Offer Made For Randy Johnson

[AddisonStSox]

You don't seriously put Chris Carpenter on the same level as Randy Johnson, do you?  I think even Pavano is a big stretch.

Oh god no. Randy is in a league of his own. Make no mistakes about it people...I acknowledge his ability.

 

Quite frankly, regardless of previous posts/skirmishes...I no longer think RJ is consisdered the best pitcher in baseball, even if he has the best stuff. This is a game of bottom lines. The bottom line is, no matter how dynamite his stuff is, he's up there in age, he is the only draw in Arizona, he's highly paid, and it would take a lot to aquire him.

 

If we had Yankee money, or a stocked farm system, then YES, get him. KW's hands are tied. This scenario would have us moving Paulie(which I'm ok with), Garland(which I'm ok with), and prospects(which I'm not). I think shipping off that s***head Garland would create another hole in the rotation that KW would attempt to fill with sub-par pitchers. No matter how much I dislike Garland, or how much I like Paulie, I think this is giving up a bit much...ESPECIALLY if a top-notch prospect is involved.

 

Yes, I also understand the marketibility of a player like Johnson. Great PR move.

 

In the end, I think this is all moot anyway. Unless the Diamondbacks can snag some big name FA, Johnson may not be going anywhere. He is the ONLY draw in AZ...well that and Bank One. Who are the fans going to come out and see if he's moved...Chad Tracy?

[beck72]

That deffered money becomes guaranteed.  I'm almost 100% positive on that and I think it is due to the CBA.  I could see KW to try and get the D'backs to pay at least half of that ($3 million) if he were to trade for RJ.

 

IMO, the Diamondbacks have to move Randy Johnson because of finances, not to build for the future.  They are $300 million in debt, and need to cut corners at all costs.  Arizona got burned with the prospects the recieved in the Curt Schilling trade, so I don't think we would be giving up any top prospect in this deal.

What other teams can make appealing offers to the D'Backs for RJ? 

The Yankees have no farm system, and a lot of their players are signed to long-term big $$$ deals.

 

About RJ waiving his no-trade clause.  Chances are is that Sexson is not going to sign with the D'Backs.  Why would Randy want to play with a bunch of kids again?  He was upset last year with the way he didn't get run support or how the bullpen would blow his leads.  If the D'Backs ownership came up to him and said "Randy, the only reasonable trade offer we have recieved for your services is from Chicago.  It's all a matter of you waiving your no-trade clause, otherwise you're going to finish up the season here in Arizona."

How do you think Randy would react to that?

Good points.

Ariz. would still want people coming to the park, even if they are in "rebuilding mode" and won't make the playoffs this yr. That's why getting AA prospects doesn't make sense for them. That coupled w/ getting burned by the Sexton and Schilling trades for prospects, makes me lean towards AZ wanting established players, ala PK and Garland.

 

But there seem to be few teams who can match up w/ Ariz, and who are in the position to go for a one yr rental like RJ. It might come down to the question, Are the sox willing to pay the price? We'll all know soon enough.

[Harry Chappas]

You argued for keeping Garland, who would be "the best 5th SP in the league". What I argued, was that I'd rather have the best #1 SP out there for the Sox instead of having the best #5 in Garland. But of the names mentioned as possible trades this offseason and the FA's--Pavano, Pedro, Hudson, Mulder, Chris Carpenter--RJ is better than those guys.

 

For some reason, I rubbed you the wrong way in my posts. Yet you got a little personal and it was uncalled for.

Not to get to involved here but if Garland is our number 5, who is our number 4? I assume there is an assumption being made that we are going to pick up a 3/4 type pitcher thus bumping garland to 5? Should that pitcher be Clement or Lowe, fine but I get teh feeling any FA brought in will be slated as 5 to begin with making Garland our number 4.

[hammerhead johnson]

Not to get to involved here but if Garland is our number 5, who is our number 4?  I assume there is an assumption being made that we are going to pick up a 3/4 type pitcher thus bumping garland to 5?  Should that pitcher be Clement or Lowe, fine but I get teh feeling any FA brought in will be slated as 5 to begin with making Garland our number 4.

