Rex Kickass Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 http://washingtontimes.com/national/200410...13555-7276r.htm This is a slap in the face to every person who died on September 11. NEW YORK — The remains of hundreds of victims of the September 11 terrorist attacks are to be permanently buried in the world's largest garbage dump, to the consternation of their grieving families. Relatives were assured that the ashes resulting from the fireball would be returned to the World Trade Center. Then they would form part of a planned memorial after being sorted from the half-million tons of debris from the Twin Towers that was taken to the Fresh Kills landfill site on Staten Island. The dump had been used to dispose of New York City's garbage for more than 100 years before it was closed six months before the terrorist attacks. Rubble from the World Trade Center covered 48 acres. City authorities have since balked at the estimated $450 million cost of moving the ashes again and have promised to create a 2,200-acre park on top of the dump — whose rotting contents smell of methane gas — and erect a memorial instead. Relatives of 1,169 victims have yet to receive any remains of their loved ones, and many are outraged at the authorities' decision. "We were promised the remains — any and all remains of the victims — and now we discover that my lost son is to spend eternity in a rubbish dump," said Diane Horning, whose son Matthew, 24, died in the North Tower, where he worked for the insurance company Marsh and McLennan. "This is morally reprehensible and emotionally unacceptable, and we are going to fight it all the way." Matthew Horning made two mobile phone calls to his family after the first jet struck the World Trade Center. He asked his father to tell his fiancee, Maura, that he loved her. His last word, sent on a pager message, was: "Scared." His mother, who believes that the cost of moving the ashes has been exaggerated tenfold, said: "They have already started bulldozing junk and debris on top of our loved ones and they have left our son in the garbage. They promised that this would never happen, and they are trying to cover up their mistake, literally and figuratively." Mrs. Horning and her husband, Kurt, a retired teacher, have formed the World Trade Center Families for Proper Burial, a group campaigning for a formal cemetery with markers commemorating each of the 2,749 known victims. A petition on the group's Web site, www.wtcfamiliesforproperburial.com, has more than 18,000 signatures. Last week the families of victims were invited to a planning meeting on Staten Island, but officials offered no concessions. According to city proposals, the mound of debris will be shaped into two embankments, each as long as the 110-story Twin Towers were high. Visitors will be able to walk in between the embankments, looking toward the World Trade Center site across the harbor. Officials say that a cemetery for the ashes would cost at least $45 million and that a memorial will be a focal point of the new World Trade Center. However, Mrs. Horning is enraged by suggestions that it will be a "symbolic" cemetery. "Only if my son is 'symbolically' dead," she says. "But if he's really dead then I really want him buried." New York Gov. George E. Pataki, a Republican, is said to be sympathetic to the relatives, and the New Jersey Legislature has passed legislation ordering the Port Authority, which owned the World Trade Center, to move the dust and ash. Yet it is toothless unless the New York Legislature passes the same law. The office of New York City Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg pointed out that the coroner's office was still trying to identify 10,260 fragments of remains gathered at Fresh Kills. Those that remained unidentified would be interred in the official memorial at the Twin Towers site. The mayor said: "After months of evaluating the complex concerns raised by members of the Families for Proper Burial, we have concluded that we will proceed with plans for a respectful memorial at the recovery site." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimsonWeltall Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 City authorities have since balked at the estimated $450 million cost of moving the ashes again $450 million there it is Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pale Hose Jon Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 look i understand that this is a sensative issue, but what makes these families so much more special than anyother. Why is the loss of one of my relatives not nearly as important as the loss of a wtc death. why should we spend hundreds of millions of dollars on them, while a firefighter who dies tomarrow will recieve very little for his family? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NUKE_CLEVELAND Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 look i understand that this is a sensative issue, but what makes these families so much more special than anyother. Why is the loss of one of my relatives not nearly as important as the loss of a wtc death. why should we spend hundreds of millions of dollars on them, while a firefighter who dies tomarrow will recieve very little for his family? Agreed. You have to draw the line somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Wow this is completely a no win situation. $450 million is insane. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Texsox Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I question that cost estimate. I wonder what else in includes. I'm not certain I would want my wife/son/daughter/uncle/cousin/friend interned for all eternity in a landfill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Am I the only one trying outraged? I don't care if it is 450 million. If it was our relatives we sure as hell wouldn't want them left in a landfill. :fyou Goverment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 The ground is the ground is the ground. Celebrate the memory, not the burial. IMO, of course.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mreye Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 The ground is the ground is the ground. Celebrate the memory, not the burial. IMO, of course.. I have to agree with this. If there were actual bodies I'd be outraged, but we're talking about minute remains. Ashes. They offered to make a memorial park on top of the landfill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 That is like the 4th time in 2 weeks some has agreed with me.. or told me I make sense... I've got to get back into "beeeyyoottcchhh" form fast!! I've got a rep to protect.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I question that cost estimate. I wonder what else in includes. I feel as bad for any family that lost a loved one(s) in the WTC or Pentagon as a result of the 09/11 terrorist attacks. Having said that, it's time for the victim's families of 09/11 to start using some common sense and move on..... as difficult as that may be. Separating dirt from ash from human ash is nearly impossible and the chemical tests that would need to be done on the debris to do so is probably where the $450 million price tag comes from. They have already been bestowed upon with millions of $$$ by the federal gov't..... most of the victims wouldn't have made as much as the federal gov't gave their surviving family members in their lifetime had they lived..... while the soldiers dying in Afghanistan/Iraq and their families receive what is tantamount to a pittance resulting from the deaths of their son or daughter who are fighting as a result of the 09/11 attacks. It's not fair and, eventually, a line needs to be drawn somewhere between whats good for the families and what is good for everyone else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I have to agree with this. If