Deja Vu?

[AddisonStSox]

Again...

 

Johnson is the only draw for the Diamondbacks. He is the only guy putting people in the seats.

 

Unless Arizona is able to field a half-way decent team, with at least one or two main-event players, he won't be going anywhere.

 

Besides, he didn't want to waive his clause around the deadline this year, what makes us think he'd be willing to now.

[whitesox61382]

I'm with you on that one.... Signing another pitcher to a long term deal could really financially trap this team... 

 

MB and FG are signed for 3 more seasons, JC for 2.  adding another long term contract to that would be very risky... 1) if they don't perform to expectations, you can't get rid of the contract. 2) if one of them gets injured, there's $$$ being tied up in a guy who's not even playing.

Thats not true. Pitching is always in demand, even so-so pitchers with semi-big contracts. Look at the past trade deadlines and you see numerous examples. Furthermore, with the depth at starting pitching in the FA market, there is a good chance that some quality pitchers will sign for bargain prices(5-6M/yr). I also doubt that the Sox will spend 8+M/yr on a starter since they do already have a large sum of money invested in current starters. It simple makes more sense for the Sox to go this route instead of giving up a bunch of talent(and opening more holes with no money to address them thanks to Johnson's contract) and taking a risk in Johnson(age/injury will catch up with him sooner or later).

[Gene Honda Civic]

Thats not true. Pitching is always in demand, even so-so pitchers with semi-big contracts. Look at the past trade deadlines and you see numerous examples. Furthermore, with the depth at starting pitching in the FA market, there is a good chance that some quality pitchers will sign for bargain prices(5-6M/yr). I also doubt that the Sox will spend 8+M/yr on a starter since they do already have a large sum of money invested in current starters. It simple makes more sense for the Sox to go this route instead of giving up a bunch of talent(and opening more holes with no money to address them thanks to Johnson's contract) and taking a risk in Johnson(age/injury will catch up with him sooner or later).

I'm sure the Brain Cashman would disagree with you...

 

You can't have everyone on your team locked up in long-term deals. It provides you no flexibility. No ability to react to change.

 

Another pitcher with a long-term contract, and the Sox are buried with almost $50M comitted to the starting staff alone over multiple seasons... It's one thing to have one Albatross of a contract on your roster, it's another to have a flock of them.

[CWSOX45]

You guys can't be serious. This is Randy Johnson we're talking about. He is AN ACE!

 

I understand most peoples concerns about giving up the farm, but honestly guys how much did Boston give up to get Curt Schilling? Besides Fossum and a couple of young minor league pitchers...Jack s***!

 

The D'Backs are looking to cut payroll, Sure we might have to give up one of three (Anderson, Sweeney or McCarthy.) However I think that giving up one of these potential stars is worth getting a PROVEN star.

 

CWSOX45

[santo=dorf]

I'm sure the Brain Cashman would disagree with you...

 

You can't have everyone on your team locked up in long-term deals.  It provides you no flexibility.  No ability to react to change.

 

Another pitcher with a long-term contract, and the Sox are buried with almost $50M comitted to the starting staff alone over multiple seasons... It's one thing to have one Albatross of a contract on your roster, it's another to have a flock of them.

yep.

 

Cashman signed Vazquez to a 4 year $45 million deal, and now they want to move him.

 

oops.

[qwerty]

You guys can't be serious. This is Randy Johnson we're talking about. He is AN ACE!

 

I understand most peoples concerns about giving up the farm, but honestly guys how much did Boston give up to get Curt Schilling? Besides Fossum and a couple of young minor league pitchers...Jack s***!

 

The D'Backs are looking to cut payroll, Sure we might have to give up one of three (Anderson, Sweeney or McCarthy.) However I think that giving up one of these potential stars is worth getting a PROVEN star.

 

CWSOX45

I would not be concerned about giving up 2-3 really good players if he was younger and had more years left on his contract. Because there is no guarantee that we could resign him.

[AddisonStSox]

I would not be concerned about giving up 2-3 really good players if he was younger and had more years left on his contract. Because there is no guarantee that we could resign him.

I wouldn't be too concerned period...Johnson will not be on the Southside next year.

[qwerty]

I wouldn't be too concerned period...Johnson will not be on the Southside next year.

I'm not.