Jose Contreras

 

Unless they plan on moving him to the pen...

 

EDIT: Never mind, wrong context

[santo=dorf]

Not to get to involved here but if Garland is our number 5, who is our number 4?  I assume there is an assumption being made that we are going to pick up a 3/4 type pitcher thus bumping garland to 5?  Should that pitcher be Clement or Lowe, fine but I get teh feeling any FA brought in will be slated as 5 to begin with making Garland our number 4.

People here are actually expecting Reinsdorf to sign a pitcher better than Garland and Contreras which would consequently bump down their orders in the rotation.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing the Sox sign Odalis Perez, but then we would have 5 pitchers signed to long term deals (Buehrle, Garcia, Perez, Contreras, Marte.) That's very un-Reinsdorf like.

[beck72]

Not to get to involved here but if Garland is our number 5, who is our number 4?  I assume there is an assumption being made that we are going to pick up a 3/4 type pitcher thus bumping garland to 5?  Should that pitcher be Clement or Lowe, fine but I get teh feeling any FA brought in will be slated as 5 to begin with making Garland our number 4.

It was suggested to get a FA SP, that would move Garland to #5, instead of getting Johnson. I would rather have a sure fire #1 on the staff then have a questionable #3 or #4, with the best #5 in the league in Garland.

 

My response is the sox have 3 SP's locked in for a few yrs already for a big chunk of change. Getting a #2 or #3 [like Perez, Pavano, Radke, etc] would mean another large contract for a few yrs.

[beck72]

People here are actually expecting Reinsdorf to sign a pitcher better than Garland and Contreras which would consequently bump down their orders in the rotation.

 

I wouldn't mind seeing the Sox sign Odalis Perez, but then we would have 5 pitchers signed to long term deals (Buehrle, Garcia, Perez, Contreras, Marte.)  That's very un-Reinsdorf like.

That's why getting a one yr guy in Johnson, or Hudson, doesn't sound so strange going by JR's past practices. [though the sox do have few position players locked in to big long term contracts--Lee for 2 yrs with a 3rd option yr-- so there is room to add salary]

[The Critic]

In the end, I think this is all moot anyway.  Unless the Diamondbacks can snag some big name FA, Johnson may not be going anywhere.  He is the ONLY draw in AZ...well that and Bank One.  Who are the fans going to come out and see if he's moved...Chad Tracy?

Personally, I'm a HUGE fan of Luis Gonzalez, but I completely understand your point.

But I resent the implication that PK wouldn't be a HUGE DRAW in Arizona!!!!

[hitlesswonder]

Ariz. would still want people coming to the park, even if they are in "rebuilding mode" and won't make the playoffs this yr. That's why getting AA prospects doesn't make sense for them. That coupled w/ getting burned by the Sexton and Schilling trades for prospects, makes me lean towards AZ wanting established players, ala PK and Garland.

What stops AZ from asking for a mix of established players and prospects? If you were AZ's GM, would you give up a hall of fame pitcher without getting any value beyond this year? I don't think there's anyway they don't require getting at least one significant player they control beyond this year. Johnson is the last big chip AZ has to deal, they'll want to make it count. And I don't buy that the Sox are uniquely positioned to make the deal. St. Louis could do it and the Yankees as well (if AZ doesn't want prospects as has been suggested, Posada and Vazquez with NY picking up $$ should be a better deal).

 

People in favor of this trade point out that Johnson is the best (or close) SP in MLB, Konerko is a rangeless, slow-footed product of USCF, and Garland is a headcase with an ERA of 5. All contracts are the same length (1 year), and AZ saves 4 million. Actually less than that since with AZ part of Johnson's contract is deferred. So they would only save deferred money, and maybe actually pay more this year. I don't understand how anyone can believe that and think the prospects aren't going to be good.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I think this trade proposal reminds me of the Garcia deal, you would be thrilled with what you get while disappointed with what you have to give up. Here's why I like the deal, this team needs a direction. We need to s*** or get off the pot. LEt's make a run in 05 and maybe 06 and when Lee and Thomas' contracts expire after 06, it's time to legitimately rebuild. I can't see the Sox extending RJ's deal, but I bet they like the deferred aspect of his current deal (pending the aforementioned CBA's take on that). The worst part of this deal to me isn't giving up a good prospect, but the fact that we need to find yet another starter. Also, is we go after RJ, we will be fighting for a WS shot so expect to give up more prospects in July to shroe up needs that are sure to come. I don't know if this trade will work out (nobody does and if they tell you they know-they are full of it) but it's sure exciting to be active this offseason isn't it?

