attendance will dip naturally when a team is not competitive, but having the midset you describe is not a good thing.

 

You say there were 30,000+ when the team was playing well during June/July, but you forgoet to mention that those are the busiest months anyway.  School is out, the weather is good.  All teams (minus the few exceptions that fill the park all the time) have better attendance in June and July.

We've had this discussion before, but, here goes.

 

Every person (except for the very wealthy) has x-amount of money that they can (or will) spend on entertainment. Say for example, your favorite form of entertainment is going to movies, but, every movie that is playing sucks. Most likely, you will find other ways to spend your entertainment dollar. That doesn't mean you aren't a real movie fan; it means that you aren't willing to spend your time and money on crappy movies.

 

If the Sox are out of contention by mid-July, where is the incentive to go to the park? To see them "battle it out for 2nd or 3rd place"? Yawn.

 

Since cub "fans" wouldn't know good baseball if it bit them on the ass, they will go to their s***ty little park, and not give a rat's ass who's winning. Those aren't real fans, they are morons.

[Rex Hudler]

We've had this discussion before, but, here goes.

 

Every person (except for the very wealthy) has x-amount of money that they can (or will) spend on entertainment. Say for example, your favorite form of entertainment is going to movies, but, every movie that is playing sucks. Most likely, you will find other ways to spend your entertainment dollar. That doesn't mean you aren't a real movie fan; it means that you aren't willing to spend your time and money on crappy movies.

 

If the Sox are out of contention by mid-July, where is the incentive to go to the park? To see them "battle it out for 2nd or 3rd place"? Yawn.

 

Since cub "fans" wouldn't know good baseball if it bit them on the ass, they will go to their s***ty little park, and not give a rat's ass who's winning. Those aren't real fans, they are morons.

Major League Baseball is not the movies. The comparison does not fit.

 

St. Louis still draws every year. The Dodgers do. Maybe, just maybe, some people come to games because they enjoy baseball and like to come watch a game. Maybe they like to see their favorite player(s), whether on the home team or not. Maybe people come with friends because going to a game is a good time. Maybe they are there with a group from work.

 

Just because fans come to the ballpark for reasons other than the place their team is in doesn't make them less worthy, or you any more.

 

I'm sorry, but Sox fans seem to carry some kind of syndrome that everyone hates them, their owner doesn't want to win to spite them, the media is against them, etc. And that regardless of the fact the Cubs are 10x more popular nationally, it is because all of those people are stupid and not as smart as Sox fans, along with the media who perpetuate that stupidity.

 

It's like the little kid who is jealous of big brother and points out every way possible that big brother is advantaged.

 

There may be reasons for this, but it still makes Sox fans sound like bunch of whiney little kids, ready to make an excuse for everything. Like it or not, that is the real perception of the White Sox and your "we'll only come if we win" attitude only fuels that. It's not real flattering.

[southsider2k5]

We've had this discussion before, but, here goes.

 

Every person (except for the very wealthy) has x-amount of money that they can (or will) spend on entertainment. Say for example, your favorite form of entertainment is going to movies, but, every movie that is playing sucks. Most likely, you will find other ways to spend your entertainment dollar. That doesn't mean you aren't a real movie fan; it means that you aren't willing to spend your time and money on crappy movies.

 

If the Sox are out of contention by mid-July, where is the incentive to go to the park? To see them "battle it out for 2nd or 3rd place"? Yawn.

 

Since cub "fans" wouldn't know good baseball if it bit them on the ass, they will go to their s***ty little park, and not give a rat's ass who's winning. Those aren't real fans, they are morons.

And I still don't understand your answers. Personally I hate the movies. I hate sitting still for something either contrived or that I have seen 100 times before. So consequently I don't care what is playing at the movies. I don't read reviews, I don't see what is playing, I don't worry about it. I don't care.

 

I don't see why you spend so much time on something you don't seem to get any joy out of. Everything is negative. I have the same reactions of the movie industry, so I just don't deal with it. Why do you still deal with this?

[israel4ever]

I b**** about ownership because I love the Sox; if I didn't, I wouldn't care how the team was run.

