Vizquel to Sox-2 years, 8 mil?

[redandwhite]

When you find where I said Jose Valenitne was better defesnively than Cabrera, tell me, because I dont think you will find it. I was replying to your constant love of all things Red Sox. You have the collective teams dick SOOO far up your ass, its comical. You know im the not the only one to tell you that on this site. Go over to SOSH if you want to slob on Cabrera's knob some more. Give it a rest.

This thread has nothing to do with the Red Sox. Not one single f***ing thing. Not one. Replying to rip on me solely for being a Red Sox fan is asinine. Is it really necessary for every thing I post to revert back to the Red Sox? Grow up, move on, get a life.

 

Orlando Cabrera as an Expo, or as a Red Sox in everyone whos anyones opinion is double the defensive player that Jose Valentin is.

 

Him being on the Red Sox has nothing to do with this argument. He's an exceptional defensive player, thats all, and until you take off your "tough guy" glasses, your going to continue to be the selfish, no-good, jerk whose opinion counts for nothing.

[witesoxfan]

Orlando Cabrera as an Expo, or as a Red Sox in everyone whos anyones opinion is double the defensive player that Jose Valentin is.

And I still proved that wrong.

 

And it has nothing to do with Orlando Cabrera's uniform. It has to do with statistics and how Jose Valentin typically gets to more balls and produces more outs then Cabrera.

[YASNY]

And I still proved that wrong.

 

And it has nothing to do with Orlando Cabrera's uniform. It has to do with statistics and how Jose Valentin typically gets to more balls and produces more outs then Cabrera.

To add a little something to your case, Cabrera played half the season on a carpet that smooths out those ground balls. Bad hops are almost nonexistant on turf. Had he played all year on a grass infield, his error totals probably would have had a marginal increase.

[whitesox91403]

I don't know if it was mentioned on here, but people tend to forget that Vizquel was actually traded to Seattle last off season for Carlos Guillen, but the trade was rejected because Vizquel failed a physical. Could you imagine Guillen on that Indians team? Although, I would welcome Vizquel here as an upgrade over Valentin, I'm just not sure if he will make an impact or not.

 

If this was already covered on this thread, I apologize, I didn't go back and read all of them.

[qwerty]

I don't know if it was mentioned on here, but people tend to forget that Vizquel was actually traded to Seattle last off season for Carlos Guillen, but the trade was rejected because Vizquel failed a physical. Could you imagine Guillen on that Indians team? Although, I would welcome Vizquel here as an upgrade over Valentin, I'm just not sure if he will make an impact or not.

 

If this was already covered on this thread, I apologize, I didn't go back and read all of them.

There was also a big rumor valentin for guillen straight up. Now that we look back on it that would have been an excellent trade. But who ever knew guillen was gonna absolutely explode.

[DBAHO]

There was also a big rumor valentin for guillen straight up. Now that we look back on it that would have been an excellent trade. But who ever knew guillen was gonna absolutely explode.

Especially when he was traded from one pitchers park to another.

[witesoxfan]

To add a little something to your case, Cabrera played half the season on a carpet that smooths out those ground balls.  Bad hops are almost nonexistant on turf.  Had he played all year on a grass infield, his error totals probably would have had a marginal increase.

While you and I are on the same page in this idea. you could also use the reasoning that the ball plays a lot quicker on turf then it does grass, therefore some balls that are just out of Cabrera's reach in Montreal are playable for Valentin because Valentin plays on grass and not turf.

 

I still stand by my statement that Valentin is the better defender then Cabrera, and that is saying something considering how many people (wrongly) accuse Jose Valentin of being a poor fielder.

[YASNY]

While you and I are on the same page in this idea. you could also use the reasoning that the ball plays a lot quicker on turf then it does grass, therefore some balls that are just out of Cabrera's reach in Montreal are playable for Valentin because Valentin plays on grass and not turf.

 

I still stand by my statement that Valentin is the better defender then Cabrera, and that is saying something considering how many people (wrongly) accuse Jose Valentin of being a poor fielder.

I never understood that point of view. He booted his share, that's for sure, but he got to more than his share that others wouldn't and he rarely, if ever, had mental lapses like taking a cutoff and throwing to the wrong base. Those things do happen in MLB and Jose just did not make those kind of mistakes.

[witesoxfan]

I never understood that point of view.  He booted his share, that's for sure, but he got to more than his share that others wouldn't and he rarely, if ever, had mental lapses like taking a cutoff and throwing to the wrong base.  Those things do happen in MLB and Jose just did not make those kind of mistakes.

Jose has some of the best baseball instincts I have ever seen.

