megs04sox Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 even if i didnt shoot myself, i'd probably die of a heart attack. i love konerko and garland. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Look at Percy's numbers after he came back from his injury. I gotta say I am interested in him. I doubt the numbers would fit, but he would be a good contrast to Shingo and Damaso. He was injured before the all star break, and after the all star break he posted an era of 1.67 which isn't too shabby. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 even if i didnt shoot myself, i'd probably die of a heart attack. i love konerko and garland. That's the problem. You can't let your personal biases and love for players get in the way. Also, never become attached to a player. It crushed me when we traded MO, and I have learned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 the stats make me like this but my gut doesn't..... Eh.. just do the logical solution.. blame Jason Gage! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoxAce Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Also, never become attached to a player. It crushed me when we traded MO, and I have learned. Ditto here. I still think Reed is still here... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heads22 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Eh.. just do the logical solution.. blame Jason Gage! Very true. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 His strikeouts have dropped immensely, but he is still hitting 96,97,98 on the radar gun believe it or not. Which is why i really cannot understand his decrease in strikeouts. What? I thought it was only 93 MPH. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwerty Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 What? I thought it was only 93 MPH. Nope, if anyone from california reads this i am sure they can confirm it. I know this because i watch alot of their games on mlb extra innings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 So are we all in agreement about RJ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 even if i didnt shoot myself, i'd probably die of a heart attack. i love konerko and garland. and that explains the facination with bad arguments. I loved Herbert Perry, but I love the sox more. And great baseball players are better than busts and good ones any day of the week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted November 9, 2004 Author Share Posted November 9, 2004 So are we all in agreement about RJ? No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 In the postseason, I'd rather have the RJ-Garcia-Buehrle rotation...I thought I had mentioned that. If you wouldn't prefer that rotation, you'd be dumb(or you might prefer Hudson-Buehrle-Garcia...either is top notch). But you gotta get to the postseason first...that's probably the most important thing to remember. I could see a FA brought in here and winning us 15 games easily, and then us still having Konerko at 1B offensively too. I just do not like Konerko and Garland plus a prospect for RJ, unless we can somehow get another decent starter in here to replace Garland(and, while it is unlikely we'd get him cheaply, I'd take Loaiza if we could get him...odds are some team will give him some kind of a multi-year deal, and we will be SOL...but I'm just using that as an example). Put it this way...I'd rather trade Lee and Konerko for Johnson then Konerko and Garland for Johnson. With the first trade, we cut a little more payroll, we are still very strong pitching wise, and, quite frankly, it is a little easier to find good hitting then it is good pitching. Also, with that second trade, because of how much we are giving Arizona for just Johnson, I could see them throwing in a player or two too. Lee and Konerko wouldn't be the worst idea since it allows you to keep Garland, but you'd be hoping for someone like Danny Bautista to be added to the deal to be able to replace Lee, or some more prospects perhaps, and then you can go out and sign someone like Jermaine Dye perhaps? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted November 9, 2004 Author Share Posted November 9, 2004 Lee and Konerko wouldn't be the worst idea since it allows you to keep Garland, but you'd be hoping for someone like Danny Bautista to be added to the deal to be able to replace Lee, or some more prospects perhaps, and then you can go out and sign someone like Jermaine Dye perhaps? The best idea I've heard thus far is not making any Johnson trade at all. You can't change the whole make up of your ballclub and expect to win a World Series. Keep Lee, keep Koneko. Make a couple signings and add to what we already have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 The best idea I've heard thus far is not making any Johnson trade at all. You can't change the whole make up of your ballclub and expect to win a World Series. Keep Lee, keep Koneko. Make a couple signings and add to what we already have. You are right, we shouldnt change the ballclub, instead of trading a flopping prospect, and a slow 