 

I feel that we as Sox fans deserve a helluva lot better than we are given, and we shouldn't put up with it.

 

I am not trying to tell anyone how to support their team, I am saying that I will not spend a dime of my money going to The Cell until the ownership shows me that it's committed to winning. (I have not gone to a Blackhawks game in 5 years because of the same issue; lack of committment to winning.)

[Rex Hudler]

I b**** about ownership because I love the Sox; if I didn't, I wouldn't care how the team was run.

 

I feel that we as Sox fans deserve a helluva lot better than we are given, and we shouldn't put up with it.

 

I am not trying to tell anyone how to support their team, I am saying that I will not spend a dime of my money going to The Cell until the ownership shows me that it's committed to winning. (I have not gone to a Blackhawks game in 5 years because of the same issue; lack of committment to winning.)

Man, you need to sit back, relax and drink a beer. You have issues.

[Guest JimH]

I b**** about ownership because I love the Sox; if I didn't, I wouldn't care how the team was run.

 

I feel that we as Sox fans deserve a helluva lot better than we are given, and we shouldn't put up with it.

 

I am not trying to tell anyone how to support their team, I am saying that I will not spend a dime of my money going to The Cell until the ownership shows me that it's committed to winning. (I have not gone to a Blackhawks game in 5 years because of the same issue; lack of committment to winning.)

What I struggle with is, you love the Sox but you won't spend a dime going to the ballpark?

 

Meaning, you'll go only if they're in first place or close to first place?

 

Isn't that bandwagon jumping? The same thing Cubs fans are accused of doing?

 

When you say Sox fans deserve better than we're given ... huh?? If you're a fan who won't support the team by attending games until they measure up to your standards, the Sox should be looking for other fans.

 

You feel something is owed to you, news flash, it isn't. If you're a paying customer, you're owed a clean, safe ballpark environment and a major league caliber team on the field. That's it.

 

On the other hand, if you're not a paying customer, what you're owed is clear TV reception in return for paying your cable or satellite bill.

 

Just because I'm a partial season ticket holder doesn't give me any more right to b**** than you. But I understand the following:

 

- Ownership runs the team as a business, they spend what they bring in.

 

- I love the team and I enjoy going to the games. I even enjoyed going to the games in 1970 when they lost 106 times.

 

- I try to support a team I love in some small way, as my time and finances dictate.

 

- Complaining ad nauseum on a fan website about ownership and how cheap they are won't change a damn thing.

[Steff]

I'll be sending in my deposit today.

 

 

God I love White Sox Baseball!!

[israel4ever]

What I struggle with is, you love the Sox but you won't spend a dime going to the ballpark?

 

Meaning, you'll go only if they're in first place or close to first place?

 

Isn't that bandwagon jumping?  The same thing Cubs fans are accused of doing?

 

When you say Sox fans deserve better than we're given ... huh??  If you're a fan who won't support the team by attending games until they measure up to your standards, the Sox should be looking for other fans.

 

You feel something is owed to you, news flash, it isn't.  If you're a paying customer, you're owed a clean, safe ballpark environment and a major league caliber team on the field.  That's it.

 

On the other hand, if you're not a paying customer, what you're owed is clear TV reception in return for paying your cable or satellite bill.

 

Just because I'm a partial season ticket holder doesn't give me any more right to b**** than you.  But I understand the following:

 

- Ownership runs the team as a business, they spend what they bring in.

 

- I love the team and I enjoy going to the games.  I even enjoyed going to the games in 1970 when they lost 106 times.

 

- I try to support a team I love in some small way, as my time and finances dictate.

 

- Complaining ad nauseum on a fan website about ownership and how cheap they are won't change a damn thing.

You're right, complaining won't change a thing.

 

But, if everyone stayed away from the park until ownership showed a committment to winning, ownership would have to change it's tune!

[Steff]

But, if everyone stayed away from the park until ownership showed a committment to winning, ownership would have to change it's tune!

If this happened.. my guess is that they'd sell the team and it would be moved.

