Artest gone for the Season

[DBAHO]

You can vote for 2 at the position.

Meh, in that case I'll vote Artest. I'm already starting to hear trade rumors with Ron now as well. Sacramento could have been interested earlier for a Peja for Artest swap but that ain't gonna happen now. New Orleans could have interest, and so do the home - town Knicks, and you know Isiah would do all he could to get Ron back.

[Palehosefan]

Dan LeBatard

The Miami Herald

 

It is lazy to say it is the responsibility of the athletes to remain rational, calm and professional in these instances. You might not remain so rational, calm and professional if someone came into your emotion-and-intensity-soaked workplace and hit you in the head with something. And you might not remain so rational, calm and professional if you saw an angry mob surrounding your scared friend in a fight, either.

 

Don't make the rules different for the athletes than you would make them for yourself.

 

You don't throw chairs and beer and ice and soda and garbage at athletes or anybody else. And, if you step on the court at any time, especially during an NBA fight, you deserve to get punched in the face.

 

Thanks for posting that greasy, couldn't have said it any better myself.

[Spiff]

It will be a cold day in hell before I value anything Dan LeBatard has to say.

[CanOfCorn]

Yes, Ben Wallace instigated a fight...with Artest.

Yes, a fan threw a bottle at Artest.

Yes, Artest should be angry.

Maybe even angry enough to charge the fan. But, here are some other things to consider...

 

1) When you have three people charging into the stands against an angry, drunken mob, that's just not smart. Talk about making it even more dangerous. That's called instigating a riot.

 

2) Artest escalated it after by being smug and lying on the scorer's table with crossed legs and his hands behind his head. That's not staying out of a fight, that's showing Ben Wallace up.

 

3) I don't know if you saw the kids after the fight but there was a shot of a kid, probably around 6 or 7 crying. How the hell do you explain to your children that your favorite player just coldcocked someone. Did the fan deserve it? You bet he did. But let the police handle it. Show some restraint.

 

Artest obviously needs psychological help. Stephen Jackson needs some good ol' fashioned jail time and O'Neal basically got the shaft.

 

Bottom line...fans need to show some serious restraint or face the consequences...jail time, loss of season tickets, barred from the stadium, whatever. But, athletes CANNOT attack fans. Fans pay salaries. the actions of 10 fans doesn't mirror the feelings of the other 21,000 people in there. Those fans should be tossed in jail for a good long time. Still, no fans, no game. If Stern didn't hand out such severe penalties, the NBA was going to face some HUGE PR problems. More than Jayson Williams, more than Zach Randolph. Those problems didn't deal with fans in the stadium...fans can divorce themselves of those issues...not this one.

 

I, for one, back David Stern 100% and hope that Artest can get some professional help.

[whitesox61382]

Ben "Thug Life" Wallace....  :rolly

 

It's unbelievable.

 

Some of y'all obviously don't watch enough basketball...shoving matches take place all the freaking time.  But Ben Wallace instigated it!!!!  Come on, now.  I've seen Jordan shove guys.  I've seen Shaq going at it with Alvin Robertson, Charles Barkley, etc.  I've seen Bird throwing punches.  Nobody is above it.

 

Seriously, I'm disappointed (edit: maybe disgusted was too strong of a word) with quite a few of you.  I have come to expect better.  Anyone who places any blame on Wallace should not be talking about basketball, period.  Ben Wallace is not a thug.  He's a quiet, unassuming, big teddy-bear of a man.  Do some research on his character, lifestyle, etc. This is not a malicious individual.  He is the anti-Artest.

 

Sincerely:

I think it is you that needs to get a clue. Justifing uncalled for actions because he doesn't have a history of it is one of the stupidest things I have heard in a long time. An extreme example, I am a law bidding/tax paying citizen my entire life, but I commit a murder. Should my actions not be punished because I don't have a history of breaking the law. Is the murder that I commited any better or worse then a murder commited by someone that has a history of breaking the law. Is the end result, a person being murder, any different in either situation? Of course not, so please don't make yourself look like an idiot by saying things that you did.