1b who has reached his peak in value, and will be gone after next season anyway, and has a more than capable backup, for an perrenial all-star a cy young award winner, and the most dominant pitcher of the last 10 years. You are right, that would be very silly, why would we want to improve the club Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I can't understand all of the let's trade Lee and Konerko thoughts. Do we really think that hitters like these guys grow on trees? There aren't that many guys that can hit above .280 with 30 homers. We happen to have three that can do it when healthy. This puts us in a good position to deal one, but why kill our lineup by dealing two of them? Do we really want to depend on Jurassic Carl and The Big Hurt(empahisis on hurt) to carry our lineup? It's not like there are that many solid hitters out there to replace them either. Sexon and Delgado are both options, but they both suffered fairly serious injuries this year. Plus Delgado sucked when healthy this past year and Sexon can't hit for average. Drew may be coming off a career year, but do we really want to sign and depend on one of the most injury prone players in the league, especially considering that he has NEVER driven in 100 runs? You can't just throw together a group of mediocre players and expect them to produce runs. Let me anticipate the Twins as a counter argument and say the following: 1) the Twins do not have one of the better offenses in the league, and have succeeded more because of a stellar bullpen in recent years 2) they currently have guys like Ford, Stewart, and Mauer that can hit very well, and got solid years from guys like Hunter and Koskie in the past. I'm amazed at how we can want to get rid of a guy who has produced like Lee rather than a guy like Garland who has not been able to keep an ERA under 4.50 as a starter. This is RANDY JOHNSON people. And we would be getting him for a 1B with only one year left on his contract that had a career year and terrible home/road splits(and is a questionable resign at best) and an underacheiving 5th starter that is soon going to cost more than he is worth. We should thank the baseball gods for shining their grace upon us and move before the D-Backs come to their senses. The addition of RJ can cover up numerous other holes in our team, and since it is unlikely that we would get a solid starter and a solid bullpen arm, and even less likely that we would add an impact bat to compensate for losing Lee and Konerko, this would be our best shot to make a good run. P.S.- for those that want to point out my previous aversion to adding a starter and endorsing adding a bullpen arm, the starting pitcher(s) in question were not of the caliber of Randy Johnson. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 The best idea I've heard thus far is not making any Johnson trade at all. You can't change the whole make up of your ballclub and expect to win a World Series. Keep Lee, keep Koneko. Make a couple signings and add to what we already have. yeah that would be like trading away the face of your franchise at the ASB. :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 yeah that would be like trading away the face of your franchise at the ASB. :rolly Or adding a new ace pitcher, a new closer, eventually a new starting SS and trying to trade your two most recognizeable position player for A-Rod and Maggs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 The best idea I've heard thus far is not making any Johnson trade at all. You can't change the whole make up of your ballclub and expect to win a World Series. Keep Lee, keep Koneko. Make a couple signings and add to what we already have. How long have you been following the White Sox again? This organization is in Jerry Reinsdorf's control. People have been posting here and other sites that sources within the organization have told them that payroll would go up for 2005, but noone knows how much. This organization isn't like the Red Sox. The Sox haven't had a big name free agent signing since Albert Belle in 1996. The last time I got excited over the Sox signing a free agent was in Janurary of 2002 when we sign Kenny Lofton to a $1 million 1 year deal. (How sad is that?) The owner doesn't give out long term deals to pitchers because he has been made the right decision a few times (McDowell, Fernandez,) and got burned when he gave a 5 year deal to Jaime Navarro. I don't see ownership willing to raise payroll just to sign some guy for the bullpen and Odalis Perez. This is just based on how this organization has been operating since the White Flag trade back in 1997. If there is a "buzz" or more people are becoming interested in the Sox, they will increase payroll to get some quality names. This is one reason why I see ownership increasing payroll just to get Randy Johnson. He has a lot more market value than Odalis Perez, or Russ Ortiz, and he has one year left on his deal. He also happens to be a potential Cy Young winner. But you say "Trading for Johnson is stupid, just sign some guys." :headshake Try being a fan of the White Sox for more than a year, and you'll realize that just going out and "signing some guys" isn't much of an option for the White Sox under Reinsdorf's control. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoodAsGould Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 i dont think we will get RJ or hudson this offseason as much talks as there is but reading sox articles they seem to lean more and more to that konerko is going to be traded instead of clee... so if we get RJ somehow i would assume it would only be a package of konerko and prospects.. or crede Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Deferred money is guaranteed... just has to be paid sooner if he's traded. That seems to be an elusive concept to grasp around here for some reason. :rolly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steff Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 That seems to be an elusive concept to grasp around here for some reason. :rolly It's just more fun to b**** and moan about deferred contracts not being "real money" and in some way an effort to screw the player. It's 2 years.. and it's interest gaining. It's a win/win for both sides. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted November 9, 2004 Author Share Posted November 9, 2004 How long have you been following the White Sox again? This organization is in Jerry Reinsdorf's control. People have been posting here and other sites that sources within the organization have told them that payroll would go up for 2005, but noone knows how much. This organization isn't like the Red Sox. The Sox haven't had a big name free agent signing since Albert Belle in 1996. The last time I got excited over the Sox signing a free agent was in Janurary of 2002 when we sign Kenny Lofton to a $1 million 1 year deal. (How sad is that?) The owner doesn't give out long term deals to pitchers because he has been made the right decision a few times (McDowell, Fernandez,) and got burned when he gave a 5 year deal to Jaime Navarro. I don't see ownership willing to raise payroll just to sign some guy for the bullpen and Odalis Perez. This is just based on how this organization has been operating since the White Flag trade back in 1997. If there is a "buzz" or more people are becoming interested in the Sox, they will increase payroll to get some quality names. This is one reason why I see ownership increasing payroll just to get Randy Johnson. He has a lot more market value than Odalis Perez, or Russ Ortiz, and he has one year left on his deal. He also happens to be a potential Cy Young winner. But you say "Trading for Johnson is stupid, just sign some guys." :headshake Try being a fan of the White Sox for more than a year, and you'll realize that just going out and "signing some guys" isn't much of an option for the White Sox under Reinsdorf's control. To answer your question, I've been following the White Sox for the past 5 years and intensely for the last 3. I know the trends that JR seems to have, and I know that the White Sox can't just go out and sign guys like a defending World Champion in a city like Boston. I know that, I know that, I know that. The fact of the matter is that the White Sox shouldn't make a trade for Randy Johnson for the sake of getting the name and in a sense gaining the edge over the Cubs. I would rather do that by winning baseball games, which is obtainable by making financially smart signings and trades. I just want to note that I am all for trading Paul Konerko solely based on the fact that he has maxed out his potential, it is Jon Garland who I do not want to trade. Acquiring Johnson and giving up Garland or not fixing that fifth starter problem is exactly what each and everyone of you were throwing up about just a few weeks ago. My final point is, you don't have a player making a fourth of your payroll, A. And B. Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, Garland/FA is a very capable playoff rotation and a much better regular season rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZoomSlowik Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 To answer your question, I've been following the White Sox for the past 5 years and intensely for the last 3. I know the trends that JR seems to have, and I know that the White Sox can't just go out and sign guys like a defending World Champion in a city like Boston. I know that, I know that, I know that. The fact of the matter is that the White Sox shouldn't make a trade for Randy Johnson for the sake of getting the name and in a sense gaining the edge over the Cubs. I would rather do that by winning baseball games, which is obtainable by making financially smart signings and trades. I just want to note that I am all for trading Paul Konerko solely based on the fact that he has maxed out his potential, it is Jon Garland who I do not want to trade. Acquiring Johnson and giving up Garland or not fixing that fifth starter problem is exactly what each and everyone of you were throwing up about just a few weeks ago. My final point is, you don't have a player making a fourth of your payroll, A. And