[israel4ever]

If this happened.. my guess is that they'd sell the team and it would be moved.

Maybe.

 

But, look at the Blackhawks. How do you think the Wirtzs feel when the see less than 10,000 fans in the stands. They haven't sold the team yet. Dollar Bill is even investing in free agents.

 

Maybe, on the other hand, if people stay away from the Cell, ownership will put more money into players that would put "asses in the seats", OR would sell the team to someone who would.

[israel4ever]

What I struggle with is, you love the Sox but you won't spend a dime going to the ballpark?

 

Meaning, you'll go only if they're in first place or close to first place?

 

Isn't that bandwagon jumping?  The same thing Cubs fans are accused of doing?

 

When you say Sox fans deserve better than we're given ... huh??  If you're a fan who won't support the team by attending games until they measure up to your standards, the Sox should be looking for other fans.

 

You feel something is owed to you, news flash, it isn't.  If you're a paying customer, you're owed a clean, safe ballpark environment and a major league caliber team on the field.  That's it.

 

On the other hand, if you're not a paying customer, what you're owed is clear TV reception in return for paying your cable or satellite bill.

 

Just because I'm a partial season ticket holder doesn't give me any more right to b**** than you.  But I understand the following:

 

- Ownership runs the team as a business, they spend what they bring in.

 

- I love the team and I enjoy going to the games.  I even enjoyed going to the games in 1970 when they lost 106 times.

 

- I try to support a team I love in some small way, as my time and finances dictate.

 

- Complaining ad nauseum on a fan website about ownership and how cheap they are won't change a damn thing.

To answer your question, (with a question(s)) why make a committment to a team if they are not willing to reciprocate to the fans? Why pour your heart, soul and hard-earned dollars into something that promises (delivers) little in return? Why go to a restaurant if you already know that the food is average, at best?

[Rex Hudler]

If this happened.. my guess is that they'd sell the team and it would be moved.

Or they would become the Brewers..........

[Rex Hudler]

Jim, some people would rather just be pissed at the world. Talking logically isn't going to help. Your points are well taken by anyone with any sense.

[Steff]

Or they would become the Brewers..........

I don't see Jerry and most of the others being a part of that type of embarrassment.. but who knows. I think they'd sell in a heart beat. Most of the investors - to the shagrin of several here :rolly - are in this to make $$.. the second the Sox start losing any they'll agree to sell, IMO.

[Guest JimH]

To answer your question, (with a question(s)) why make a committment to a team if they are not willing to reciprocate to the fans? Why pour your heart, soul and hard-earned dollars into something that promises (delivers) little in return? Why go to a restaurant if you already know that the food is average, at best?

The difference between you and me is we have a different philosophy or opinion on what making a commitment to fans means.

 

You think making a commitment to fans is:

 

- Going out every year and signing top free agents, no matter what they cost and no matter if it turns out to be good investment or not. Hey, Reinsdorf and Einhorn are wealthy, let them dig into their pockets and personally finance the acquisition.

 

- If it doesn't work out, i.e. if signing all these top free agents doesn't bring a pennant or World Series appearance, well hey ... you'll just stay away from the ballpark until such time as everything works out. Then and only then you'll actually support the team.

 

- Go out and sign the top free agents the next year, and the year after.

 

- The White Sox shouldn't run the team like a business. They should be going into debt on a whim ... especially the whims of fans who don't spend a dime on the team.

 

My definition of making a commitment to fans is:

 

- Keeping your young good core players and building around them

 

- Spending as much money as practical on scouting, drafting, and the farm system to ensure you keep getting young good core players

 

- Providing me several options to attend games (multiple season ticket packages, price points, flex plans, etc.

 

- Providing me a safe, clean entertaining environment at the ballpark

 

- Not overcharging me to attend games.

 

- Put as much money back into the team as you take in. Contrary to what you think, Reinsdorf does not need White Sox money to make a living, he never has since they bought the team.

 

- Place the best possible management team together, with those who want to work for the franchise and can grow with it. Identifying with the fan base is a plus.