[CWSGuy406]

You would think so but the way arizona is talking is that they want major league ready talent. And alot of it. They never said that with schilling, they just wanted to dump his salary. I don't think they care as much if they get rid of johnson because he is a big draw. Some sucker team will overpay for him he will pitch a few games and be injured for the rest of the year and then they are f***ed for a couple years that is how i see it happening.

I bet you were saying the same thing about Johnson after the 2003 season and after all of his knee problems. Everyone said Johnson was going to break down last year - and what does he do? Come back with a Cy Young-candidate season.

 

I believe over the long haul of the season, consistency is the most important thing. That's why I believe (well, I shouldn't say I believe like I've come up with some magical potion -- this isn't some new theory) a strong bullpen and a consistent offense will get you to the playoffs.

 

But once your there -- that's where the stars shine. If we could throw out Johnson, to Garcia, to Buehrle, for the first three games of a series... Wow. That's awesome right there. Three pitchers, all of pretty different styles - Johnson, the hard throwing lefty, Garcia, the 'good-stuff', pretty hard-throwing righty, and then Mr. Pinpoint Buehrle. Not saying Buehrle doesn't throw hard, but just not in the upper-90's.

 

Opportunities like this don't come up every day. I don't think I've ever said this in particular about one trade/FA rumor -- but I believe that trading for Randy Johnson gives us a World Series caliber team. Honestly.

[Wanne]

A couple of things in regards to some of the posts. Although Johnson is their number 1 draw...they need to cut some payroll under new ownership.

 

Another thing to consider is if they get Sexson back or not. Word is is that he may head to Seattle...thus leaving the door open for Phoenix native Paul Konerko and some pitching.

 

Someone said that why would they want Lee when they have Gonzalez....well.....Gonzalez is coming off elbow surgery and is absolutely abissmal in left. He's better suited with an American League team at this point in his career.

 

I find it hard to believe that the Sox are one of the teams that Johnson would agree to come to...I'd like to see some link or something that states it...but...I think the Sox have some young talent that the DBacks would be interested in...as long as Johnson extend for a couple more years. Geez...look how they got raped in the Schilling deal...that was pathetic.

 

I'd say the chances of him being on the Sox next year or slim to none...

[qwerty]

I bet you were saying the same thing about Johnson after the 2003 season and after all of his knee problems.  Everyone said Johnson was going to break down last year - and what does he do?  Come back with a Cy Young-candidate season.

 

I believe over the long haul of the season, consistency is the most important thing.  That's why I believe (well, I shouldn't say I believe like I've come up with some magical potion -- this isn't some new theory) a strong bullpen and a consistent offense will get you to the playoffs.

 

But once your there -- that's where the stars shine.  If we could throw out Johnson, to Garcia, to Buehrle, for the first three games of a series...  Wow.  That's awesome right there.  Three pitchers, all of pretty different styles - Johnson, the hard throwing lefty, Garcia, the 'good-stuff', pretty hard-throwing righty, and then Mr. Pinpoint Buehrle.  Not saying Buehrle doesn't throw hard, but just not in the upper-90's.

 

Opportunities like this don't come up every day.  I don't think I've ever said this in particular about one trade/FA rumor -- but I believe that trading for Randy Johnson gives us a World Series caliber team.  Honestly.

Like i after i said he only has one year left on his contract and would most likely not resign with us because we cannot offer the most many. He is too old to give up that many players with multiple years on their contracts. I would have probally done it 5 or 6 years ago though. I truly find it hard to believe that deep down he would want to play for us.

[CWSGuy406]

Like i after i said he only has one year left on his contract and would most likely not resign with us because we cannot offer the most many. He is too old to give up that many players with multiple years on their contracts. I would have probally done it 5 or 6 years ago though. I truly find it hard to believe that deep down he would want to play for us.

What players are you talking about that have multiple years left on this contract?

 

Most people on this board aren't condoning trading multiple (current) big league players for Johnson. We're talking about trading Konerko/Lee (each, one year left, IIRC), possibly one of Adkins/Cotts, and a minor leaguer or two.

 

At most, Arizona can have two guys off the big league roster -- the last part of the deal would be based on prospects (again -- just speculating according to most of the people on the board).

 

I still want Rowand here. And I agree with your premise -- that if we were to trade a bunch of big leaguers for Johnson, it wouldn't really help because we'd have created more holes and only filled one by getting our ace.

 

I do this deal if it's along the lines of Konerko, Adkins, Diaz/Munoz, and a lower level prospect.

