What is Moral/Values

[Gene Honda Civic]

As discussed in another thread, exit polls (we know how reliable those are) showed that over 20% of people cited Morals as the #1 issue this election, more than any other single factor.

 

I'm baffled by this. WTF is Morals. Was one of the choices AMORAL?

 

I have a lot more questions, but this should be enough to get you started. Discuss.

[CrimsonWeltall]

John Kerry is a homersexual with John Edwards and they both perform abortions and satanist rituals while they sodomize each other.

 

It's pretty simple.

[Gene Honda Civic]

John Kerry is a homersexual with John Edwards and they both perform abortions  and satanist rituals while they sodomize each other.

 

It's pretty simple.

That's what I thought.

[Controlled Chaos]

This article seems to touch on some different values and morals of the canidates...The article itself is about voting in Maine, but I think it is well written and can be applied everywhere.

 

Moral values seen as key election issue

 

 

By JEN FISH, Portland Press Herald Writer

 

 

For Barbara Collins of Windham, Sen. John Kerry's decision to throw away his military ribbons to protest the Vietnam War said enough about his values to determine her vote for President Bush.

 

But to Thomas Mutty of Lewiston, Kerry's war record is not as important as his belief that Kerry is the more honest of the two candidates.

 

Both Mutty and Collins say the personal values of the presidential candidates will influence whom they vote for on Nov. 2.

 

Whether values means honesty or patriotism, religious or moral teachings, the question of how the presidential candidates' principal beliefs affect their decisions or positions makes a difference to voters, experts say. Sixty-four percent of voters say the issue of "moral values" will be very important in their vote, according to a survey last month by the Pew Research Center and the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life.

 

Some political analysts believe this election hinges on values, and the candidate who manages to convince Maine voters that he shares their values will win the state's four electoral votes.

 

"To win, (both candidates) have to be very, very careful," said John Green, a political science professor at the University of Akron in Ohio and author of a study exploring the relationship between politics and religion.

 

"They have to stress the value issues to turn out their base," he said. "But they have to do that in a way that they don't turn off the middle."

 

This task could prove difficult in a state where many residents hold a mix of what would be considered liberal and conservative values. Maine residents pride themselves on a strong sense of community and family. They respect but hold a healthy skepticism of government. And they strive to maintain their sense of individuality.

 

Maine is also a state that has had two independent governors in the past three decades and a congressional delegation that is evenly split between the two major parties.

 

The difficulty in discussing values, said Mark Brewer, a University of Maine political science professor, is that "values" means different things to different people.

 

"(People) tend to immediately jump to questions that are linked to religious teaching or religious doctrines," he said. "The term values doesn't mean that to everyone."

 

Barbara Collins has two sons who are officers in the U.S. Marine Corps. To her, the way in which Kerry chose to protest Vietnam conflicts with her own personal experiences and beliefs.

 

"That should have been a private thing," she said. "You don't throw mud at all our men and boys that died just because he was unhappy with the war."

 

In terms of religious values, Brewer said, a person's religious beliefs can have a profound effect on whom they vote for. But for the most part, that part of the electorate is mostly locked up because each candidate has been fairly clear about where he stands on policies linked to religion, such as abortion or gay marriage.

 

Bush, a devout Methodist who says he reads the Bible every day, appeals to voters like Patricia Martin of Bangor, who gravitated to the Republican Party in part because of her own religious beliefs as a Catholic.

 

Martin said she shares the president's opposition to abortion, gay marriage and his support of voluntary prayer in schools. Kerry, who is also Catholic, she said, "is making a mockery of his religion."

 

"I hate to be judgmental because I'm not God," she said. "But he doesn't seem to have the moral standards that I believe the majority of Catholics have."

 

But there are other voters who believe that religion should be kept out of politics. Tom St. Amand of Kennebunk says Bush's religious views as they relate to policy have turned him off to the president.

 

"There's a place for it and it's not the headline of your press releases," he said.