B. Garcia, Buehrle, Contreras, Garland/FA is a very capable playoff rotation and a much better regular season rotation. Having a quality 5th starter is not all that important. That's a guy that will hardly see the field in the playoffs. That's something you worry about when everything else is worked out. Most teams have to worry about starters 2-4, the Sox included in that. Only one of the playoff teams had any kind of quality out of their 5th starter(Cardinals). The other 7 had problems with most of the rotation throughout the year, much less with the 5th starter. The Sox certainly don't have the kind of resources to be able to worry about having a quality 5th starter, since they really only have a 1 and 2 right now(some would argue that). Besides, with Johnson, Garcia, and Buehrle up front, they are much less worried about production from the backend. Having that much quality at the top allows you to have more flexibility. The 4th and 5th starters are much less of a concern, plus the bullpen is going to face a lot less strain. Adding Johnson give us another guy that gives us 6 innings no matter what and could go deeper, and that makes life a lot easier. That way there is a good chance we won't have to work Marte and Shingo so much, making the pen more effective. That doesn't happen if we sign someone like Perez or Ortiz (assuming that even happens). If we start one guy for the whole year as our 5th starter, he'd probably get us 8 wins (I know we have sucked, but we also haven't given one guy more than a couple of starts). Garland gets us about 12 unless the light goes on. That's 4 wins. We could pick up just about anyone to get 10 and still get the benefits of Randy. Garland just isn't that valuable. The financial argument just doesn't hold water. Randy is a one-year commitment, and it would only cost us a couple of guys that probably aren't here for the long haul and not that much of a $ increase. If we sign a FA, he'll be here for at least 3 years, probably more. If he sucks we are stuck with him, and with the other starters we have locked up that gives us no flexibility. If Randy doesn't work out, we can just not resign him. More importantly, we don't have that great a playoff rotation compared with other playoff teams. It looks good when comparing it to the rest of the league, but Buehrle and Garcia are a stretch to consistently win against the likes of the Big Three in Oakland, Santana, Schilling, Vasquez most years, and whatever other top pitchers the Red Sox and Yankees go into next year with. Those are the types of players we have to face in the playoffs and beat, and I for one would feel much better if we had Randy or Hudson as our top guy then Garcia or Buehrle (or on the off chance we get Pavano for that matter). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I can't understand all of the let's trade Lee and Konerko thoughts. Do we really think that hitters like these guys grow on trees? There aren't that many guys that can hit above .280 with 30 homers. We happen to have three that can do it when healthy. This puts us in a good position to deal one, but why kill our lineup by dealing two of them? Do we really want to depend on Jurassic Carl and The Big Hurt(empahisis on hurt) to carry our lineup? It's not like there are that many solid hitters out there to replace them either. Sexon and Delgado are both options, but they both suffered fairly serious injuries this year. Plus Delgado sucked when healthy this past year and Sexon can't hit for average. Drew may be coming off a career year, but do we really want to sign and depend on one of the most injury prone players in the league, especially considering that he has NEVER driven in 100 runs? You can't just throw together a group of mediocre players and expect them to produce runs. Let me anticipate the Twins as a counter argument and say the following: 1) the Twins do not have one of the better offenses in the league, and have succeeded more because of a stellar bullpen in recent years 2) they currently have guys like Ford, Stewart, and Mauer that can hit very well, and got solid years from guys like Hunter and Koskie in the past. I'm amazed at how we can want to get rid of a guy who has produced like Lee rather than a guy like Garland who has not been able to keep an ERA under 4.50 as a starter. I don't think it is so much the wanting to get rid of Lee and Konerko...I would not want to get rid of them unless a replacement of some type if brought in for one of them. I was basically just saying that I'd rather give up Lee and Konerko for RJ rather then Garland and Konerko. If I had it my way...neither package would be going to Arizona for RJ, unless we could bring in a solid replacement for Garland, because I do not want a black hole of a #5 spot in the rotation again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted November 9, 2004 Author Share Posted November 9, 2004 Having a quality 5th starter is not all that important. Pardon me while I throw up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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