[Rowand44]

Like i after i said he only has one year left on his contract and would most likely not resign with us because we cannot offer the most many. He is too old to give up that many players with multiple years on their contracts. I would have probally done it 5 or 6 years ago though. I truly find it hard to believe that deep down he would want to play for us.

I understand what you're saying, however I agree with Keith on this one. Getting rj would make this team a legitimate world series contender. Sending rj, freddy, and buehrle out in a series could match up with anyone if not be better then everyone out there depending on what happens in free agency. I know rj is old and I know it's risky cause we'd most likely only have him for a year but that's a risk I'd be willing to take because of how good it would make this starting rotation.

[santo=dorf]

What players are you talking about that have multiple years left on this contract?

 

Most people on this board aren't condoning trading multiple (current) big league players for Johnson.  We're talking about trading Konerko/Lee (each, one year left, IIRC), possibly one of Adkins/Cotts, and a minor leaguer or two.

 

At most, Arizona can have two guys off the big league roster -- the last part of the deal would be based on prospects (again -- just speculating according to most of the people on the board).

 

I still want Rowand here.  And I agree with your premise -- that if we were to trade a bunch of big leaguers for Johnson, it wouldn't really help because we'd have created more holes and only filled one by getting our ace.

 

I do this deal if it's along the lines of Konerko, Adkins, Diaz/Munoz, and a lower level prospect.

Lee has a team option at $8.5 million for 2006.

[beck72]

Don't get me wrong, I would lose to see Johnson on the Sox, but the FA market is very deep when it comes to starting pitching. Why not sign a decent starter for about 6-7M? The Sox would save money that they can use to address other weaknesses. The pitcher they sign will certainly be younger than Johnson, in the prime of his career, and with the Sox for more than 1 year. The Sox wouldn't have to give up current players/prospects, which would create more holes. It just makes more sense(in both the long and short term) for a team like the Sox to sign a starter from the FA market opposed to trading for Johnson.

I agree except there are no bonafide #1's this yr, [maybe Pavano]. It's deep at #3's this year. Yet getting a #3 starter means signing a guy to a long term contract, at least 3 yrs, possibly 4, for $8 mill a yr. Most guys this year are not guaranteed to give a quality start each time out, let alone dominate games like Randy Johnson. There's always the injury factor to consider in giing a guy a long term contract. A 1 yr deal is less risky. And esp less so w/ Johnson

 

The sox already have 3 guys signed for 3 yrs. Why not go for an ace one yr, as long as it doesn't mean financing the future core of the team, just smaller pieces of it? The Sox could have room to sign a true ace next year like Mulder, or resign RJ for 2006.

[qwerty]

What players are you talking about that have multiple years left on this contract?

 

Most people on this board aren't condoning trading multiple (current) big league players for Johnson.  We're talking about trading Konerko/Lee (each, one year left, IIRC), possibly one of Adkins/Cotts, and a minor leaguer or two.

 

At most, Arizona can have two guys off the big league roster -- the last part of the deal would be based on prospects (again -- just speculating according to most of the people on the board).

 

I still want Rowand here.  And I agree with your premise -- that if we were to trade a bunch of big leaguers for Johnson, it wouldn't really help because we'd have created more holes and only filled one by getting our ace.

 

I do this deal if it's along the lines of Konerko, Adkins, Diaz/Munoz, and a lower level prospect.

I am talking about when people suggest lee, garland, diaz/adkins and a minor leaguer for him. That just does not exactly excite me, we would be stuck with at least two more holes than we started with.

[Lefty Of Love]

Some sucker team will overpay for him he will pitch a few games and be injured for the rest of the year and then they are f***ed for a couple years that is how i see it happening.

Justify that.

[jackie hayes]

I agree except there are no bonafide #1's this yr, [maybe Pavano]. It's deep at #3's this year. Yet getting a #3 starter means signing a guy to a long term contract, at least 3 yrs, possibly 4, for $8 mill a yr. Most guys this year are not guaranteed to give a quality start each time out, let alone dominate games like Randy Johnson. There's always the injury factor to consider in giing a guy a long term contract. A 1 yr deal is less risky. And esp less so w/ Johnson

 

The sox already have 3 guys signed for 3 yrs. Why not go for an ace one yr, as long as it doesn't mean financing the future core of the team, just smaller pieces of it? The Sox could have room to sign a true ace next year like Mulder, or resign RJ for 2006.

IMO Pedro's a #1 too, but we won't sign him.