 

I haven't seen a lot, but the point remains. He's a damn fine ball player, who just can't seem to hit above .240

 

I've said before I wouldn't mind Jose coming back, just not as a starter.

[sox-r-us]

The only reason we are getting this guy is because Guillen thinks he can revitalize another latino player because he can relate to these guys

 

I bet anything that if Vizquel was not latino, he is not even called

[SuperSteve]

The only reason we are getting this guy is because Guillen thinks he can revitalize another latino player because he can relate to these guys

 

I bet anything that if Vizquel was not latino, he is not even called

Bulls***. Look at some of the other guys we're looking at; RJ, Hudson, etc. I see the latin issue as nothing.

[witesoxfan]

The only reason we are getting this guy is because Guillen thinks he can revitalize another latino player because he can relate to these guys

 

I bet anything that if Vizquel was not latino, he is not even called

Not sure I agree. We need a SS, and we don't want it to be a long term thing. I am not sure Vizquel being Latino has anything to do with it.

[redandwhite]

defensive numbers mean about as much to me as that duece i just dropped in the toilet, so I'd just like to show you what a buddy had to say.

 

Jose Valentin on Earth is a guy who was such a butcher at SS he was moved to 3rd and CF to try to keep his power in the lineup

 

His D lost games, his HRs had a chance to win games

 

In Stato land he is supposedly the best SS but his onbase % and bat is what makes him the hack that he is

 

He is the ideal example to show that watchiing the games and scouting must go along with the stats

 

200 - the number of games I have seen JT Snow play, and again, was impressed of how many plays he saved at first, yet laughed when he was rated one of the worst fielders from 2000-03, almost as laughable as calling Valentin the best fielder in the game by THE NUMBERS

[Goober]

defensive numbers mean about as much to me as that duece i just dropped in the toilet, so I'd just like to show you what a buddy had to say.

ok....

 

is this guy a scout or something?

Edited November 4, 2004 by Tmar28

[Chisoxfn]

Guys I'm going to have to side with Red on this.

 

Orlando Cabrerra >>> Jose Valentin

 

I think Jose has good range, but at the same time I think playing in Montreal most of his career means more groundballs got past him because they are hit so hard which has a negative effect on his range factor.

 

Plus RF heavily depends on the type of pitchers you have as well, especially for a middle infielder. Having watched Jose paly a long time, I'll say this. He's better then average range wise, but defensively I'd call him average because he still makes too many errors. This year he did better, but Cabrerra is very strong defensively and I think he's better then Jose.

[redandwhite]

There's really no question about it. There's a reason why Jose Valentin was tried out at third and center a few years back, and its because the guy is a liability defensively.

 

He loses games with his glove. No stat is going to tell me otherwise.

[witesoxfan]

defensive numbers mean about as much to me as that duece i just dropped in the toilet, so I'd just like to show you what a buddy had to say.

 

Jose Valentin on Earth is a guy who was such a butcher at SS he was moved to 3rd and CF to try to keep his power in the lineup

 

His D lost games, his HRs had a chance to win games

 

In Stato land he is supposedly the best SS but his onbase % and bat is what makes him the hack that he is

 

He is the ideal example to show that watchiing the games and scouting must go along with the stats

 

200 - the number of games I have seen JT Snow play, and again, was impressed of how many plays he saved at first, yet laughed when he was rated one of the worst fielders from 2000-03, almost as laughable as calling Valentin the best fielder in the game by THE NUMBERS

Valentin had 1 terrible year defensively at SS where he made 36 errors over a full year. That was his worst year ever defensively.

 

He was moved around because someone in the White Sox organization put too much into making errors and not enough into the plays he makes. They didn't realize that if you hardly move, you don't make many errors. Therefore, to reduce the number of errors made, KW brought in Royce Clayton for Aaron Myette.

 

In the technicality of it, Jose Valentin was moved because of defensive purposes, but that was mainly due to someone's thought and not because the numbers over the long haul necessarily supported that idea.

 

So I ask...are you going to believe ONE person over hundreds of people? If so, I have some great ocean front property to sell you in Wyoming.

[YASNY]

There's really no question about it.  There's a reason why Jose Valentin was tried out at third and center a few years back, and its because the guy is a liability defensively.

 

He loses games with his glove.  No stat is going to tell me otherwise.

Jose Valentin is no gold glover, I'll give you that. But I've watch him play long enough to know that he is more than the defensive hack that you and your buddy make him out to be. Your buddy even goes so far as to point to his batting avaerage and on base pct to back his contention that Jose is bad defensively. You guys won't look at fielding stats, but batting stats are relevent. Now that's logic for ya.