 

Furthermore, how is Wallace's actions much different from O'Neal? In fact, I think you can make an arguement that Wallace's actions were worse then O'Neal. In both cases, they essentially threw punches at another person. The major difference is that Wallace was the instigator in his situation and had no just reason for throwing his punch. O'Neal's punch was justified in some ways because it was self defense. Any time a fan runs onto the court, especially in a situation like the one that occured on Friday night, he becomes a threat to the player(or do you think he went onto the court to ask O'Neal for his autograph). So please justify O'Neal getting punishment that is almost 5x as harsh as the punishment that Wallace received(please use some more of your messed up backwards logic to justify this one). Because he threw a punch at a fan opposed to a player? Get a clue. Not to mention the fact, that if Wallace doesn't overreact, than this whole incident doesn't occur. In a round-about way he is directly response for the fans overreacting, but he is a good person so he shouldn't be punished(get a clue). Do you personally know Wallace? Then how in the world can you accurately say that he is a good person, because he seems like a nice guy on the court or in press conferences. Wasn't the same thing being said about Kobe, but when the incident in Colorado occured all you heard about were reports of how much of an asshole he was(things that were never mentioned/known before hand). Maybe we will find out that Wallace isn't the angel that you crack him up to be, although it appears that you are easily manipulated by what other people say. Furthermore, not taking responsibility for your actions is one of the most classless things you can do, yet angel boy did that as well. Open your eyes to reality and pull your head out of Wallace's ass.

[Spiff]

Again, what Jermaine O'Neal did was not self-defense. I would love to see you people try to prove that in court.

[CanOfCorn]

It has nothing to do with Wallace or O'Neal being good or bad people. It has to do with player vs. fan. If Wallace got into a fight with Artest, O'Neal and Jackson and kept it on the court, they probably would all get 5-15 game suspensions. Wallace threw a punch at a player, not a fan. And since the NBA is so concerned with their image (which they should be) O'Neal gets hosed. if Wallace went into the stands and fought with the fans too, he would probably get a similar suspension to O'Neal (of course, I'm speculating).

 

That's the difference...player vs. fan VS. player vs. player.

[Controlled Chaos]

I can't believe those of you defending Artest just cause you like the Pacers. He is a piece of s*** thug that can care less about the team. So you know where I stand, I can give a f*** about the pacers, pistons, or the bulls for that matter, so I have no bias.

 

The Artest punishment is right on and I hope he gets sued for millions more. He epitomizes the typical selfish athlete. While I think Wallace shoving him was bulls***, cause it wasn't even a flagrant foul...I think Artest lying on the scores table while his "entourage" fought his battle for him was typical thug style. I'll just sit here while me posse handles this.

 

Steve Jackson should have more than 30...he looked like he was in a typical street fight....just looking to fight anyone that he could. As for Artest punching that guy on the floor...I have no problem with it. At that point it was bedlam and any fan that wanted to stay out of it would have not gone to the floor. That dude was looking for trouble and got what was coming to him.

 

35% of the NBA would probably be in a gang if they couldn't ball. They are mostly punks. The ones that do go to college, don't learn much of anything let alone maturity, and the ones straight outta high school don't even get the chance to learn it.

[Queen Prawn]

The thing I found frightening is that Artest has 4 kids. I can only imagine what they were thinking or what they learned by watching that happen.

[whitesox61382]

Again, what Jermaine O'Neal did was not self-defense.  I would love to see you people try to prove that in court.

Obviously you are a lawyer, because that is very easy to defend. Here are two examples of some what similar situations.

 

1) When Diaz was attacked. The intent of the fan was to injury Diaz, and Diaz responded by using the force that he deemed necessary. In this case, Diaz's well being was put in danger. The O'Neal incident was not very different. Any time a fan charges the court and comes close to a player(especially after the fights in the stands) it becomes a threat to the player with no ifs, ands, or buts. When a players well being is threatened he has the right to use the force that he deems necessary to defend himself. In our criminal justice system the intent of the person is one of the most important things, and in this case it is VERY easy to show that the intent of the fan was a danger to the players. Furthermore, I love how we hold athletes to a higher standard. Athletes should refrain from such actions. The Pacers players should have walked away according to everyone, but what about the fans? Do they not have the same responsibility to walk away? If a fight in the stands occurs between fans and players, than shouldn't fans head for the exits for their safety and the safety of the people involved? There is no justification for the fan to enter the court when an event like that occurs. It is clear what his intent was(wasn't asking for O'Neal's autograph), and that is a threat to the player and justification for self defense. Welcome to criminal justice 101.

 

2) This example I have to thank to Rex for. It is more of a real life situation, but it shows the same overall situation. If someone breaks into your house, than you have the right to defend yourself with the force you deem necessary to prevent the threat to your life(even if the person B and E is unarmed). Obviously if you kill the individual, than you have to prove that the force you used was necessary. If you punch the person in the face(causing damage to the persons face), and hold him down to the police arrive, than it is almost always thrown out because the force fits the standards of being necessary, but not excessive. This is similar to the O'Neal situation because the floor/field is essentially O'Neal's house(of any other player/coach/ref). The fans have no right to enter the playing field under any circumstances. The mere fact that the fan entered the court causes a threat to the players well being and allows him to use the force deemed necessary to defend himself. Once again welcome to criminal justice 101.