 

I don't know, I think if you want to go for it this year, this is The Move, if it's possible. RJ is just absurd. And we could finally resolve the mystery of the missing mph -- if RJ loses heat, then it will happen to anyone.

 

I still don't see it happening. I doubt Johnson wants to come here, and I doubt the Diamondbacks will be eager to trade him. But if the door's open a little bit, I hope KW beats it down.

[witesoxfan]

I am talking about when people suggest lee, garland, diaz/adkins and a minor leaguer for him. That just does not exactly excite me, we would be stuck with at least two more holes than we started with.

Those holes are much easier to fix then trying to get a bonafide ace.

 

To replace Garland in the rotation, we can sign ELo(and while that is not necessarily a popular idea around here, he never complained, he likes Chicago, probably likes KW and JR for giving him a shot to win the Series, albeit with another team, and he's cheap...he'd probably get us 12-15 wins out of the #5 spot, and there would be no complaints from me). Replacing Lee is a little tougher, but still possible. Jose Guillen is available in trade, you can always stick Gload out in LF(though that makes me cringe even thinking about it), and there are several potential options in FA too(more expensive ones in Moises Alou, Carlos Beltran, JD Drew, among others, cheaper ones who could start, like Marquis Grissom, Jeromy Burnitz, and maybe even Ben Grieve, Brian Jordan, or Gabe Kapler, and cheap ones who could come off the bench in reserve roles, like Quinton McCracken, Todd Hollandsworth, Doug Glanville, among others).

 

Meanwhile, there is 1 Randy Johnson, and 2, maybe 3 potential aces in the FA market(Pedro and Pavano are both very good, but I'm not sure they are aces...Pavano probably is the closest thing to an ace, and I think he ends up in Baltimore or Boston...and Lowe has shown that he can be a very good starter too...other then that, there are not a lot of ace types out there).

 

I think if Arizona would accept a Konerko/Lee, Garland, Diaz, Adkins, plus another prospect not named Sweeney, Anderson, or McCarthy for RJ, you do it in a heartbeat. And I think I have mentioned enough reasons for why I would make a Lee and Konerko for RJ trade...Gload as a replacement at 1B plus all the people above who could fill in in the OF.

[qwerty]

Justify that.

Just what i feel will happen, it has happened before and it will happen again. I feel whoever gets either pedro or randy will regret it.

[qwerty]

Those holes are much easier to fix then trying to get a bonafide ace.

 

To replace Garland in the rotation, we can sign ELo(and while that is not necessarily a popular idea around here, he never complained, he likes Chicago, probably likes KW and JR for giving him a shot to win the Series, albeit with another team, and he's cheap...he'd probably get us 12-15 wins out of the #5 spot, and there would be no complaints from me).  Replacing Lee is a little tougher, but still possible.  Jose Guillen is available in trade, you can always stick Gload out in LF(though that makes me cringe even thinking about it), and there are several potential options in FA too(more expensive ones in Moises Alou, Carlos Beltran, JD Drew, among others, cheaper ones who could start, like Marquis Grissom, Jeromy Burnitz, and maybe even Ben Grieve, Brian Jordan, or Gabe Kapler, and cheap ones who could come off the bench in reserve roles, like Quinton McCracken, Todd Hollandsworth, Doug Glanville, among others). 

 

Meanwhile, there is 1 Randy Johnson, and 2, maybe 3 potential aces in the FA market(Pedro and Pavano are both very good, but I'm not sure they are aces...Pavano probably is the closest thing to an ace, and I think he ends up in Baltimore or Boston...and Lowe has shown that he can be a very good starter too...other then that, there are not a lot of ace types out there).

 

I think if Arizona would accept a Konerko/Lee, Garland, Diaz, Adkins, plus another prospect not named Sweeney, Anderson, or McCarthy for RJ, you do it in a heartbeat. And I think I have mentioned enough reasons for why I would make a Lee and Konerko for RJ trade...Gload as a replacement at 1B plus all the people above who could fill in in the OF.

If we did this trade Konerko/Lee, Garland, Diaz, Adkins for rj. We would be taking on money. Then you expect reinsdorf to dish out money to replace garland, lee, diaz, and adkins. I don't. If we traded for guillen i don't think it would be as cheap as everyone thinks it would be. Moises Alou, Carlos Beltran, JD Drew, would be wat too expensive and the other players you mentioned would just not put up very good numbers.