 

St. Amand said he will vote for Kerry because he believes Kerry is the more thoughtful candidate, who weighs his decisions more carefully.

 

"I'm sure they're both good men, but it goes beyond that," he said. "What's the deliberative process?"

 

Curt Mildner, president of Market Decisions in South Portland, believes that the way each candidate approaches problems and how that approach leads to solutions could be the value that decides the election.

 

Bush, he said, tends to define issues as either right or wrong with little room for circumstances or nuance. As an example, Mildner cited Bush's comments during the lead-up to the Iraq war, when Bush portrayed Saddam Hussein as an evil dictator who must be dealt with as a matter of national security.

 

Conversely, Kerry embraces a more fluid approach, in essence saying that "right and wrong is simple, but circumstances aren't," said Mildner. Kerry, he said, seems to take the view that, yes, Saddam was an evil person, but the United States was wrong to act unilaterally.

 

These two value systems, Mildner said, explain the perceptions of each candidate. To his supporters, Bush is a strong, decisive leader. To his detractors, he is seen as "a cowboy who shoots from the hip," Mildner said.

 

On the other side, Kerry's approach wins him points with some voters who believe that he is the more thoughtful and intellectual of the two candidates. But to Kerry's detractors, this contemplative approach has led some to believe Kerry is indecisive or a "flip-flopper."

 

Bush's approach, meanwhile, is unappealing to voters such as William Leffler of Kennebunkport, a financial planner and retired rabbi.

 

"Everything for (Bush) is either good or evil and right and wrong," he said. "He doesn't seem to understand that a difference of opinion is quite legitimate."

 

Staff Writer Jen Fish can be contacted at 282-8229 or at:

 

[email protected] 1/3 1/3 1/2

[southsider2k5]

The conservatives have made very big issues out of things like gay marriage, abortion, religion etc. I think that is what is being referred to here.

[Wong & Owens]

I think it's laughable that this writer called Bush a "devout Methodist." Methodist is his third religion in what, 7-8 years?

 

I'm I devout White Sox fan, I started cheering for them in 2001.

 

As a direct descendant of John Wesley, maybe I should have tried to kick Bush out of the Methodist church before the election.

[Controlled Chaos]

I think it's laughable that this writer called Bush a "devout Methodist."  Methodist is his third religion in what, 7-8 years?

 

I'm I devout White Sox fan, I started cheering for them in 2001.

 

As a direct descendant of John Wesley, maybe I should have tried to kick Bush out of the Methodist church before the election.

I don't know...I couldn't find where he switched religions, but either way I take "devout" as meaning devoted to his religion...whether it be for his whole life or just the past two years.

 

Yeah you are a devout white sox fan if you are devoted to them winning

[Wong & Owens]

I don't know...I couldn't find where he switched religions, but either way I take "devout" as meaning devoted to his religion...whether it be for his whole life or just the past two years.

 

Yeah you are a devout white sox fan if you are devoted to them winning

I just find it hard to believe that one is devoted to anything after such a short time, especially when there is evidence that suggests you very well may change again in the near future.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Here's what I don't get. Back in the 60's there was fear that Kennedy was too closely tied to the Catholic Church. That the pope, his religion, would have more influence than the will of the american people. It was a silly notion then, but now 40 years later, it's the main asset of our president.

 

WTF happened to this country?

[jasonxctf]

very simply, very truly... morals and values are different things to different people. It's insane for anyone, on either side, to say what's moral and what's not. When politician's or any one else start talking about family values I want to :puke

 

"To each their own"

[southsideirish]

Here's what I don't get.  Back in the 60's there was fear that Kennedy was too closely tied to the Catholic Church.  That the pope, his religion, would have more influence than the will of the american people.  It was a silly notion then, but now 40 years later, it's the main asset of our president. 

 

WTF happened to this country?