[beck72]

What stops AZ from asking for a mix of established players and prospects?

Az can ask for anything. The key is what do they want, and what teams have it.

 

Who knows what Az will get for RJ, when they do trade him. But AZ can always trade PK and Garland next yr at the deadline. [they'll need to stay competitive to start the yr so fans will come to the park. But if they are out of the race by a lot then they can still get value for both guys]. Also, they can sign them to deals when they become FA's. Jon is from Cal. and PK is from AZ, so both could re-sign.

 

If I were the GM, I'd get the best possible players I could. A Pk and Garland deal would be tough to beat.

[CWSGuy406]

By the way it's not that i'm some Garland lover.

Hell I'm as frustrated with him as anyone. However i'm not stupid enough to trade him away when 1. We can't find a 5th starter to save our lives and 2. He is almost Guarunteed to stay on pace to win 12 games at least. Maybe he even win's 15 + games.

However the point is that the alternative is a rotation of Johnson and Girilli. He we were the Yankees then I'd say sure go for it but we aren't! We can't afford to put all of our eggs in one basket. If he goes off and hurts himself then we would be totally screwed. Then our rotation is Diaz and Girilli.

All you Johnson lovers are taking a huge gamble with our chances next year. Especially since we'd be stuck with an offense barely able to produce or score runs (we couldn't sign any other players)

When you haven't won a World Series in 85+ years, and haven't reached a World Series in 40+ years, you gotta take some f***in chances. As long as the prospects don't include Anderson, Sweeney, or McCarthy, I'm definitely for this deal...

 

It's gonna be an interesting two weeks around here, that's for sure.

[Chisoxfn]

Do it, Do it Do it. I like Garland as much as the rest of us, but Konerko is gonna be gone at the end of the year most likely or at least possibly and we have Gload to step in for him anyway.

 

Garland, yes, its a loss, but Randy Johnson is oh so much better. We keep our prospects and all that other stuff. Assuming the Sox would then spend a little bit of money (they only add like 4-5 million after Garland's arbitration goes through) the Sox can then maybe up payroll a little bit more too.

 

I'd definately pull the trigger on that deal.

[Steff]

That deffered money becomes guaranteed.

Deferred money is guaranteed... just has to be paid sooner if he's traded.

[Mickster]

Johnson 16-14 (I'm well aware he was on the Diamondbacks) 2.60 ERA, 35 GS, 4 CG, 245.2 INN, 290 K

 

Oswalt 20-10, 3.49 ERA, 35 GS, 2 CG, 237 INN, 206 K

 

Clemens 18-4, 2.98 ERA, 33 GS, 0 CG, 214 INN, 218 K

 

Pavano, Schmidt, Carpenter also had good years in the NL.  I love Randy...I don't know where people come off saying I don't.  But, I don't think he is the #1 starter anymore.  When you consider his age, his salary, etc., I think he no longer is considered THE top #1.

Add almost a run to any NL pitcher's ERA if you are comparing them to an AL pitcher, imho. NL pitchers get, at the minimum, 3-4 easy outs per game (pitchers hitting) as opposed to an AL team where the DH (typically the most powerful hitter).

 

Clemens posted ERA's of 4.35 and 3.91 in 2002 and 2003, respectively. If you subtract 1 from AL ERA and you get Roger's 2.98 NL ERA in 2004.

 

Oswalt, while being an awesome pitcher, woule probably post a sub-4 ERA in the AL.

 

RJ could post a 3.5 with ease!

 

I am not an advocate of ERA as a tell-all, but adding his K's and the fact that he's been out of the AL for a few years (AL batters have not had an opportunity to look at RJ pitching for a while), it's a great move.

 

Pencil me in as "Pro RJ"!

