rather than vizquel

[jackie hayes]

Just curious...is it crazy for me to suggest signing BOTH Polanco and Vizquel?

 

Put Omar at SS, Polanco at 2B, and Uribe at 3B, while trading Crede as a part of a package for a solid group of players and bringing in another power hitter of some type.

 

Can't say exactly what the lineup would be, not knowing how much the Sox would have available to spend on others and who would still be available...but even if we got Jose Guillen while trading Paulie, we'd be in good shape.

 

Hypothetically, this could be the lineup...

 

Vizquel - SS

Rowand - CF

Thomas - DH

Lee - LF

Guillen - RF

Uribe - 3B

Gload - 1B

Polanco - 2B

Davis/Burke - C

 

You will probably get good power numbers out of the 2-7 spots in the lineup, and good averages from 1-8.

 

Maybe I'm just thinking too far outside the box right now...but I think it could be something crazy enough to maybe work.

 

Anyone else got any thoughts on that idea?

Supposing these were the players, why would you not have Polanco towards the top of the order? He doesn't k too often, he draws walks, he has a good obp, and I believe he's usually been a #2 hitter (in a pretty good lineup in Philly).

[israel4ever]

Welcome to 3rd place in the AL Central for the next 2 years.

Yep.

[israel4ever]

Your absolutely right, it is way too early to give up on Joe Crede. Give him a chance to fix those holes in his swing. I'll take his defense at 3rd any day.

Crede has shown ZERO signs of improvement over the last 3-4 seasons. There is no reason to think he'll be any better than he was last year, which IMO, isn't good enough.

[Guest JimH]

Crede has shown ZERO signs of improvement over the last 3-4 seasons. There is no reason to think he'll be any better than he was last year, which IMO, isn't good enough.

Hmmm ... zero improvement?

 

His fielding % has gotten better every year. His power numbers (HR) have increased every year. He drew more walks this year vs. 2003 in fewer at bats.

 

He's not improved as much as fans had hoped, or likely management either. But to say he's had zero improvement is, well, incorrect.

[israel4ever]

Hmmm ... zero improvement?

 

His fielding % has gotten better every year.  His power numbers (HR) have increased every year. He drew more walks this year vs. 2003 in fewer at bats.

 

He's not improved as much as fans had hoped, or likely management either.  But to say he's had zero improvement is, well, incorrect.

Has he improved enough to the point where you don't think the Sox can get better at 3B?

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Just a thought about Willie's lack of stolen bases.

Willie is the only fast guy on our team. How many times did we see them throwing over like 10 times to 1B whenever Willie was on base.

It's alot easier to steal when your team has more then one realistic stolen base threat. If your the only one on your team then the other team can focus on you.

Also just because Willie doesn't steal bases doesn't mean his speed isn't valuable. Noone steals from 1st on a single or double better then Willie.

Not only that but does Willie's .262 average and .343 OBP really look so horrible in the 9th spot? Especially considering how good he is defensively.

[israel4ever]

Just a thought about Willie's lack of stolen bases.

Willie is the only fast guy on our team. How many times did we see them throwing over like 10 times to 1B whenever Willie was on base.

It's alot easier to steal when your team has more then one realistic stolen base threat. If your the only one on your team then the other team can focus on you.

Also just because Willie doesn't steal bases doesn't mean his speed isn't valuable. Noone steals from 1st on a single or double better then Willie.

Not only that but does Willie's .262 average and .343 OBP really look so horrible in the 9th spot? Especially considering how good he is defensively.

Willie seemed very tentative on the base paths to me.

 

It seemed like he was scared to mess up.

[Rex Hudler]

Has he improved enough to the point where you don't think the Sox can get better at 3B?

I think Crede will surprise you and become a solid player for the Sox. I am not touting him as a perennial all-star, but yes, I think he will be fine.

[israel4ever]

I think Crede will surprise you and become a solid player for the Sox.  I am not touting him as a perennial all-star, but yes, I think he will be fine.

Since the Sox will probably keep him, I hope you're right.

 

[GoodAsGould]

think we can turn back to the subject of the post back to polanco instead of arguments over crede and willie.... and crede will be your starting 3B next year no matter which way you look at it

[Guest JimH]

Has he improved enough to the point where you don't think the Sox can get better at 3B?

Think in terms of reality, see if you can do that. I know it's your personal unrealistic philosophy that they should sign every available free agent or trade for every player you think is better, but there's the small issue of what you have to give up for said players. Not only that, but ensuring what you're trading matches up with what the other team wants.

 

Like I said, it's a lot easier from the peanut gallery.

[qwerty]

Just a thought about Willie's lack of stolen bases.

Willie is the only fast guy on our team. How many times did we see them throwing over like 10 times to 1B whenever Willie was on base.