Exactly we should be trying to seperate religion from government, not combining them. I am not for abortion unless it is in certain circumstances, however I am not going to impose my beliefs on someone else that does not have the same beliefs as I do. Just because I don't believe in forcing others to belive the way I do or to push my moral values on others does not mean that I am not moral myself. The same can be said for Kerry. He is pro choice, not pro abortion.

[jackie hayes]

Here's what I don't get.  Back in the 60's there was fear that Kennedy was too closely tied to the Catholic Church.  That the pope, his religion, would have more influence than the will of the american people.  It was a silly notion then, but now 40 years later, it's the main asset of our president. 

 

WTF happened to this country?

Much different issue. That had to do w/ one particular religion. Had Kennedy been Baptist, noone would have questioned his religious views.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Gay marriage was a brilliant strategy on Rove's part to win this election. They knew the amendment would never pass on the federal level, but if they made it a big deal and left it up to the states, there would be plenty of homophobes and zealots (is there a single reason to oppose gay people getting married other than religion or hatred?) who would run to the polls to pretect their tiny-minded view of the world, and along the way, vote for that nice man who could be their next door neighbor, if he wasn't ungodly freaking rich and powerful.

[Cali]

Gay marriage was a brilliant strategy on Rove's part to win this election. They knew the amendment would never pass on the federal level, but if they made it a big deal and left it up to the states, there would be plenty of homophobes and zealots (is there a single reason to oppose gay people getting married other than religion or hatred?) who would run to the polls to pretect their tiny-minded view of the world, and along the way, vote for that nice man who could be their next door neighbor, if he wasn't ungodly freaking rich and powerful.

When Jon Stewart was reading which states passed the ban gay marriage things (all from the south no real surprise) the one for, I think, Mississippi was like 92%, He said, "you can't even look at a dude anymore there"

[Flash Tizzle]

Much different issue.  That had to do w/ one particular religion.  Had Kennedy been Baptist, noone would have questioned his religious views.

Absolutely.

 

Up until 1960 there had never been a Catholic President, and we're all aware how reluctant some are to accept change in this country. Nixon frequently pointed out Kennedy's affiliation with the Catholic religion as if he threatened the unity of the United States. Spread of Communism in Cuba was the real issue, yet this somehow became a focal point of debate.

[KipWellsFan]

Martin said she shares the president's opposition to abortion, gay marriage and his support of voluntary prayer in schools. Kerry, who is also Catholic, she said, "is making a mockery of his religion."

 

"I hate to be judgmental because I'm not God," she said. "But he doesn't seem to have the moral standards that I believe the majority of Catholics have."

 

She fell for the spin guys, damnit!

 

 

Curt Mildner, president of Market Decisions in South Portland, believes that the way each candidate approaches problems and how that approach leads to solutions could be the value that decides the election.

 

Bush, he said, tends to define issues as either right or wrong with little room for circumstances or nuance. As an example, Mildner cited Bush's comments during the lead-up to the Iraq war, when Bush portrayed Saddam Hussein as an evil dictator who must be dealt with as a matter of national security.

 

Conversely, Kerry embraces a more fluid approach, in essence saying that "right and wrong is simple, but circumstances aren't," said Mildner. Kerry, he said, seems to take the view that, yes, Saddam was an evil person, but the United States was wrong to act unilaterally.

 

These two value systems, Mildner said, explain the perceptions of each candidate. To his supporters, Bush is a strong, decisive leader. To his detractors, he is seen as "a cowboy who shoots from the hip," Mildner said.

 

On the other side, Kerry's approach wins him points with some voters who believe that he is the more thoughtful and intellectual of the two candidates. But to Kerry's detractors, this contemplative approach has led some to believe Kerry is indecisive or a "flip-flopper."

 

Curt Mildner is a smart guy.

 

 

I think this article really lays out exactly why Bush won, thanks for sharing.

[Rex Kickass]

You know the best thing about that Portland article? I know the author.