[Chisoxfn]

To add to this, if the Sox could negotiate a deal with RJ to make sure the contract stays deferred (I'm not sure on the rules of this with the new CBA) but I always remember the talk on Griffey was that you could still keep his contract deferred.

 

Then you have actually about a 2 mill (in this years books) positive. This means the Sox could front the potential and take a little bit of a risk to build a world series competitor and see attendance numbers sore.

 

We know the Sox have talked Carlos Beltran. Well what if they land Beltran to play in the OF with Lee and Rowand. Then at the end of the year the Sox have Beltran signed long term, you may lose RJ, but if things pay off you keep RJ and sign him to a new deal (this would mean the Sox went deep and attendance sored). If not you cut your losses, get the draft pick and knwo you gave it your all. Konerko would of been a FA and Garland I think is also eligible for FA.

 

Maybe you don't opt for Beltran but go another route, its still an option. I think if you deal Konerko you can find a bat to semi replace him in the outfield leaving Everett and Thomas platooning at DH. Then next year the Sox could whipe out both Everett's and Thomas contract.

 

Basically put, while the Sox got some money invested in pitching, I'd agree that it isn't wise to get a long term contract pitching wise. So why not acquire Johnson. Konerko is better then Gload, but Gload is a solid player that fits nicely in the 6 or 7 spot in the lineup. He also helps unclog the lineup a bit.

 

You have RJ in the rotation so 1 through 4 your good. Lookin for a bargain FA pitcher if necessary (just a veteran to give you innings and keep you in the game, maybe give him some incentives....make it a one year deal). You have Bmac as the backup plan. Regardless the 1-4 is legitely awesome and you can't predict injuries so just hope they stay healthy.

 

Now you have to figure the Sox bump up payroll this year and sign Vizquel to a 2 yr deal. Then they look to add a big time bat to replace Konerko. Remember, they could add Beltran and then move Lee to DH or another team at the end of next year. You also have Sweeney/Anderson on the horizon in a couple years and could get Everett/Thomas contracts off the books next year freeing up more cash and positions for guys to play.

 

The Sox could realistically go heavy this year, knowing that if things don't work out the payroll will drop back down to a managable number (RJ's 16 mill off the books, Thomas loses about 6 mill off the books after buyout, Everetts 4.5 mill off the books, Lee you can trade and get his 8-9 mill of the books) and you'd still have Beltran/Buehrle/Garcia/Contreras/Rowand/Crede/Harris/Uribe/Gload essentially a solid nucleus still and if they wanted Carlos Lee, to give it another shot.

 

I'm saying this would be a brilliant deal and could open up the gates for the Sox to make one BIG TIME signing. Folks, I guarantee you Free Agents would take notice if RJ joined the ranks of the Sox. You bet your ass those players would see the Sox as more of a contender.

 

What would you say if the Sox did this or some alternative to this:

 

Sox Add:

- Randy Johnson (16 mill; 6 deferred)

- Carlos Beltran (17 mill)

- Omar Vizquel (4 mill)

- Cheap 5th starter (1 yr deal 3 mill)

- Reliever (1-3 mill)

 

Sox Give Up:

- Paul Konerko (8 mill)

- Jon Garland (4 mill)

 

The net result on the high end is a 25 million increase in payroll (not counting the deferred portion of RJ's salary). However it is a one year increase. Obviously this would be a little nuts to think of as possible. But if this doesn't work the following year the Sox an automatic drop of (10 mill from Johnson; 4.5 Everett; 6 Thomas; 3 mill from the starter signed to a 1 yr deal; 3 mill from the reliever signed to a 1 yr deal). Thats 26.5 mill alone, bringing payroll pretty much back in line while still fielding a competitive team with a core of attractive players. You then have options of dealing Lee and really dropping payroll or whatever else.

 

Simply put, the Sox could legitimately be in a position to make a heavy push this yer and take a shot. We know it isn't necessarily the Reinsdorf way, but it appears that if things went south, they would have the options to quickly fix the problem and get payroll back in line.

[Punch and Judy Garland]

I just don't see how any scenario under which we increae payroll 25 million is worth fathoming. No offense, but we might as well speculate what we could do with a $130 million dollar payroll because it's strictly fantasy to think about RJ and Beltran.