It's alot easier to steal when your team has more then one realistic stolen base threat. If your the only one on your team then the other team can focus on you.

Also just because Willie doesn't steal bases doesn't mean his speed isn't valuable. Noone steals from 1st on a single or double better then Willie.

Not only that but does Willie's .262 average and .343 OBP really look so horrible in the 9th spot? Especially considering how good he is defensively.

Actually they threw over to first more for timo which is just sad. Timo distracts the pitchers very well, willie on the other hand does not.

[israel4ever]

Think in terms of reality, see if you can do that.  I know it's your personal unrealistic philosophy that they should sign every available free agent or trade for every player you think is better, but there's the small issue of what you have to give up for said players.  Not only that, but ensuring what you're trading matches up with what the other team wants.

 

Like I said, it's a lot easier from the peanut gallery.

Way to ignore the question, AGAIN!

 

:headshake

[1549]

The more I read, the more I think we are going to have a very 'blah' team in 2005

[GoodAsGould]

nah i think realistically that we can sign placido polanco and prob a guy like russ ortiz... who wont be good but is far better then marching a minor leaguer out there every 5th day... i also think we will make a fair run at beltran and if that happens konerko is gone to shed the payroll.. because carlos lee is a much better ozzie ball player..

 

and as far as our outfield being crowded we can always go with lee, beltran, and rowand starting next year... if rowand sucks then we got brian anderson to play in RF and if rowand proves he is the real deal we just dont have to pick up Clee's option next year

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Willie seemed very tentative on the base paths to me.

 

It seemed like he was scared to mess up.

Wouldn't you be too if every time you turned around you were being benched for a slumping power hitter who would swing for the fences, swing at horrible pitches, and barely be able to crack the mendoza line.

Not to mention strike out half the time. I think you know who I'm taking about.

[qwerty]

nah i think realistically that we can sign placido polanco and prob a guy like russ ortiz... who wont be good but is far better then marching a minor leaguer out there every 5th day...

I would rather not waste the money on ortiz and trot out a 5th starter. Russ ortiz would get rocked in the american league and specifically here.

[GoodAsGould]

yeah im not saying im for russ ortiz but i think KW likes him and I think KW see's him as a guy that can be a solid 3... i personally do not.. but he did have a nice run in the middle of the season for the braves

[GoodAsGould]

Wouldn't you be too if every time you turned around you were being benched for a slumping power hitter who would swing for the fences, swing at horrible pitches, and barely be able to crack the mendoza line.

Not to mention strike out half the time. I think you know who I'm taking about.

how many SB's did willie have after that collision with maggz...not positive but seems to me he really stopped stealing bases after that and after brian roberts ran all over us

[whitesox61382]

Crede stays..... 

 

I find it funny that everyone wants to dump Crede because he was so bad this year, yet he had very similar numbers than Uribe.  Uribe had one more hit per week all season long than Crede.  That is the only difference. 

 

Crede actually walked more and struck out less.  Their power numbers were close with a slight edge to Uribe. 

 

My question is, why if Crede has nowhere to go but up, would we want to replace him with Uribe. 

 

Uribe needs to either play 2B or be a super sub again, getting 400-500 AB's filling in between 2B, SS and 3B.

Rex, what do you have against Uribe? Whenever you compare him to another player(Miles, Harris, Vizquel, Crede, ect) you always attempt to point out all of his negatives without mentioning anything he does positively. I love how people try and downplay a significant difference in BA by saying stupid things like, he only had one more hit a week. That is a perfect example of trying to manipulate stats in order to support your opinion. The fact still remains that a difference in BA of .044(.283 vs .239) is significant. You downplay such a significant difference in BA, but do point out that Crede had a whopping 2 more walks than Uribe(most people would call that about even since neither have good plate disipline). Furthermore, I love how you neglect to mention the SIGNIFICANT difference in speed that Uribe has over Crede(not just SB). You can say that numbers aren't the only way to judge a player, but to say that Crede is similar to Uribe(this past season) is just plain stupid. In this case the numbers aren't even close and don't lie.

 

Uribe .283 BA .327 OBP .506 SLG .833 OPS

Crede .239 BA .299 OBP .418 SLG .717 OPS

 

With that said, I do think that the Sox will keep Crede. I also think that he will have a better year. I do think Koskie would be a better fit(more complete player and a lefty bat), if they can get good value for Crede in a trade, but I don't think Uribe should start at 3B. Uribe should start at either 2B or SS, with the other spot being filled by a new addition(leadoff hitter), and Harris being on the bench as a speed and defense guy(where he belongs).