[Gene Honda Civic]

From a blog

...I won't go on about the many distinct heartbreaking aspects of this, if only because there are so many of them. (And for the record: the candidates I prefer have often lost, and I have never felt this way before.) But there's one thing that I find really odd. Speaking as a person who, had I been exit-polled, would have put moral values at the top of my list of issues (since they didn't seem to have 'respect for the rule of law' as an option), I find the idea that "moral values" means "being against abortion and gay marriage" bizarre beyond belief. What happened to courage, magnanimity, integrity, decency, fairness, honesty, respect, generosity, kindness, perseverance, and justice? When, exactly, did they drop off our list of moral ideals? When did the scope of moral reflection contract to the point where it covers only sexual and reproductive questions? And when did we decide that the point of morality was only to point out things to dislike, not to suggest any ideals for each of us to live up to? I have wondered about this for years. And I would suggest to the Democratic Party that if they want to figure out what to do in the wake of this loss, they should not try to move further to the right on abortion and gay marriage, but to reclaim the huge tracts of morality that have been left out of our current political discourse. (Likewise with religion: restricting myself to Christianity for a moment, both because I know it best and because it's the religion that has been partially coopted by the right, there are enormous resources within Christianity for Democrats, resources that ask Christians to live up to their faith, not to water it down, and that would add to Democratic political discourse, not make it something other than itself.)

 

and a

NY Times Op/Ed piece

With the Democratic Party splattered at his feet in little blue puddles, John Kerry told the crushed crowd at Faneuil Hall in Boston about his concession call to President Bush.

 

"We had a good conversation," the senator said. "And we talked about the danger of division in our country and the need, the desperate need, for unity, for finding the common ground, coming together. Today I hope that we can begin the healing."

 

Democrat: Heal thyself.

 

W. doesn't see division as a danger. He sees it as a wingman.

 

The president got re-elected by dividing the country along fault lines of fear, intolerance, ignorance and religious rule. He doesn't want to heal rifts; he wants to bring any riffraff who disagree to heel.

 

W. ran a jihad in America so he can fight one in Iraq - drawing a devoted flock of evangelicals, or "values voters," as they call themselves, to the polls by opposing abortion, suffocating stem cell research and supporting a constitutional amendment against gay marriage.

 

Mr. Bush, whose administration drummed up fake evidence to trick us into war with Iraq, sticking our troops in an immoral position with no exit strategy, won on "moral issues."

 

The president says he's "humbled" and wants to reach out to the whole country. What humbug. The Bushes are always gracious until they don't get their way. If W. didn't reach out after the last election, which he barely grabbed, why would he reach out now that he has what Dick Cheney calls a "broad, nationwide victory"?

 

While Mr. Bush was making his little speech about reaching out, Republicans said they had "the green light" to pursue their conservative agenda, like drilling in Alaska's wilderness and rewriting the tax code.

 

"He'll be a lot more aggressive in Iraq now," one Bush insider predicts. "He'll raze Falluja if he has to. He feels that the election results endorsed his version of the war." Never mind that the more insurgents American troops kill, the more they create.

 

Just listen to Dick (Oh, lordy, is this cuckoo clock still vice president?) Cheney, introducing the Man for his victory speech: "This has been a consequential presidency which has revitalized our economy and reasserted a confident American role in the world." Well, it has revitalized the Halliburton segment of the economy, anyhow. And "confident" is not the first word that comes to mind for the foreign policy of a country that has alienated everyone except Fiji.

 

Vice continued, "Now we move forward to serve and to guard the country we love." Only Dick Cheney can make "to serve and to guard" sound like "to rape and to pillage."

 

He's creating the sort of "democracy" he likes. One party controls all power in the country. One network serves as state TV. One nation dominates the world as a hyperpower. One firm controls contracts in Iraq.

 

Just as Zell Miller was so over the top at the G.O.P. convention that he made Mr. Cheney seem reasonable, so several new members of Congress will make W. seem moderate.