[redandwhite]

Jose Valentin is no gold glover, I'll give you that.  But I've watch him play long enough to know that he is more than the defensive hack that you and your buddy make him out to be.  Your buddy even goes so far as to point to his batting avaerage and on base pct to back his contention that Jose is bad defensively.  You guys won't look at fielding stats, but batting stats are relevent. Now that's logic for ya.

The batting stats are only placed in there to show how much of a liability Jose has been throughout his career, and how the Brewers and the White Sox tried to find a position that he would see less action so that he could hit.

 

Now that hes hitting in the low .200's and striking out at will, the defense has been overlooked.

 

Agree to disagree? most likely, but don't give me this range factor bs or how many errors and stuff. Defense is measured purely on watching the player play in my opinion. Telling me Jose's range factor is the best in the league is the most deceiving thing I have heard in my life.

 

I base my decisions defensively on how the player performs in the field through a long period of time, and with Jose it isn't exactly a small sample size, and with that being said, he's been a liabilty in my eyes.

[YASNY]

The batting stats are only placed in there to show how much of a liability Jose has been throughout his career, and how the Brewers and the White Sox tried to find a position that he would see less action so that he could hit.

 

Now that hes hitting in the low .200's and striking out at will, the defense has been overlooked.

 

Agree to disagree?  most likely, but don't give me this range factor bs or how many errors and stuff.  Defense is measured purely on watching the player play in my opinion.  Telling me Jose's range factor is the best in the league is the most deceiving thing I have heard in my life.

 

I base my decisions defensively on how the player performs in the field through a long period of time, and with Jose it isn't exactly a small sample size, and with that being said, he's been a liabilty in my eyes.

For the record, I never quoted range factor or any other defensive stat to you. I stated that my opinion was based on watching Jose play. The only reason I mentioned defensive stats, in general, was to point out the fact that offensive stats were being used to back the contention the Jose sucked defensively.

 

So I guess agree to disagree it is.

[Hatchetman]

from gleeman:

 

Vizquel is a guy I've talked about as a good one-year filler, but it sounds as if at least one team has bigger plans for the 38-year-old. I've heard that the White Sox are talking about a two-year deal worth $8 million for Vizquel, which is not only extremely overpaying him, but also extremely strange when you consider they'd be setting the shortstop market by signing a 38-year-old in an offseason where teams have their pick at the position.

 

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/...ket-shortstops/

[redandwhite]

Anytime your paying a 38 year old, 250 hitter four million dollars your overpaying. I think Kenny knows that, and could go the extra mile thinking, "If I can get Cabrera for 6, or Garciaparra for 7.."

 

We'll just have to wait til the twelth and see.

[witesoxfan]

Anytime your paying a 38 year old, 250 hitter four million dollars your overpaying.  I think Kenny knows that, and could go the extra mile thinking, "If I can get Cabrera for 6, or Garciaparra for 7.."

 

We'll just have to wait til the twelth and see.

Hit .275 or better in 3 of his last 4 full seasons, career .275 hitter

 

Yep, all signs indicate he is a .250 hitter :rolly

 

I also see Cabrera getting probably 4 years in FA, and Garciaparra will cost more then $7 mill on the open market with the Cubs looking at resigning him and both LA and Anaheim having interest in all likelyhood. I see him getting $8-10 mill. The Sox do not want a lot of strings attached to the FA they sign, and they do not want them to be extra spendy. They also want a guy who can provide a little leadership, regardless of how much stock you put into intangibles...SS is the position they've gotten leadership from before in the past, and they will lose it.

 

I don't buy leadership like that, but Vizquel's older and knows his way around the block...he'll help the kids on the team. That's not worth anymore money or is not a reason to sign him...it's just an incentive in signing him.

 

The Sox future SS is playing 2B for the next 2 years(assuming Vizquel does ink with the Sox), and their potential future 2Bman(if he could ever figure out LHP) could be riding the pine this year after a decent first full year in the bigs.

 

I think the only other guy they would have potential interest in is Larkin, and I just don't think they like him as much because they didnt see him killing the Sox the past 10 years or so.

[jackie hayes]

I've heard that Guillen is not willing to rely on Uribe to be the everyday ss. But he seems willing to let him be the everyday 2b. Isn't his defense good enough to be the ss? Other than that, I don't see the difference, everyone hits. It feels like this team tries to train its players w/ some half-speed ML seasons, for Rowand and Willie, eg, and maybe now Uribe (though not Crede), and I don't understand that practice. Once they're ready for the ML, throw them in the fire and see what they've got.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I wouldn't mind Nomar on a one year deal, although a lot of teams would be interested in him too. Kenny has watned him for a year so it wouldn't shock me to see the Sox at least inquire. If we could get him at 7-8 for a one year, I wouldn't hesitate. I, however, assume that he will come in at 10 though.