[Rex Hudler]

Rex, what do you have against Uribe? Whenever you compare him to another player(Miles, Harris, Vizquel, Crede, ect) you always attempt to point out all of his negatives without mentioning anything he does positively. I love how people try and downplay a significant difference in BA by saying stupid things like, he only had one more hit a week. That is a perfect example of trying to manipulate stats in order to support your opinion. The fact still remains that a difference in BA of .044(.283 vs .239) is significant. You downplay such a significant difference in BA, but do point out that Crede had a whopping 2 more walks than Uribe(most people would call that about even since neither have good plate disipline). Furthermore, I love how you neglect to mention the SIGNIFICANT difference in speed that Uribe has over Crede(not just SB). You can say that numbers aren't the only way to judge a player, but to say that Crede is similar to Uribe(this past season) is just plain stupid. In this case the numbers aren't even close and don't lie.

 

Uribe .283 BA .327 OBP .506 SLG .833 OPS

Crede .239 BA .299 OBP .418 SLG .717 OPS

 

With that said, I do think that the Sox will keep Crede. I also think that he will have a better year. I do think Koskie would be a better fit(more complete player and a lefty bat), if they can get good value for Crede in a trade, but I don't think Uribe should start at 3B. Uribe should start at either 2B or SS, with the other spot being filled by a new addition(leadoff hitter), and Harris being on the bench as a speed and defense guy(where he belongs).

You seem to have this obsession with me and Uribe. Just because I am not ready to annoint him a future all-star, you pick apart everything I post about him.

 

Do I not say that he should get 400-500 AB's? I happen to think that the Sox will be a better team is Uribe is in that role. You disagree. BFD.

 

Let's just wait and see what happens. I am not going to get into another stupid argument with you here. I think in two years, Crede is a much better player than Uribe. Maybe I will be wrong, but I don't think there is THAT big of a difference now. Uribe waas better in 2004. I have no problem saying that.

 

Quote all the numbers you want to make you sound good. I'll stick with my own judgement and we'll eventually see who is right.

[whitesox61382]

Hmmm ... zero improvement?

 

His fielding % has gotten better every year.  His power numbers (HR) have increased every year. He drew more walks this year vs. 2003 in fewer at bats.

 

He's not improved as much as fans had hoped, or likely management either.  But to say he's had zero improvement is, well, incorrect.

Come on Jim, you are really nitpicking. His fielding % improved by .001(.964 vs .965). IMO you really can't say that is an improvement since the difference is so small. Furthermore, his range stats both decreased by a much larger difference than .001(although I am not a big fan of RF or ZF), so making an arguement that his fielding improved really doesn't hold water. I would say that it remained the same, which is still above average. Saying that his power numbers increased doesn't hold water either. Sure he hit 2 more HR in 46 fewer AB's, but his extra base hits per AB decreased(10.3 AB/EBH in 2003 vs 10.7 AB/EBH in 2004). His SLG% also went down(.433 vs .418), so you really can't say that his power improved. He did draw 2 more walks in 46 fewer AB's, but once again that isn't a significant difference and you are really grasping at straws. His SO total increased slightly, and his BB/SO was almost identical from 2003 to 2004, so his plate disipline really didn't improve. I do think Crede will rebound next year and put up a solid year(.270/25/75 is fairly realistic), but you really can't say he has improved in any catogory from 2003 to 2004.

[Guest JimH]

Come on Jim, you are really nitpicking. His fielding % improved by .001(.964 vs .965). IMO you really can't say that is an improvement since the difference is so small. Furthermore, his range stats both decreased by a much larger difference than .001(although I am not a big fan of RF or ZF), so making an arguement that his fielding improved really doesn't hold water. I would say that it remained the same, which is still above average. Saying that his power numbers increased doesn't hold water either. Sure he hit 2 more HR in 46 fewer AB's, but his extra base hits per AB decreased(10.3 AB/EBH in 2003 vs 10.7 AB/EBH in 2004). His SLG% also went down(.433 vs .418), so you really can't say that his power improved. He did draw 2 more walks in 46 fewer AB's, but once again that isn't a significant difference and you are really grasping at straws. His SO total increased slightly, and his BB/SO was almost identical from 2003 to 2004, so his plate disipline really didn't improve. I do think Crede will rebound next year and put up a solid year(.270/25/75 is fairly realistic), but you really can't say he has improved in any catogory from 2003 to 2004.

No doubt he didn't progress as much as anyone wanted.

 

The issue was "zero" improvement in 3-4 years ... I stand by my statement that that is inaccurate.

[whitesox91403]

Crede has shown ZERO signs of improvement over the last 3-4 seasons. There is no reason to think he'll be any better than he was last year, which IMO, isn't good enough.

Actually Crede has only played for 2 1/2 years if memeory serves me correct. I can still remember Robin Ventura's first year with the team when he hit .240? and had 5HR, everyone wanted to give up on him too. I don't see Joe Crede as Scott Rolen, but I do see him as Robin Ventura and that is just fine with me.