 

Now, if you want to organize a boycott of White Sox games, you're coming to the wrong place. Just about everyone here, as best I can tell, is smart enough to realize some sort of goofy boycott accomplishes zero ... nada ... nothing. It will only make things worse.

 

As for your Blackhawk analogy, you're barking up the wrong tree. My dad first bought season tickets in 1957 (1st row, 1st balcony, Sect. P, seats 29-30). We held those tickets until 1999 when he moved to Arizona. I now attend games sporadically. Wirtz is another one who runs the team like a business. The reason why there's a lockout is because other teams didn't. The economics were way out of whack. Similar to the White Sox, it is not what they spend, it's how they spend it. Only naivety clouds that conclusion. Pulford was slow to identify alternate sources of talent in the early 90's (Europe, Russia) and his philosophy of loyalty to players was misguided to a great extent. They hired the wrong coaches, some from within (Dirk Graham, Magnuson), some from outside (Bob Murdoch to Alpo Suhonen with many in between). The three free agents they signed in Cullimore, Barnaby, and Brown are not "name" guys. They are complementary players designed to fill in around a young core. The Blackhawks, Pulford in particular, were so concerned about being competitive they never were able to draft impact young players and build around them. Sound familiar? The White Sox haven't drafted in the top 10 in ages.

 

If you think Wirtz is signing free agents because he's caving in to some boycott, you're way off base. They've been trying to develop a young core since 2000 and it's just now beginning to happen.

 

If you're only willing to support the White Sox when they're playing well and/or making a charge toward first place, that's bandwagon jumping. Don't criticize Cub fans then. That's what a lot of them do. You said you won't spend a dime on the team, and you basically advocate a boycott against a team that at the least consistently finishes over .500.

 

Why are you a fan again? I'm sure the players love fans who don't support the team, an empty stadium makes them play so much better.

[israel4ever]

The difference between you and me is we have a different philosophy or opinion on what making a commitment to fans means.

 

You think making a commitment to fans is:

 

- Going out every year and signing top free agents, no matter what they cost and no matter if it turns out to be good investment or not.  Hey, Reinsdorf and Einhorn are wealthy, let them dig into their pockets and personally finance the acquisition.

 

- If it doesn't work out, i.e. if signing all these top free agents doesn't bring a pennant or World Series appearance, well hey ... you'll just stay away from the ballpark until such time as everything works out.  Then and only then you'll actually support the team.

 

- Go out and sign the top free agents the next year, and the year after.

 

- The White Sox shouldn't run the team like a business.  They should be going into debt on a whim ... especially the whims of fans who don't spend a dime on the team.

 

My definition of making a commitment to fans is:

 

- Keeping your young good core players and building around them

 

- Spending as much money as practical on scouting, drafting, and the farm system to ensure you keep getting young good core players

 

- Providing me several options to attend games (multiple season ticket packages, price points, flex plans, etc.

 

- Providing me a safe, clean entertaining environment at the ballpark

 

- Not overcharging me to attend games.

 

- Put as much money back into the team as you take in.  Contrary to what you think, Reinsdorf does not need White Sox money to make a living, he never has since they bought the team.

 

- Place the best possible management team together, with those who want to work for the franchise and can grow with it.  Identifying with the fan base is a plus.

 

Now, if you want to organize a boycott of White Sox games, you're coming to the wrong place.  Just about everyone here, as best I can tell, is smart enough to realize some sort of goofy boycott accomplishes zero ... nada ... nothing.  It will only make things worse.

 

As for your Blackhawk analogy, you're barking up the wrong tree.  My dad first bought season tickets in 1957 (1st row, 1st balcony, Sect. P, seats 29-30).  We held those tickets until 1999 when he moved to Arizona.  I now attend games sporadically.  Wirtz is another one who runs the team like a business.  The reason why there's a lockout is because other teams didn't.  The economics were way out of whack.  Similar to the White Sox, it is not what they spend, it's how they spend it.  Only naivety clouds that conclusion.  Pulford was slow to identify alternate sources of talent in the early 90's (Europe, Russia) and his philosophy of loyalty to players was misguided to a great extent.  They hired the wrong coaches, some from within (Dirk Graham, Magnuson), some from outside (Bob Murdoch to Alpo Suhonen with many in between).  The three free agents they signed in Cullimore, Barnaby, and Brown are not "name" guys.  They are complementary players designed to fill in around a young core.  The Blackhawks, Pulford in particular, were so concerned about being competitive they never were able to draft impact young players and build around them.  Sound familiar?  The White Sox haven't drafted in the top 10 in ages.

