spataro51 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I hope this deal will go through, but i don;t see it happening anytime soon. I see it happenng after the big name free agents sign and pieces start to fall for other teams. RJ would be perfect for us just as long as he stays healthy which he should. Does this mean kw will still have to find another starter or will he go with grilli as the 5th Johnson, Buehrle, Garcia, Contreas, grilli? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Honda Civic Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 You're basing your figures off the base figure (16 mil) of Johnsons contract. I've read posts within this thread detailing a certain amount of deferred salary. Deffered salary becomes guarenteed when a player is traded... (per CBA via other posts in this thread) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Yes I have, why can't I express my opinion? Well you didn't say why he would do "nothing." You also quote the first post in the thread. Â Johnson makes this team a serious threat in the playoffs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Current Payroll....$63.00M(about) Konerko.............(8.75) Garland.............(3.00) Johnson.............16.00 ========================= Adjusted Payroll...$67.25 Add Vizquel..........4.00 ========================= Adjusted Payroll...$71.25 I wouldn't mind the trade that much if payroll was increased to $80 mill. Even then, it's still tough to give up on Garland, but if we could sign another starter to replace him, then I could live better with this deal. If there was a way to do Cheat's B deal (Arizona would be interested in local boy Anderson), then we could keep Garland and use the remaining money to sign a closer or some outfield and DH insurance for Thomas and Everett or even possibly a new catcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Well you didn't say why he would do "nothing." You also quote the first post in the thread. Johnson makes this team a serious threat in the playoffs. That's if we make the playoffs. It's certainly not a foregone conclusion, and I wouldn't like our chances that much of making it if Grilli or Diaz was our 5th starter. Otherwise B-Mac would probably be pushed up to the role mid - season and it's probably too early for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Deffered salary becomes guarenteed when a player is traded... (per CBA via other posts in this thread) Damn. Â Well that crushes my argument. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierSox Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Id do this trade as long as there is no Anderson, Sweeney, McCarthy, or Fields involved. Sounds like a good law firm doesnt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xero Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Well you didn't say why he would do "nothing." You also quote the first post in the thread. Johnson makes this team a serious threat in the playoffs. Yeah, and you will be sorry once he retires in a 2 years after 2 dismal seasons with the Sox and Garland goes on and is an All-Star... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 All I am concered about with the deal is the 5th starter spot. I would be perfectly fine with Garland being traded along with Paully for Radny IF Kenny goes out and gets ANOTHER starter that can at least get 8-12 wins from the 5th spot. I wont put up with Grilli/Diaz in the 5th hole another year. My thoughts on the subject too. That's why I thought at least if you get Lieber, you have 5 quality starters. But I don't think JR would push payroll up to $80 million then, so at the moment it's a wait and see to see what happens with this situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Id do this trade as long as there is no Anderson, Sweeney, McCarthy, or Fields involved. Fields would have to be a PTBNL, he was just drafted and can't be traded until a year after his drafting. To me that would reduce the odds of him being in a deal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Fields would have to be a PTBNL, he was just drafted and can't be traded until a year after his drafting. To me that would reduce the odds of him being in a deal. I'd pretty much call Fields the untouchable of our minor league prospects at the moment, because of the likelihood that he'll be up here in 2006 and we just don't know what's going to happen with Crede. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Id do this trade as long as there is no Anderson, Sweeney, McCarthy, or Fields involved. If competition for Johnson grows fierce, Williams may become desperate and include one of those prospects. That's what freightens me. Â No one on this site believed Olivo would be included in a Garcia trade. Who knows if another player previously labeled as 'untouchable' becomes bait. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Yeah, and you will be sorry once he retires in a 2 years after 2 dismal seasons with the Sox and Garland goes on and is an All-Star... "Garland an All-star" That some funny s***. The only way Garland would be an all-star is because they have to pick the best player from that s***f*** of a team in Arizona, and I bet he would still have an ERA over 4.5. My plan is to get RJ for 2005 only. Â I love it how some of you draw the conclusion that Garland will be a better pitcher than Randy next year or 2 years beyond. What are you basing that on? Randy has FAR better numbers than Garland since 2000, and even in the year he was hurt (2003,) his numbers were better than what Garland has been put up in the rotation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redandwhite Posted November 9, 2004 Author Share Posted November 9, 2004 I wouldn't mind the trade that much if payroll was increased to $80 mill. Even then, it's still tough to give up on Garland, but if we could sign another starter to replace him, then I could live better with this deal. If there was a way to do Cheat's B deal (Arizona would be interested in local boy Anderson), then we could keep Garland and use the remaining money to sign a closer or some outfield and DH insurance for Thomas and Everett or even possibly a new catcher. This team financially cannot have an 80 million dollar payroll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WHarris1 Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 This team financially cannot have an 80 million dollar payroll. With RJ attendance will be way up to start the year and it will stay way up since in all likely hood we will still be in the race. Â I think it's possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 That's if we make the playoffs. It's certainly not a foregone conclusion, and I wouldn't like our chances that much of making it if Grilli or Diaz was our 5th starter. Otherwise B-Mac would probably be pushed up to the role mid - season and it's probably too early for him. Once again:  Here's the potential of two staffs:  Johnson (20-22 Wins) Buehrle (18-20 Wins) Garcia (16-18 Wins) Contreras (12-15 Wins) Your momma/Grilli/Diaz (4-6 Wins)<-------They could probably get more in a full season, but I'll leave it at that.  70-81 wins  Buehrle (18-20 Wins) Garcia (16-18 Wins) FA, no guarantee of signing anyone notable (unknown) Contreras (12-15 Wins) Garland (11-14 Wins) 57-67  So unless we sign a FA pitcher who'll win 13-14 games for the Sox in 2005, I really don't see why people should b**** about the 5th starter's spot if we get RJ.  Do you actually think JR will go out an sign a pitcher who will win 13-14 games for us next year to a multiyear deal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Once again: Here's the potential of two staffs:  Johnson (20-22 Wins) Buehrle (18-20 Wins) Garcia (16-18 Wins) Contreras (12-15 Wins) Your momma/Grilli/Diaz (4-6 Wins)  70-81 wins  Buehrle (18-20 Wins) Garcia (16-18 Wins) FA, no guarantee of signing anyone notable (unknown) Contreras (12-15 Wins) Garland (11-14 Wins) 57-67  So unless we sign a FA pitcher who'll win 13-14 games for the Sox in 2005, I really don't see why people should b**** about the 5th starter's spot if we get RJ.  Do you actually think JR will go out an sign a pitcher who will win 13-14 games for us next year to a multiyear deal? Yes, Yes I do. There are so many quality starters out there on the FA market that I think we should and will be able to sign a starter if we don't trade for RJ. Also you are assuming that RJ will win 20 to 22 games for us. Don't forget he'll be moving to a hitter's friendly park at the Cell which will inflate his numbers, and you are assuming he'll pitch in every game he's meant to start, which I don't think will be possible. It's probably going to take 90 wins to win this division, we need a 5th starter who can win at least 8 to 12 games for that to be possible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 I think he has 2 maybe 3 more years left in the tank jmo. and so does this current sox team before another white flag trade. Maybe they sign delgado with some more flexibility in the budget Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 and so does this current sox team before another white flag trade. Maybe they sign delgado with some more flexibility in the budget With Ross Gload there's no need for that. That money would be better spent on a closer, or some outfield / DH insurance for Thomas and Everett. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santo=dorf Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Yes, Yes I do. There are so many quality starters out there on the FA market that I think we should and will be able to sign a starter if we don't trade for RJ. Also you are assuming that RJ will win 20 to 22 games for us. Don't forget he'll be moving to a hitter's friendly park at the Cell which will inflate his numbers, and you are assuming he'll pitch in every game he's meant to start, which I don't think will be possible. It's probably going to take 90 wins to win this division, we need a 5th starter who can win at least 8 to 12 games for that to be possible. Who do you think we will be able to sign, why, and at what price? The only guy I can think of is Russ Ortiz, and I don't think he can win 13-14 games with the Sox. Â I think RJ could win 20 games with us because with the exception of Detroit, he owns the AL Central. And I find the argument of "he's going to be playing in a hitter's park" weak because a.) he is a strikeout pitcher, and b.)our offensive plays at the same ballpark at the same time as the other team. Randy may not win games by a score of 3-1 at USCF, but I see him winning a lot of 7-4, 8-5 games. Â You say it'll take at least 90 wins to win the division, and I have given you 71-80, which means it would take 10-19 comeback wins, bullpen victories, or extra innings victories to win the division. Look up and tell which 5 man rotation had