 

Tom Coburn, the new senator from Oklahoma, has advocated the death penalty for doctors who perform abortions and warned that "the gay agenda" would undermine the country. He also characterized his race as a choice between "good and evil" and said he had heard there was "rampant lesbianism" in Oklahoma schools.

 

Jim DeMint, the new senator from South Carolina, said during his campaign that he supported a state G.O.P. platform plank banning gays from teaching in public schools. He explained, "I would have given the same answer when asked if a single woman who was pregnant and living with her boyfriend should be hired to teach my third-grade children."

 

John Thune, who toppled Tom Daschle, is an anti-abortion Christian conservative - or "servant leader," as he was hailed in a campaign ad - who supports constitutional amendments banning flag burning and gay marriage.

 

Seeing the exit polls, the Democrats immediately started talking about values and religion. Their sudden passion for wooing Southern white Christian soldiers may put a crimp in Hillary's 2008 campaign (nothing but a wooden stake would stop it). Meanwhile, the blue puddle is comforting itself with the expectation that this loony bunch will fatally overreach, just as Newt Gingrich did in the 90's.

 

But with this crowd, it's hard to imagine what would constitute overreaching.

 

Invading France?

 

E-mail: [email protected]

[EvilJester99]

Morals are things other people try to preach to others because its what they see as being right and just. IMO

[POTUSChris]

Here's what I don't get.  Back in the 60's there was fear that Kennedy was too closely tied to the Catholic Church.  That the pope, his religion, would have more influence than the will of the american people.  It was a silly notion then, but now 40 years later, it's the main asset of our president. 

 

WTF happened to this country?

Just in case anyone did not know this, the whole idea of being against a Catholic president because of the connection to the Pope was not a new thing in 1960. Since George Washington, Catholicism had been looked down upon by many people who believed a Catholic in power would be listening to the Pope and not the people which is why there hadn't been a Catholic in power before Kennedy. Religion, in general, on the other hand was important and still is to many. If the candidate was not religious, it was looked down upon by the voters.

[Gene Honda Civic]

Just in case anyone did not know this, the whole idea of being against a Catholic president because of the connection to the Pope was not a new thing in 1960.  Since George Washington, Catholicism had been looked down upon by many people who believed a Catholic in power would be listening to the Pope and not the people which is why there hadn't been a Catholic in power before Kennedy. Religion, in general, on the other hand was important and still is to many.  If the candidate was not religious, it was looked down upon by the voters.

Yeah, Illustrating my point. The country was founded on religious freedom... yet they refuse to elect an official who practices a different religion than them.

 

Jihad.

[jasonxctf]

cheat I dig your new picture.

[Texsox]

I received a nice campaign flyer as I neared my polling place telling me a vote for Kerry was immoral if I was one of about 45 religions. I asked as a Catholic why a vote for Kerry was immoral. The guy pointed out abortion as the main issue. I asked that because Bush supports the death penalty, contraception, the war in Iraq, and is a Methodist, wouldn't that be immoral.

 

He moved on to bother another person.

 

People pick a candidate and find reasons to support him. One of my close friends said he voted for Bush because Governors make better leaders than Senators. I asked him why he voted for Dole over Clinton

 

The Mexico Chamber of Commerce down here cheered long and hard. They estimate at least 6,000 new jobs for Mexicans this year on the Mexican border of Texas. They hate unions and Democrats who try and stop businesses from moving with tax payer supported incentives. Listening to them gloat was kind of sad knowing they were right.

[AngelasDaddy0427]

Nice Avatar Cheat!

[sox4lifeinPA]

is there a single reason to oppose gay people getting married other than religion or hatred

 

the same reason we don't let brothers and sisters or mother's and sons get married?

 

the fact that it's a religious ceremony and most legitimate Christian institutions have read the bible and figured out that homosexuality is a sin.

 

 

 

have at the civil unions, cheat.