there were actual bodies I'd be outraged, but we're talking about minute remains. Ashes. They offered to make a memorial park on top of the landfill. I agree, but I think I'd be pretty pissed off at the thought of my loved one's remains spending eternity in a landfill, especially if I was promised that the remains would be brought to me. Instead of building Nine Eleven Park, they could use that money to fund the return of the victims' ashes to their relatives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I agree, but I think I'd be pretty pissed off at the thought of my loved one's remains spending eternity in a landfill, especially if I was promised that the remains would be brought to me. Instead of building Nine Eleven Park, they could use that money to fund the return of the victims' ashes to their relatives. Is that even possible? Can you ID ashes? Just curious as I have no idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Instead of building Nine Eleven Park, they could use that money to fund the return of the victims' ashes to their relatives. Building a park would probably cost a few million. Separating human ash from the other debris, according to this article, would cost $450 million. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Is that even possible? Can you ID ashes? Just curious as I have no idea. Probably with DNA testing I'm sure you could. But can you imagine the undertaking separating, as I said prior, human ash from debris and ash from the fires? Common sense people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Is that even possible? Can you ID ashes? Just curious as I have no idea. Don't think so. But I think the cost estimate includes them trying to do so. I'm really not trying to be disrespectful here.. but $450 million could do a lot more good in this country than being spent on separating dirt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Probably with DNA testing I'm sure you could. But can you imagine the undertaking separating, as I said prior, human ash from debris and ash from the fires? Common sense people. You think they would be able to tell the difference..?? My great grandfather was cremated.. and being the nosey little thing that I am.. I opened up the urn and looked inside. Honest it looked like they scooped the ashes from an ash tray (and smelled like it also). If it is possible I can only imagine the time and effort. IMO.. a huge waste of man power. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Critic Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 Yes, 450 million probably could be put to better use. I just doubt that it actually would. I just find it funny that every politician in Washington and New York uses the memory of those victims for their own agendas, then conveniently pisses on the memory when the mood strikes them. Extend that to people in general if you want to - one day 9/11 is a tragedy, the next day it's a reason to sell a cheap-ass flag or coin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CubKilla Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 You think they would be able to tell the difference..?? If it is possible I can only imagine the time and effort. IMO.. a huge waste of man power. Yes. You'd probably be quite shocked at how and where they can get DNA from with the tests available to forensic researchers now-a-days. Thus the $450 million price tag. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FlaSoxxJim Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I don't want to think anyone is pissing on the memory, but rather balking at the reality that something undoable was promised at the time by people who wouldn't actually be doing the sorting. The report says that forensic work is ongoing on the largest body fragments and those are to be returned to the families on identification. If I read it right, any unidentified remains would be put into a WTC memorial. As far as DNA work on ashes... if the remains are fully reduced then it can't be done. But certainly the remains from WTC include a lot of charred but incompletely reduced remains that DNA can be extracted and amplified from (at very great expense). I think the decision to use Fresh Kills as the dump site was regrettable, but I understand decisions had to be made rapidly. Had there been an opportunity to create a new site for WTC debris AND unidentified victim remains, then that could have served as a victim memorial site without having to worry about the century-old stink of Fresh Kills and how that might affect the family's acceptance of a dump site as a memorial (go figure). At the end of the day, I side with those of you that think the memory of the lives of these people is a lot more important that spending a half-billion dollars sorting ashes (then again, this is coming from a person who would like his remains used as chum rather than burnt to a crisp and all that energy-potential wasted so...). Maybe if WTC-tall flagpole-type memorials were erected over in Staten Island that could be seen from Ground Zero, it could serve as an effective monument to the remains without suggesting people need to go to Fresh Kills and walk around the dump to see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IlliniBob72 Posted October 12, 2004 Share Posted October 12, 2004 I understand that people grieving don't always think rationally. What I think these mourning families need to come to grips with is that their loved ones are gone, period. The one mother said she doesn't want her son spending eternity in some landfill (Didn't Stinky Pete in Toy Story 2 say that line?). She needs to realize that her son is in a better place and just the charred ashes of a body are in a landfill. If I lost a loved one and spent more than a few minutes thinking about worms and maggots feasting on their decaying corpse in a cemetery, I would go nuts. Whether the ashes spend the rest of time in a garbage dump or or rotting in a coffin, the end result is the same. Your loved one is gone and you need to remember them as they lived, perpetuate their memory, and move on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 I think you're missing the point. These people were promised something by the city. If the city said - we can't afford to do this, or its just not possible - I don't think the outrage would be there. But the promises were made and not realized. They weren't just not realized either. Picture this, the government promises to give you some form of your loved one's remains and then says "I'm sorry, it's too expensive, we're just gonna throw it on the old city dump instead." How would you feel? They could have placed this just about anywhere but a landfill and this outrage wouldn't have happened. Instead, people wanting to visit the final resting place of whatever human remains were left of these people have to climb a stinky diaper mountain. Its f***ing ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 I don't see it that way at all. They were promised a memorial and they are getting that. Yes, they may have been promised the remains - but s*** happens - and it's too expensive. Like I said a few weeks ago in another analogy.. my boss promised me a bigger office and a larger raise.. revenues didn't hit and the office was needed by IT... s*** happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Kickass Posted October 13, 2004 Author Share Posted October 13, 2004 Im just pissed off they're in a landfill instead of creating something real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted October 13, 2004 Share Posted October 13, 2004 Im just pissed off they're in a landfill instead of creating something real. They are creating something real... a real memorial at the site of the former WTC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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