[witesoxfan]

I just did a little work and came up with an idea that could potentially work...I don't know what people think of it or what the reaction will be, but I think it's a decent team, and while it wouldnt be set, I do think it's reasonable, and goes along with the Ozzieball approach.

 

First of all...I figured that with the numbers we have now, we are at around $62.5 mill total as of right now. If someone wants me to post the numbers I used, I can...I'm just not now because it will take a while to do.

 

Taking that $62.5 mill into account, and realizing that the payroll will increase by $10 mill at the very most, I would sign Vizquel...probably a 2 year deal worth like $9 mill or so($3.5 mill in 05, $4.5 in 06 with an option for 07 or a $1 mill buyout). I'd then trade Lee, Garland, and 3 decent younger players(probably 2 of them being pitchers...for the hell of it, I'll say Adkins and Munoz, and the other is just a decent player who could turn into something nice) for RJ...in doing so, we take on roughly $4 mill or so in payroll. At this point, we are at around $70 mill total.

 

We then take care of the #5 starter spot and sign ELo to a 1 year, $2 mill deal with an option for 06.

 

We then trade Borchard and Diaz to Anaheim for Guillen...not sure they'd accept, but I guess I just assume they may make that move. Maybe I'm wrong in thinking that. The payroll now sits at around $75 mill. That's too much, because there are still holes to fill, so...

 

Konerko is then traded to Baltimore for Hairston, Julio, and Gibbons...I figure in that deal, we save around $3 mill, and we are at around $72 mill. To fill the roster, the payroll goes up a couple notches and we end up at around $74.5 mill or so.

 

Basically, the team is

 

RJ

Garcia

Buehrle

Contreras

Loaiza

 

Shingo, Julio, Marte, Politte, Cotts, and Baj/Grilli/minor leaguer/NRI

 

Hairston - LF

Vizquel - SS

Thomas - DH

Guillen - RF

Gload - 1B

Rowand - CF

Uribe - 2B

Crede - 3B

Davis - C

 

Burke(C, OF, and maybe even 3B and 1B), Harris(2B and OF), Timo(OF), Escobar(OF), and Gibbons(1B and OF) on the bench.

 

I used some very rough general salary numbers for quite a few of the players, so it may not be exact...but I think it's pretty close, and a team like that wouldn't surprise me at all next year.

Edited October 26, 2004 by witesoxfan

[witesoxfan]

I really agree with most things, but I dont think the Angles or O's do either of these trades. Just dont think there fair. Mabye im under vauling Konerko, but I just think that is alot.

You could be right.

 

The Angels have said that they will get rid of Jose Guillen though, so they've dug themself a hole. They no longer have leverage in any deal they make. Even saying that, Cleveland did the same thing with Milton Bradley last year, and they still got a pretty good prospect from LA for him.

 

I think I've seen that KC wants Guillen, but I am not sure how many other teams will have interest in him either. If we have to outbid KC for Guillen, I see no reason why he shouldn't be in a Sox uni next year, other then the fact that he may be a clubhouse problem.

 

Not sure exactly what it would take to get Guillen though to be quite honest...I just threw some names down and was hoping they'd be good.

 

 

As for the O's deal...that's pretty much just the general makings of the deal. They've mentioned that they'd like to add more power to their team, and have also let it be known that Hairston and Julio are available, and it seems that Gibbons has lost a lot of value in the past year or so with injuries and a poor season. He would be just a throw-in type like Ben Davis...and then we hope has a decent season as a backup 1Bman/corner OF type guy. A prospect could be thrown in here or there, or maybe even Gibbons be taken out of the deal(because I would love Hairston and Julio for Konerko, and I'd still even throw in a sweetener in that deal to get it done)

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I could be wrong but I don't think Esteban comes in at $2. I think he will be $3-3.5 unless he comes in at a discount, but that is also a paycut so I'm not sure if he'd be thrilled with that. Just a hunch, but I bet Atlanta is thinking about Loaiza as yet another reclamation project.

[qwerty]

I could be wrong but I don't think Esteban comes in at $2. I think he will be $3-3.5 unless he comes in at a discount, but that is also a paycut so I'm not sure if he'd be thrilled with that. Just a hunch, but I bet Atlanta is thinking about Loaiza as yet another reclamation project.

If some team pays him 3-3.5 million after a year that he posts a 5.70 era they need to be slapped. Alot. The way he pitched this year he shouldn't even get a guaranteed contract.