the most wins last year and if it was anywhere close to the 71-80 figure that I projected. And this talk about "it'll take a 5th starter with 8-12 wins to make it happen" makes no sense to me. Do we still need a fifth starter with 8-12 wins after we get RJ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flash Tizzle Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 This brings up a whole 'nother thread, but looking how Olivo finished this season, would you be comfertable with him going into this season at catcher. I would still be a bit worried. Alot of guys were stealing on him even though he has a great arm, his big knock against him was he couldnt call a good game, and his hitting was not very spectacular at all in Seattle. Obivously we will see how the trade turned out in 5+ years, but mabye Olvio wanst that valuable. My intention of mentioning Miguel is how we (the fans) created possible trade scenarios for Garcia; none of which included MO. Yes, his numbers this season were dismal, but rewind to that afternoon and I guarantee not many were jumping at his departure. Â Attempting to predict a package for Johnson is difficult because: 1. Other teams may offer equally impressive talent, 2. KW is controlling this trade. The article suggest Konerko/Garland/prospect, but will other offers materialize if Williams feels another club is close to acquiring him? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Ok let's say we do this deal. We'd be getting Randy Johnson for 3 or 4 players. What if though, we trade Konerko and Carl Everett plus $1 or $2 mill to the O's for Larry Bigbie, Jerry Hairston Jr. and Jorge Julio. We can then trade Carlos Lee, Willie Harris, and a prospect or 2 not named McCarthy, Anderson or Sweeney for Tim Hudson and Eric Byrnes. Eventually we'd be getting Hariston, Bigbie, Julio, Tim Hudson and Eric Byrnes for about 4 or 5 players, with only 2 who are all - star material. Your lineup would then look like this,  2B - Jerry Hairston Jr. SS - Omar Vizquel LF - Eric Byrnes DH - Frank Thomas 1B - Ross Gload CF - Aaron Rowand RF - Larry Bigbie 3B - Joe Crede C - Ben Davis or Jamie Burke Utility man - Juan Uribe  Rotation #1 - Tim Hudson #2 - Mark Buerhle #3 - Freddy Garcia #4 - Jose Contreras #5 - Jon Garland  Bullpen Neal Cotts Jon Adkins Cliff Politte Damaso Marte Felix Diaz Shingo Takatsu Jorge Julio  Also, could Randy Johnson put up 300 K's. He very well could. But there's a big risk of him getting injured, and not pitching for us much at all. Frankly, I don't think we can take that chance when we're giving up a lot. honestly, do we have to post this same lineup paragraph on every board that is hot???? We have all seen it, realize it will never happen, just move on, thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
witesoxfan Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Once again: Here's the potential of two staffs:  Johnson (20-22 Wins) Buehrle (18-20 Wins) Garcia (16-18 Wins) Contreras (12-15 Wins) Your momma/Grilli/Diaz (4-6 Wins)  70-81 wins  Buehrle (18-20 Wins) Garcia (16-18 Wins) FA, no guarantee of signing anyone notable (unknown) Contreras (12-15 Wins) Garland (11-14 Wins) 57-67  So unless we sign a FA pitcher who'll win 13-14 games for the Sox in 2005, I really don't see why people should b**** about the 5th starter's spot if we get RJ.  Do you actually think JR will go out an sign a pitcher who will win 13-14 games for us next year to a multiyear deal? That's flawed logic. You are using 5 starters with RJ compared to the 4 of the one without RJ, but have Garland remain in the #5 hole, suggesting that we would sign a SP.  If that were to be the case...you'd have to assume 10 wins out of that spot in the rotation...and perhaps knock it up to between 15 and 18 wins too.  Once that is done, it is a lot clearer that RJ does not help the team nearly as much as one would like in the regular season. The postseason is an entirely different beast...a rotation of RJ-Garcia-Buehrle is top notch.  I am for trading for RJ...but am not in favor of doing it if it involves Garland while not getting a good replacement for Garland. Trading Konerko and Garland, to me, restricts the team way too much financially and does not really help us win a whole lot more ball games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 Yes, Yes I do. There are so many quality starters out there on the FA market that I think we should and will be able to sign a starter if we don't trade for RJ. Also you are assuming that RJ will win 20 to 22 games for us. Don't forget he'll be moving to a hitter's friendly park at the Cell which will inflate his numbers, and you are assuming he'll pitch in every game he's meant to start, which I don't think will be possible. It's probably going to take 90 wins to win this division, we need a 5th starter who can win at least 8 to 12 games for that to be possible. dont forget that in every aspect of the game, he should of won the cy young after this past season, if his team would score more than 1 run. Not exactly just another FA pitcher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babybearhater Posted November 9, 2004 Share Posted November 9, 2004 With Ross Gload there's no need for that. That money would be better spent on a closer, or some outfield / DH insurance for Thomas and Everett. I could live with that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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