 

If you think Wirtz is signing free agents because he's caving in to some boycott, you're way off base.  They've been trying to develop a young core since 2000 and it's just now beginning to happen.

 

If you're only willing to support the White Sox when they're playing well and/or making a charge toward first place, that's bandwagon jumping.  Don't criticize Cub fans then.  That's what a lot of them do.  You said you won't spend a dime on the team, and you basically advocate a boycott against a team that at the least consistently finishes over .500. 

 

Why are you a fan again?  I'm sure the players love fans who don't support the team, an empty stadium makes them play so much better.

Dude...what are the payrolls of the 4 remaining teams in the playoffs?

 

Hmmmm.

 

(BTW...blind faith does not equal "fandom" IMO!)

[israel4ever]

And what good young core players are you referring to?

 

What scouting? When was the last time we had a good farm system? When was the last time we developed above average-superstar players from our system?

[DBAHO]

And what good young core players are you referring to?

 

What scouting? When was the last time we had a good farm system? When was the last time we developed above average-superstar players from our system?

Mark Buerhle, Carlos Lee, Maggilo Ordonez.

[israel4ever]

And we are losing Magglio and may trade CLee...so, that's not exactly keeping our nucleus of core players, is it?

[Guest JimH]

Dude...what are the payrolls of the 4 remaining teams in the playoffs?

 

Hmmmm.

 

(BTW...blind faith does not equal "fandom" IMO!)

Dude ... Twins made the playoffs, their payroll was less than ours.

 

It's not all about payroll, deep down I think you know this, but the payroll issue is something convenient for you to hang your hat on.

 

Maybe research the revenues as well for a fair comparison. Ya think maybe the Yankees/Red Sox/Cardinals have higher revenues? Cardinals were generally picked for 3rd place, they hit lightning in a bottle this year. Cardinal fans support that team no matter what ... unlike lots of White Sox fans.

 

Who said anything about "blind faith"? I laid out a scenario of what I expect from the franchise ... clearly, logically, and specifically. How does that equate to blind faith? Because you say it does??

 

I'll answer your other post here too.

 

Core young players: Carlos Lee. Paul Konerko. Mark Buehrle. Aaron Rowand. I'll even add Fred Garcia to this. Damaso Marte. Maybe Joe Crede.

 

Developed from the farm system: Carlos Lee. Mark Buehrle. Aaron Rowand. Joe Crede. They picked up several other good players from other team's farm systems, which in fairness should be mentioned: Paul Konerko. Damaso Marte. The two young relievers who did a decent job this year.

 

I'm not defending their scouting and drafting, they need to do better. That's where I want them to spend more money.

[Steff]

And we are losing Magglio and may trade CLee...so, that's not exactly keeping our nucleus of core players, is it?

Not losing Maggs by choice.. and last time I checked Lee was still a member of the Sox.

 

Why don't you give your "the sky is falling" sermon a rest. :sleep

[Guest JimH]

And we are losing Magglio and may trade CLee...so, that's not exactly keeping our nucleus of core players, is it?

Ordoniez with that iffy knee situation ... Would you keep him at that money?

 

Oh, that's right, money is not an issue.

 

One other thing, rather than do a new post on this whole "commitment to winning" thing.

 

Don't even being to tell me I4E, that you b****ed when they picked up Robbie Alomar and Carl Everett last year and this year. Those moves were made to try and get them to win, now. We on this site can debate the validity of those moves, but was that not demonstrating a commitment to try and win? If you b****ed about both those moves, that's inconsistency on your part.