aboz56 Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 With all of the b****ing and complaining you hear from the Red Sox and their fans about how the Yankees buy all of their players, some research was necessary. And after it was completed, some FACTS came out.... On their active playoff roster, the Red Yankees have ONE, I repeat ONE, home grown player who came up through their system. This player, a relatively unimportant one I may add, was Troty Nixon (who, during the regular season, was hurt most of the year.) The Yankees, aka the evil empire on the other hand, have Jorge Posada, Derek Jeter, Mariano Rivera and Bernie Williams, all home grown Yankee products. The most ironic part in all of this is that Red Sox fans are supposedly some of the most "intelligent fans" in all of baseball. Yet constantly, even from some of their fans who lurk around here, we hear about the Yankees buying championships. Let's see here... Manny Ramirez? Bought. Johnny Damon? Bought. Orlando Cabrera? Bought. Mark Bellhorn? Bought. David Ortiz? Bought. Pedro Martinez? Bought. Curt Schilling? Bought. Keith Foulke? Bought. And the list goes on... So as we enter this World Series, root for the team with the best homegrown players, the Cardinals and Albert Pujols. :fyou Red Yankees. (This message was brought to you by the committee to destroy Red Sox nation and their b****y fans.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wise Master Buehrle Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 While I generally agree with you, the Cardinals stars, Renteria, Edmonds, Walker, Rolen, Sanders, Womack, they're all bought. But I am rooting for the Cards because I dislike the Red Sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aboz56 Posted October 23, 2004 Author Share Posted October 23, 2004 While I generally agree with you, the Cardinals stars, Renteria, Edmonds, Walker, Rolen, Sanders, Womack, they're all bought. But I am rooting for the Cards because I dislike the Red Sox. You are right, but if you go through major league rosters, I guarantee the Red Sox lead the way with the fewest homegrown players with one. And I'm pretty sure the Yankees would be second (and they have at least 3 more.) So to Red Sox nation, here's to more years of the CURSE! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxFanForever Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 The majority of their pitching staff is from trades or free agency as well. That is just the atmosphere of current baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POTUSChris Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Thanks for the info, aboz. That's more I can use against my roommate who suddenly thinks she's a Red Sox expert. Go Cardinals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 While I agree in general with your post, some of your points do not make sense. Cabrera and Mientkiewicz are not home grown, but they received both of them with home-grown talent(Nomar). And Bellhorn cost them practically nothing. You are also not counting Derek Lowe and Jason Varitek, both of whom I believe they got for Heathcliff Slocumb. David Ortiz was a very cheap, $1 mill pickup for them, and he turned to gold. And most of their bench and pen is just cheap FA, waiver-wire, trade a nobody for pickups(Leskanic, Myers, Timlin, Kapler, and probably more that are not coming to mind right now). And, FWIW...Arroyo is also home grown talent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knightni Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 The state of baseball today is ALL about who is bought. Nearly every World Series championship in the last 10 years has been bought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 And, FWIW...Arroyo is also home grown talent. unless you count claiming him off waivers in 2003, no he's not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 unless you count claiming him off waivers in 2003, no he's not. Whoops. Still...claimed off waivers. It's not like he was bought with big bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitesoxin' Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Yeah I'm sick of the Red Sox b****ing and crying. They are just the AL version of the Cubs. Let's go Cardinals! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jackie hayes Posted October 23, 2004 Share Posted October 23, 2004 Just watching the introductions, and I realized -- really Ellis Burks should be counted as homegrown. The Red Sox drafted him, then developed him, before he left for a spell. It doesn't really change what you're saying, of course. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chisox05 Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Yeah I'm sick of the Red Sox b****ing and crying. They are just the AL version of the Cubs. Let's go Cardinals! No, they are alot different than the cubs, the bosox have had many many good teams and have had many chances to win a world series since 1918. The cubs however have had very very few competitive teams. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WilliamTell Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 No, they are alot different than the cubs, the bosox have had many many good teams and have had many chances to win a world series since 1918. The cubs however have had very very few competitive teams. Yep............Cubs Suck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 No, they are alot different than the cubs, the bosox have had many many good teams and have had many chances to win a world series since 1918. The cubs however have had very very few competitive teams. Red Sox - 4 World Championships, 8 Pennants, 14 Playoff Appearances Cubs - 2 World Championships, 10 Pennants, 14 Playoff Appearances Whoops Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 I think you are being a little harsh on the Red Sox. Yes, their spending ability is higher than virtually every team, but in my book they are not on the same level as the Yankees. True, they have very few home grown players, but that is at least as much affected by a weak farm system as their spending habits. I believe that the real thing to look at is how many of their players were acquired after they became a quality established player. Yes, they have several that were(Manny, Damon, Pedro, Schilling, Foulke), but most of their pen and lineup were not highly sought after when they acquired them(I'm not counting Cabrera or Mientkeiwitz since they traded Nomar, a homegrown guy, to get them). If you look at the Yankees, they are far worse. Giambi, A-Rod, Sheffield, Vasquez, Brown, Mussina, basically every bullpen guy(not all stars, but they were expensive) and to a degree Matsui were all acquired not only as established players but in most cases stars. The Yankees get several of the top free agents on a yearly basis, while the Red Sox typically add one and a couple of role players. I personally have nothing against the Red Sox, but the Yankees are pissing me off, even if they lost. They are the only team in the league that could still make the playoffs and win a series with the poor performances of so many expensive players. They had a $16 mil a year pitcher post a 4.59 ERA(Mussina), another pitcher in the same price range only pitching 22 games and posting an ERA over 4 when healthy(Brown), a $12 mil player hitting .262(Williams), a $12 and a half mil player playing only 80 games and barely hitting .200(Giambi), and another $9 mil starter putting up an ERA of almost 5(Vasquez). I shudder to think of what they would have done with everyone performing to their pay level. If they sign Beltran, I might have to give up on baseball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SnB Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Cardinals have always been my 2nd favorite team, therefore go cardinals. i couldn't care less to about boston. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 The Red Sox farm system stinks. They don't care about developing talent. They have gotten really good the last few years because they HAVE INDEED bought talent -- Ramirez, Damon, Schilling, Foulke -- four of the 8 most important players on the team. Sure they have a few pieces they traded for. But the basis of the point is DEAD ON. (Actually a second home grown guy is Kevin Youkilis.) They've jacked the payroll up way beyond everybody but the Yankees. They are the Yankees Lite. Their home grown guys are the Adam Everetts and Donnie Sadlers and Michael Colemans and Dernell Stinsons and Steve Lomanseys and Tony Blancos who have done little in the big leagues. Theo Epstein hasn't put them over the top. George Washington has. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rudy Law Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Theo Epstein hasn't put them over the top. George Washington has. I disagree that dollars have brought the Yankees, and Cardinals for that matter success. Just throwing cash at the hottest FA's doesn't win championships. Look at David Ortiz. Anybody could have had this guy. And he may be their MVP. They basically traded Nomar for Cabrera, which based solely on career stats and marketing/season tix purposes could have been questionable. Millar was almost headed to Japan when they got him. He was a back-up Marlin! Bill Mueller was a batting champ last year. Who the hell was Bill Mueller? They got Bellhorn for his OBP/SLG, and Roberts for situational speed. They had a plan, and stuck to it. Whe they did make a bone-headed move, like Byung-Hyun Kim for Hillenbrand...they didn't kill themselves by insisting the player would turn around. Look how many times the Yanks started Loaiza when he was tanking. When Our Sox do something that doesn't work....we beat up ourselves trying to justify that investment. We all knew Billy Koch sucked before this season started. But we blew some games anyway.... We knew Mike Caruso wouldn't work, and some of you seem to be really tired of Willie Harris. I think Crede has to go. Undoubtedly, the Red Sox success is partially due to their financial flexibility and liberal ownership. Ramirez was a product of the prior owner/GM and they put him on irrevocable waivers!!!! That takes balls, especially since he's an NY native. They passed up A-Rod over a few mil. Yes, they have an outrageous payroll and that makes it easy, but this is a smart well-run orginization that we should really try to learn from...particularly as it relates to identifying players under-utilized by other organizations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 The Red Sox farm system stinks. They don't care about developing talent. They have gotten really good the last few years because they HAVE INDEED bought talent -- Ramirez, Damon, Schilling, Foulke -- four of the 8 most important players on the team. Sure they have a few pieces they traded for. But the basis of the point is DEAD ON. (Actually a second home grown guy is Kevin Youkilis.) They've jacked the payroll up way beyond everybody but the Yankees. They are the Yankees Lite. Their home grown guys are the Adam