beck72 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Scott Gregor of the Daily Herald said that the most likely KW move would be signing a FA SP, w/ Matt Clement being the "prime candidate". I don't know if I buy it. Yet w/ clement being around Chi. the last few yrs, Gregor might have heard some whispers. [And if clement likes Chi. why move to another city when you can stay for 3, 4 more yrs?] Signing Clement is more likely then trading for RJ, or one of the big 3 [which would cost a lot of talent, not much cash], esp as the sox need to fill their other holes. They would have money left over to trade for a Kendall, and possibly another guy for the IF [prob not Renteria though he may come under $10 mill a yr] http://www.dailyherald.com/sports/sports_s...?intID=38311103 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I'm glad to see that the Sox now want to sign a #3 starter instead of trading for RJ, which prob ain't gonna happen. Clement I wouldn't mind, so long as the Sox medical staff check out his arm 100% to make sure there's no long lasting damage from last season. He would pitch well at the Cell with his grounball / flyball ratio. Of course, I'd still prefer Jon Lieber or Odalis Perez, who both would probably fall into our price range at about the 5 to $6 million mark, but if they can get Clement for a little less than that, I'd still be fairly happy, as then KW can concentrate to fill other needs, and that little bit of cash saved could be the difference between someone like Renteria or Polanco possibly signing here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Share Posted November 20, 2004 I'm glad to see that the Sox now want to sign a #3 starter instead of trading for RJ, which prob ain't gonna happen. Clement I wouldn't mind, so long as the Sox medical staff check out his arm 100% to make sure there's no long lasting damage from last season. He would pitch well at the Cell with his grounball / flyball ratio. Of course, I'd still prefer Jon Lieber or Odalis Perez, who both would probably fall into our price range at about the 5 to $6 million mark, but if they can get Clement for a little less than that, I'd still be fairly happy, as then KW can concentrate to fill other needs, and that little bit of cash saved could be the difference between someone like Renteria or Polanco possibly signing here. Going after a #1 SP seemed to be the Sox 1st choice. Yet that sounds less likely. Getting a #3 [Clement or the 2 you mentioned] would still help the Sox. That leaves more money to fill other holes. I look for something sooner rather than later With the garland signing, I look for him to be dealt soon. No way would he have gotten a $1.1 mill raise in ARB. If they were looking to keep him they would have let it go to ARB. It must be better for trades to get him signed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Toronto is hot after Clement, but I would love it if the Sox could get either him or Lieber. Clement's health may be an issue but if he checks out clean he's a good addition. My preference is Leiber because he walks almost no one. Plus, he's a terrific ground ball pitcher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Toronto is hot after Clement, but I would love it if the Sox could get either him or Lieber. Clement's health may be an issue but if he checks out clean he's a good addition. My preference is Leiber because he walks almost no one. Plus, he's a terrific ground ball pitcher. I am just trying to put myself in clements place. Toronto or the whitesox. Hmm I get 75 cents to the dollar if I choose Canada, I would need to move and will play in arguably a division that cannot be won. At best I am in 4th place. Or I can stay in chicago, Make 8 million, be a solid number 3 on a team that could win the division if they get a few more players. if it was me I would love to pitch in the easiest division located in the midwest and make good coin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBAHO Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I am just trying to put myself in clements place. Toronto or the whitesox. Hmm I get 75 cents to the dollar if I choose Canada, I would need to move and will play in arguably a division that cannot be won. At best I am in 4th place. Or I can stay in chicago, Make 8 million, be a solid number 3 on a team that could win the division if they get a few more players. if it was me I would love to pitch in the easiest division located in the midwest and make good coin. Toronto's current pitching coach used to be employed by the Florida Marlins when Clement was pitching there, and apparently the two are very close, so that'll factor into negotiations no doubt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Toronto's current pitching coach used to be employed by the Florida Marlins when Clement was pitching there, and apparently the two are very close, so that'll factor into negotiations no doubt. While I do not doubt you, I would never sign a contract based on a pitching coach. these guys get fired all the time. Unless i can write the guys name in the contract I just wouldn't base the next 3-5 years on some coach. Just my opinion. I realize players do things for different reasons. Garcia wanted to play for OZzie but if the money wasn't there he would not have played for him. No biggie, just offering another perspective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chisoxfn Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Toronto is hot after Clement, but I would love it if the Sox could get either him or Lieber. Clement's health may be an issue but if he checks out clean he's a good addition. My preference is Leiber because he walks almost no one. Plus, he's a terrific ground ball pitcher. Lieber was offered a 2yr 12 mill deal from the Yanks reportedly. I think he'd be hard pressed to turn that down. I think a similar offer, maybe over 3 years (3 yr 18-20 mill) could land you Clement. I also think Clement could even consider a 2 yr 12 mill deal, but I think he's going to want another year or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I am just trying to put myself in clements place. Toronto or the whitesox. Hmm I get 75 cents to the dollar if I choose Canada, I would need to move and will play in arguably a division that cannot be won. At best I am in 4th place. Or I can stay in chicago, Make 8 million, be a solid number 3 on a team that could win the division if they get a few more players. if it was me I would love to pitch in the easiest division located in the midwest and make good coin. Even if he sign's in Toronto, the contract will call for US Dollars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winninguglyin83 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 i'd take either Lieber or Clement. prefer lieber because he throws strikes and should be even better this season because a number of pitchers are in their second season back after arm surgery but either one makes our pitching much improved Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Even if he sign's in Toronto, the contract will call for US Dollars I am fine with that argument, but my point still stands, play in chicago or play in Toronto. If the money is the same or even near the same, I am staying in the states. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Bartman's my idol Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I would take either Clement or Lieber, but CLTV this morning reported that Toronto is close to signing Clement, come on Kenny, get off your ass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YASNY Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I am fine with that argument, but my point still stands, play in chicago or play in Toronto. If the money is the same or even near the same, I am staying in the states. Agreed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 If the money is the same or even near the same And here is the key issue. Good chance the Sox get outbid, or it's not even close. If Toronto has this guy targeted it's very possible they'll overpay. If it's me I go after Leiber first and then Clement. Something about Clement's health scares me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quickman Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 And here is the key issue. Good chance the Sox get outbid, or it's not even close. If Toronto has this guy targeted it's very possible they'll overpay. If it's me I go after Leiber first and then Clement. Something about Clement's health scares me. Ok don't want to make this a big deal. I too agree on leiber, but my point was if the money is near I would stay in the states for the reasons I wrote. I don't think the sox will make a big slash anyway. Why get the fans hope up! Should be a nice volitile Sox fest again this year. I wonder how those season ticket renewels are coming along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JimH Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Ok don't want to make this a big deal. I too agree on leiber, but my point was if the money is near I would stay in the states for the reasons I wrote. I don't think the sox will make a big slash anyway. Why get the fans hope up! Should be a nice volitile Sox fest again this year. I wonder how those season ticket renewels are coming along. I think they're waiting until after 12/7 so they don't give up draft choices, waiting to see who doesn't get offered arbitration and the whole non-tender situation after 12/19. If they make any moves my guess is we're talking January. Right before SoxFest, go figure. Hope I'm wrong, would love to see them do something soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dick Allen Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 I'd rather have Leiber as well. Clement's shoulder is a time bomb, and while he has exceptional stuff, his overall performance always seems to come up mediocre at the end of the season. When the Sox made that ill-advised trade with Pittsburgh for Ritchie, they had thought Ritchie was th next Lieber. Why not get the real thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3E8 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Weird, I had a dream last night that we signed Clement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Even if he sign's in Toronto, the contract will call for US Dollars But he does still have to pay Canadian taxes for every game he plays in Canada. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Share Posted November 20, 2004 It makes sense that teams will wait until after the arb. deadline so they won't have to give up draft picks. If the sox are interested in a guy, chances are they make an offer until the guy has at least one on the table [don't want to get burned like Vizquel w/ a team swooping in]. Until we hear some #3's [like Lieber, Clement, Perez] getting offers, my guess is the sox name won't be mentioned at all in media reports. If their name is talked about after a guy gets a public offer, that would mean they're serious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TLAK Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Lieber was offered a 2yr 12 mill deal from the Yanks reportedly. I think he'd be hard pressed to turn that down. I think a similar offer, maybe over 3 years (3 yr 18-20 mill) could land you Clement. I also think Clement could even consider a 2 yr 12 mill deal, but I think he's going to want another year or two. I think thats way too much money for this guy. He made $6 mil last year going 9-13 for a team that contended into the last week end of the season. That same team, who knows him better than anyone, is letting him walk. I know all about the lack of run support but, for example, he only had he had 18 quality starts. Compare to whipping boy Jon Garland's 16. (MB had 24!). Clements a nice pitcher but I don't think he commands that kind of money. Add in the questions about his health and I think it best to let Toronto have him at that price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Share Posted November 20, 2004 Here's how I see things working out: 1] Garland is traded before the Dec. 7th arb deadline [prob to Pitt for Kendall and cash, w/ Kendall making $6 mill ayr] payroll now around $65 mill 2] Pk could be traded before Dec 7th, for a solid arm for the bullpen and prospects [payroll down to $55 mill] 3] sox sign a #3 SP after 12-7 for $6, 7 mill [payroll at $62 mill] after this, who knows what will pan out. Probably depends on who is still available via free agency, etc. *4 A] sox sign a FA RFer like Dye or Hidalgo for $5, 6 mill [payroll under or near $70 mill] Ideally, an OFer who could play 1B as well, to hit vs LHP would be nice protection for Gload here. But names escape me]; could get a veteran for the 5th SP spot for $1-2 mill, as well *4 B] A long shot would be signing Renteria at $9 mill a yr instead of an OFer--making payroll just over $70 mill [then bring in scrap heap SP's like the Sox did w/ Loaiza in 2003] *sox bring two scrap heap pitchers to compete for the 5th SP spot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
southsider2k5 Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 It makes sense that teams will wait until after the arb. deadline so they won't have to give up draft picks. If the sox are interested in a guy, chances are they make an offer until the guy has at least one on the table [don't want to get burned like Vizquel w/ a team swooping in]. Until we hear some #3's [like Lieber, Clement, Perez] getting offers, my guess is the sox name won't be mentioned at all in media reports. If their name is talked about after a guy gets a public offer, that would mean they're serious. And on the other side of that coin, you can beat teams to players if you jump on them before the Arbit deadline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoshPR Posted November 20, 2004 Share Posted November 20, 2004 Get Both Lieber and CLement. I think Garland can learn something from Lieber Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beck72 Posted November 20, 2004 Author Share Posted November 20, 2004 And on the other side of that coin, you can beat teams to players if you jump on them before the Arbit deadline. True. The recent signings show that teams will overpay to get who they want. I don't see the Sox doing that. Others will. But I haven't heard of many offers for the vast majority of SP's out there only the Pedro's and Pavano's]--esp. the #3's the sox might be looking at Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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