[beck72]

I'm saying this would be a brilliant deal and could open up the gates for the Sox to make one BIG TIME signing. Folks, I guarantee you Free Agents would take notice if RJ joined the ranks of the Sox.  You bet your ass those players would see the Sox as more of a contender.

That's a good point of attracting FA's if the Sox got Johnson in trade. [as has been mentioned, RJ would likely want the team to sign him to a 2006 extension, as well, for similar money as this yr. Yet Beltran wouldn't be possible, not for his $17-20 a yr long term contract. The Sox don't make a $25 mill jump in payroll. It doesn't fit their M.O. and it doesn't leave them any financial room come the deadline to fill any holes.

 

Still, with a RJ trade making the sox immediately legitimate in many players' eyes around the league, the sox could get a good shot at a closer/ set up man, and a vet 5th SP to compete for a job. That coupled with Ozzie making contacts around the league, I'd like the sox chances of signing another player or two [besides Vizquel].

[hitlesswonder]

Still, with a RJ trade making the sox immediately legitimate in many players' eyes around the league, the sox could get a good shot at a closer/ set up man, and a vet 5th SP to compete for a job. That coupled with Ozzie making contacts around the league, I'd like the sox chances of signing another player or two [besides Vizquel].

If the Sox take on Vizquel for 4 and Johnson for 16.5 (minus 12.5 or so for Konerko and Garland) they'll have raised payroll by about 8 million dollars over what it was at the end of last year to around 71 million (assuming they are at around 63 million now per the Cheat's blog). The Sox website & Trib have said payroll would come in around 65 million. So let's assume that wasn't true and they are willing to add payroll for Johnson and Vizquel. I still don't see them paying for a decent 5th and closer/setup man. A good setup reliever will take at least 3 million IMO (a mediocre starter would be about the same). A real closer (e.g. Benitez) would cost much more. I think, it's more likely Grilli will be in the rotation and a Mike Jackson-ish RP will be signed.

[Guest hawaiisoxfn]

f*** Jon Garland, but one year of RJ for PK who has a good couple of years in front of him is just not worth it. Arizona would definitely have to add something to the trade.

[santo=dorf]

f*** Jon Garland, but one year of RJ for PK who has a good couple of years in front of him is just not worth it. Arizona would definitely have to add something to the trade.

You say Konerko has a couple good years in front of him, but he is only signed for one year. So what difference does that extra year make if he's not even going to be paying for us in 2006 and beyond?

Would you rather have RJ for one year, or Konerko for one year?

[CWSGuy406]

Say this trade goes through...

 

Am I the only one who thinks, over the course of a season, Felix Diaz, at the very worst, would be able to put up at worst, a 5.50 ERA? I think he's got good enough control to where, he'd be a decent enough fifth starter. I sure as hell don't want Grilli, who has absolutely no control and not very good command, making many starts at the Cell.

[CWSOX45]

I'm pulling the trigger if I'm Kenny Williams. This is Randy Johnson guys. I don't care how old he is, he's still amazing. We need a guy like him in the front of the rotation.

 

As for losing Garland I remember hearing something about Esteban Loaiza wanting to come back to the White Sox.....does anyone know if his option was picked up by the Yanks?

 

CWSOX45

[Rowand44]

I'm pulling the trigger if I'm Kenny Williams. This is Randy Johnson guys. I don't care how old he is, he's still amazing. We need a guy like him in the front of the rotation.

 

As for losing Garland I remember hearing something about Esteban Loaiza wanting to come back to the White Sox.....does anyone know if his option was picked up by the Yanks?

 

CWSOX45

Good post, if this trade goes through, I honestly wouldn't be surprised to see esty back here.

[Guest hawaiisoxfn]

You say Konerko has a couple good years in front of him, but he is only signed for one year.  So what difference does that extra year make if he's not even going to be paying for us in 2006 and beyond?

Would you rather have RJ for one year, or Konerko for one year?

RJ probably has one more year left, but definitely no more than two. Konerko might have one year left but theres also a good possibility that he will resign and have many more years with us.