israel4ever Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Most of that money has already been spent in Garcia, raise to Buerhle, etc. I have a question for you israel..... The Sox made the playoffs in 2000. They more than doubled their payroll the following offseason. The team suffered because of injuries. But where was the fans commitment? The Sox stepped up, but the fans didn't. Attendance actually went down the following year. Why should the Sox feel like throwing an extra $20 million around would actually help increase attendance and regain those revenues, esp. if they have bad luck and don't win it all?? They would very quickly become the Mets or Orioles unless everything went perfectly. It seems to me the Sox did exactly what you wanted them to do after the 2000 season and it got them squat. I understand whay you're saying; I cannot disagree. But, since 2000 we haven't even sniffed the playoffs, we have to change our strategies. What we've been doing hasn't worked. Some may say I'm whining again, but, facts are facts. You can scream "fiscal responsibility" all you want, but, fiscal resposibility hasn't gotten the Sox anywhere. Someone once said something to the effect that "the sign of insanity is repeating the same procedure over and over and expecting different results.". IMHO, the Sox have been guilty of this since current ownership took over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I understand whay you're saying; I cannot disagree. But, since 2000 we haven't even sniffed the playoffs, we have to change our strategies. What we've been doing hasn't worked. Some may say I'm whining again, but, facts are facts. You can scream "fiscal responsibility" all you want, but, fiscal resposibility hasn't gotten the Sox anywhere. Someone once said something to the effect that "the sign of insanity is repeating the same procedure over and over and expecting different results.". IMHO, the Sox have been guilty of this since current ownership took over. Some might say an example of insanity would be the White Sox overspending on payroll and watching attendance drop again! You have to realiiize this....... the teams you always cite that have high payrolls, have them for a reason. Not because their owner wants to win, but because they have the revenues to support them. Anaheim was able to increase payroll because of a combination of a new owner and success (i.e. increased revenues) with the World Series win. But note, they won the WS BEFORE they piled on the payroll. Baltimore has always had great fan support. It had dropped some the past couple of years, but even at its worst was a half million higher than the Sox. Plus they had attendance of over 3 million 9 out of 10 years in a row. They revenues are there. The Mets are just stupid and throw money against a wall hoping something will stick. They spend money like crazy because they share a market with the Yankess. The bottom line is that if you and others want the Sox to make a bigger commitment, then you need to go to the ballpark. You need to talk friends into going. Bring your neighbors. The more the merrier. Don't get me wrong there is a lot the Sox organization can do better and I think they shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. But until revenues begin to increase, player payroll is not going to skyrocket. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 What about the other player increases? It's fine to want to spend, but you have to be reasonable. I'm fine with trading Lee if it means acquiring Beltran, especially with Anderson and Sweeney on their way. Would it really make much sense though to sign Beltran, move Rowand to right. Then turn around and trade Lee. We might as well just keep Lee and use the money we'd save by not getting Beltran (which would be able 7 Mil by the way) to sign a servicable RF and a closer) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Some might say an example of insanity would be the White Sox overspending on payroll and watching attendance drop again! You have to realiiize this....... the teams you always cite that have high payrolls, have them for a reason. Not because their owner wants to win, but because they have the revenues to support them. Anaheim was able to increase payroll because of a combination of a new owner and success (i.e. increased revenues) with the World Series win. But note, they won the WS BEFORE they piled on the payroll. Baltimore has always had great fan support. It had dropped some the past couple of years, but even at its worst was a half million higher than the Sox. Plus they had attendance of over 3 million 9 out of 10 years in a row. They revenues are there. The Mets are just stupid and throw money against a wall hoping something will stick. They spend money like crazy because they share a market with the Yankess. The bottom line is that if you and others want the Sox to make a bigger commitment, then you need to go to the ballpark. You need to talk friends into going. Bring your neighbors. The more the merrier. Don't get me wrong there is a lot the Sox organization can do better and I think they shoot themselves in the foot sometimes. But until revenues begin to increase, player payroll is not going to skyrocket. I think you have it backwards, if/when the Sox make the committment, the fans will come. How do you convice friends and neighbors to go, if the product is average, at best? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 ok i think everyone is a little sick of the argument between you 2 so how about you both stop acting like children and stop it... does it really matter that much to both of you who gets the last post in? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 This is going to far... We need to get back on topic here people! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 :headshake Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Oh boy Cheat's gonna love this. Timo Perez Williams on Perez: "A lot of people don't know that he played most of the season hurt. He has a little foot issue that limited his speed. He never complained, took his role, was a positive influence on the club, especially with Juan Uribe in particular, and Timo had some big hits." Fearless Forecast: The Sox will try to avoid arbitration and get a deal done with Perez, making him a key reserve again. This much I will say about Timo, he seems to be a good clubhouse guy, who's willing to anything that's asked of him.... That being said, most of my heat for him come from all the praise that Hawk and DJ draped on the guy.... He played below the level of a replacemt (AAA) player, and yet because of some clutch hits and defensive plays, he's going to be rewarded. You never remember the guy who walks in front of the HR, the guys who hits a two out double to start a rally, yet they are just as important as the guy who actually drives them in. Joe Crede was bad this season, yet we all remember his 5(maybe 6?) walk-offs. Does that make it a good season? NO -- If he had played better, he probably would have had less walk-offs, because we would have been ahead in due to run created by him getting on-base more often. And we certainly would have won more games because of him being on base more... Timo Perez is the same way, he cost this team runs last year because of his inability to hit, hit for any power, or get on base at a decent rate. I could care less about those few clutch hits... As I said in the blog before, I expect him to be back. It will pain me if that guy gets a multi-year deal. $1M bench player are supposed to be productive. They should bring me in for arbitration. I'm sure I'll put together a good case for the White Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelasDaddy0427 Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Timo's problem IMO is that he gets lazy. When he is into the game and focused then he is a grinder and just what we need. However when he slacks off then he ends up slumping, becoming lazy on the basepaths, and becomes suspect of defense. I don't mind him off the bench but I agree that he didn't deserve most of the praise that was draped upon him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AddisonStSox Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Define Thread Killing... :headshake Now, some baseball talk... 1)How right-on were Ozzie's points? Believe it or not guys, he knows the score. 2)Beltran may not be the answer. He might be...but, the thought of throwing all that money at one guy scares me at this point in time. 3)Attention all Reed-Boosters, help is on the way in Anderson and Sweeney. Anderson is for real...very similar to Rowand. Gamer. Overall, I think KW and, I'll even go as far as saying, Ozzie have a solid plan of attack. Now, lets sit back and watch KW screw it up! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 I think you have it backwards, if/when the Sox make the committment, the fans will come. How do you convice friends and neighbors to go, if the product is average, at best? Do you just ignore everything I post??? The Sox DID make the commitment in 2001, more than doubling their payroll. Attendance went down. Until you can give good reason why that would not happen again, the precedent has been set. Your problem is that you can't freakin relax and have a good time. MOST don't go to a baseball game just because the team has a chance to win the World Series. MOST go to a game because it is fun. Because they enjoy spending a night out with friends. Like I said, some people enjoy being miserable. I have no reason to think that you do not fall into that category. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 some clutch hits Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rex Hudler Posted October 17, 2004 Share Posted October 17, 2004 Once again, if Restaurant X has bad food, do you keep going back there if the owner promises that it will get better when more people go there? You talk about supply and demand, but don't understand the concepts. If Restaurant X were the only restaurant in town, you might view it differently. However, the supply with restaurants is that there is one on every other corner, so you have many choices and not going back to Restaurant X is easy. Comparing a MLB team and a restaurant does not work. The economic factors are quite different. Nice try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvilMonkey Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 MOST don't go to a baseball game just because the team has a chance to win the World Series. MOST go to a game because it is fun. Because they enjoy spending a night out with friends. AMEN to that! I just want to know my team has a chance to win while I am there to entertain me. The rest is just a bonus! Do I want my team to be in the Series? Hell Yes! Is that the single criteria that decides whether or not I spend my money? Hell no. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 yeah i dont make it out to the white sox games as much as i like too... hell b4 this season the last game i was at was a cubs one :puke but this year i went to 5 of them and even during the ones we lost i enjoyed myself.. i just cant stand the people that b**** about the team and dont go to the ball park.... if you want to complain you got to be a customer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 Do you just ignore everything I post??? The Sox DID make the commitment in 2001, more than doubling their payroll. Attendance went down. Until you can give good reason why that would not happen again, the precedent has been set. Your problem is that you can't freakin relax and have a good time. MOST don't go to a baseball game just because the team has a chance to win the World Series. MOST go to a game because it is fun. Because they enjoy spending a night out with friends. Like I said, some people enjoy being miserable. I have no reason to think that you do not fall into that category. Rex...I can see your point. There are lots of "fans" sitting in the bleachers at Wrigley who aren't even aware that there's a ballgame going on. I don't want to discuss this any further. My entire point is (and has been) that whatever ownership has done since taking over the team HAS NOT WORKED! It is time to develop an alternate strategy. When I was asked what I would do, my answer was simple...identify the "holes" in the ballclub, and fill them WITH THE BEST PLAYERS AVAILABLE WITH WHICH TO DO SO. How does that make me negative? Unhappy? Miserable? You know the old adage, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."? Guess what? It's broke! It has been broke. It's time to fix it. Peace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 You talk about supply and demand, but don't understand the concepts. If Restaurant X were the only restaurant in town, you might view it differently. However, the supply with restaurants is that there is one on every other corner, so you have many choices and not going back to Restaurant X is easy. Comparing a MLB team and a restaurant does not work. The economic factors are quite different. Nice try. Yeah...and there are 2 major league teams in Chicago, and whether or not JR wants to admit it, the Sox are in competition with the cubs. If JR realizes who is competition is, and is not willing to compete with them, then maybe it's time ownership sold the team to someone who is willing to do what it takes to bring championship caliber baseball to the South Side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 identify the "holes" in the ballclub, and fill them WITH THE BEST PLAYERS AVAILABLE WITH WHICH TO DO SO. So are all the other teams in the Major League. You want us to have a payroll with the likes of the Yankees and the Mets. That's not going to happen. And what happens if you sign a player to a big fat contract (Albert Belle anyone?), and the deal comes back to blow up right in your face. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 So are all the other teams in the Major League. You want us to have a payroll with the likes of the Yankees and the Mets. That's not going to happen. And what happens if you sign a player to a big fat contract (Albert Belle anyone?), and the deal comes back to blow up right in your face. What's the alternative? We sign nobody, and every 5 years we start another 5-year rebuilding plan? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 What's the alternative? We sign nobody, and every 5 years we start another 5-year rebuilding plan? What's your definition of nobody. In the past year we've acquired Freddy Garcia, Jose Contreras, Juan Uribe, and Shingo Takatsu. It's not like KW and Co. are sitting on thier asses doing nothing during the winter except twiddling their thumbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 What's your definition of nobody. In the past year we've acquired Freddy Garcia, Jose Contreras, Juan Uribe, and Shingo Takatsu. It's not like KW and Co. are sitting on thier asses doing nothing during the winter except twiddling their thumbs. True. Those acquisitions have been okay. But, they are not superstar caliber players, or even players around which you build a championship caliber team. They are complementary players. The Sox need a 5th starter; why go after another team's #5, when you can sign another team's #1, and plug him into our rotation? We shop at Target, other teams shop at Bloomingdales. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 well, to be fair, they only signed shingo and uribe in the winter (and politte). they turned out be good moves, but: 1. they didn't make the team significantly better,and 2. they generated no interest among potential customers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 True. Those acquisitions have been okay. But, they are not superstar caliber players, or even players around which you build a championship caliber team. They are complementary players. The Sox need a 5th starter; why go after another team's #5, when you can sign another team's #1, and plug him into our rotation? We shop at Target, other teams shop at Bloomingdales. How many players are out there who are "championship caliber players". It's not like you can dial a 1800 number and sign one like that. Teams that have these type of players aren't going to give them up easily at all. The Sox are going to try and sign a #1 starter this off-season, and they should be able with the likes of Pavano, Perez, Pedro, Radke and Lowe on the FA market. I wouldn't say many teams in this league would shop at Bloomingdale's either, it's not like we're in a minority or anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchetman Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 you need to shop at target AND bloomingdales to get what you need. i'd be pleasantly surprised if we signed a pavano/radke-type of pitcher. like i mentioned before it's been 8 years since we signed a significant FA in the offseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
israel4ever Posted October 18, 2004 Share Posted October 18, 2004 well, to be fair, they only signed shingo and uribe in the winter (and politte). they turned out be good moves, but: 1. they didn't make the team significantly better,and 2. they generated no interest among potential customers. BINGO!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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