Everetts and Donnie Sadlers and Michael Colemans and Dernell Stinsons and Steve Lomanseys and Tony Blancos who have done little in the big leagues. Theo Epstein hasn't put them over the top. George Washington has. Money certainly helps matters, but you still have to make the right moves. Plus the Yankees and Red Sox had the good fortune of having money to spend after contract values went down, making it a little easier to get guys like Schilling, Foulke, Sheffield, and Vazquez. The Dodgers(better this year) and Mets have both struggled the past couple of years despite high payrolls, and Baltimore has taken on some nasty deals in the recent past, and they were stuck with those deals after the market readjusted. Imagine if the Dodgers could have taken the almost $45 mil they spent on Green, Dreifort, Nomo and Hundley and spent it on the free agent market last season. The Dodgers could have had Vlad and Tejada with enough money to spare to get a starting pitcher, maybe two. The Mets could do even more damage if they could drop the contracts of Mo Vaughn, Mike Piazza(good, but not worth more than $16 mil), Glavine(worth $10 mil? not in my book), Leiter(same), and Hidalgo(aren't paying all of his salary, but still a good chunk). Those 5 guys are making over $66 mil. As I said earlier, I truely believe that only the Yankees could have that much money invested in underacheivers and still succeed. They have about $65 mil invested in Mussina, Brown, Giambi, Vazquez and Williams, which would make up more than half of any other team's payroll. I agree that the Red Sox shouldn't whine as much as they do, but when you have a payroll around $125 mil and are still outgunned in your own division, that's kind of rough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 I really can't blame the Red Sox for their spending. They are, after all, in the same division as the Yankees and have to compete with them. They are doing all they can to stay with and/or beat the Evil Empire. They have the financial means to do so and anything short of giving it their best efforts would make them look like JR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Um...how can we get JR to sign up for this spending club? Welcome to sports...good players chase the dollar. Good owners give them a dollar to chase. I love to see this board now has a thread to channel jealousy and resentment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Um...how can we get JR to sign up for this spending club? Welcome to sports...good players chase the dollar. Good owners give them a dollar to chase. I love to see this board now has a thread to channel jealousy and resentment. Just an observation, I wonder why it is mostly the east coast posters who hold this point of view? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChiSox_Sonix Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Just an observation, I wonder why it is mostly the east coast posters who hold this point of view? Because we are constantly swamped with Yankee and Red Sox bulls*** in the northeast maybe? Just my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1549 Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 Just an observation, I wonder why it is mostly the east coast posters who hold this point of view? Well I know of two east coasters who feel this way, Red&white as well as myself. Red&white is a Red Sox fan and I am a yankee hater. I have been rooting for the Red Sox harder since Red&White was harassed by several posters in the minky thread. I think it is ridiculous to treat a fellow white sox fan that way. Those posters made me feel embarrassed. I was sickened that they forced a fan off the site, and were not punished. Luckily Red&White is back. Aside from spite, I also do not see the wrong in the Red Sox philosophy. They want to treat their fans and they are doing it. It is a business, they could try it the blue jays way and fold like a tent everytime they play the yankees, and only sell 20,000 tix a game. But they don't...more power to them. I despise the yankees because their fans are arrogant and they have won 26 championships. I do not blame them for spending money to win, but dynasties are no fun. As far as red sox fans being dicks...not true. I go to school with a few, I went to four yankee-bosox games this year. I have not encountered a dick red sox fan. Are there a few dick red sox fans...probably, but hey there are even dick white sox fans on this site. They don't stop us from rooting for the white sox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted October 24, 2004 Share Posted October 24, 2004 it's not really something wrong with the Red Sox. What is wrong is the entire system. It's hardly an accident that 7 of the 8 teams that made the playoffs ranked in the top 12 in payroll The Sox really have no room to b**** because Minnesota was behind us in payroll. What's wrong is the system. It's blatantly unfair. Never mind the White Sox. Teams such as the Reds, Pirates, Royals, Brewers have little to no chance to compete, much less win. Yes, the Marlins have delivered twice since 1997. But I view that as more fluke than anything else. Plus, both times they won, they slipped back the next season because they had to dump good players. Until baseball owners and players agree to put some balance into the equation, we're going to get Red Sox Nation (blahhhhh!) and the Evil Empire driven down our throats every October. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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