 

It is very easy to prove that O'Neal was using self defense. The only arguement that can be made against O'Neal is that he used excesses force. You might be able to prove that O'Neal could have used less force to protect himself. However, it is a clear case of self defense since the fan illegally entered the playing field and presented an immediate danger to the players involved. Any other legal advice will cost you in the future Spiff.

 

Dybber, this goes back to the arguement that players are held to a higher standard, which is not fair or legal(IMO). Whether you hit a fan or a player, you are using violence on another person. It shouldn't matter that the person was a fan or player, and that is the point that most people don't understand.

[Soxbadger]

Lets not confuse the court for castle doctrine in the law, because I doubt any lawyer or judge will consider protecting a basketball court as priviliged as protecting your house or your family, which is where the castle doctrine originated.

 

As for whether it was self-defense, part of self-defense can include the protection of your friend, if a person in the same position as you would have thought that your friend was in danger, legitimate or not.

 

I have not seen the fight, but self-defense is not that hard to prove.

 

With out seeing it, I can not really give an opinion either way, but I will say that I doubt there is much done criminally about the fight, but that there may be alot of civil lawsuits.

 

The difference, beyond a reasonable doubt and preponderance of the evidence. The first standard for crimes, is much harder to prove than the second standard for civil actions. IE: If you have even a slight belief that what O'Neal did was self-defense you can not convict him, this is not true in civil cases.

 

Also, a criminal case is brought by the district attorney, and not by the fan. So it will be the DA's choice whether or not to prosecute, and you can bet if they go after O'Neal, they will make huge examples of any of the fans as well.

 

Id give my opinion on the verdicts and what defenses may be raised, but I never saw the fight, so I can only say so much.

 

SB

[greasywheels121]

I think it was Palehose that brought up this point, and I agree 100%...

 

The NBA basically is saying that it's okay for fans to batter players, and teammates should not support each other.

 

Good job NBA.

[Purdue129]

I think it was Palehose that brought up this point, and I agree 100%...

 

The NBA basically is saying that it's okay for fans to batter players, and teammates should not support each other.

 

Good job NBA. 

The NBA is also letting the proper authorities prosecute the fans... i.e. the Detroit cops.

 

Dealing with the players needed to be done quickly, which they did. I'm sure they're working on security measures for the arenas right now.

 

Anyone with any business sense can see why they had to go after the players hard and fast. The NBA knew it would risk losing more and more fans the longer it waited to hand down a verdict or if they went soft on the players.

[hammerhead johnson]

I think it is you that needs to get a clue. Justifing uncalled for actions because he doesn't have a history of it is one of the stupidest things I have heard in a long time. An extreme example, I am a law bidding/tax paying citizen my entire life, but I commit a murder. Should my actions not be punished because I don't have a history of breaking the law. Is the murder that I commited any better or worse then a murder commited by someone that has a history of breaking the law. Is the end result, a person being murder, any different in either situation? Of course not, so please don't make yourself look like an idiot by saying things that you did.

 

Furthermore, how is Wallace's actions much different from O'Neal? In fact, I think you can make an arguement that Wallace's actions were worse then O'Neal. In both cases, they essentially threw punches at another person. The major difference is that Wallace was the instigator in his situation and had no just reason for throwing his punch. O'Neal's punch was justified in some ways because it was self defense. Any time a fan runs onto the court, especially in a situation like the one that occured on Friday night, he becomes a threat to the player(or do you think he went onto the court to ask O'Neal for his autograph). So please justify O'Neal getting punishment that is almost 5x as harsh as the punishment that Wallace received(please use some more of your messed up backwards logic to justify this one). Because he threw a punch at a fan opposed to a player? Get a clue. Not to mention the fact, that if Wallace doesn't overreact, than this whole incident doesn't occur. In a round-about way he is directly response for the fans overreacting, but he is a good person so he shouldn't be punished(get a clue). Do you personally know Wallace? Then how in the world can you accurately say that he is a good person, because he seems like a nice guy on the court or in press conferences. Wasn't the same thing being said about Kobe, but when the incident in Colorado occured all you heard about were reports of how much of an asshole he was(things that were never mentioned/known before hand). Maybe we will find out that Wallace isn't the angel that you crack him up to be, although it appears that you are easily manipulated by what other people say. Furthermore, not taking responsibility for your actions is one of the most classless things you can do, yet angel boy did that as well. Open your eyes to reality and pull your head out of Wallace's ass.

Oh my god

 

Did you miss the part where I said that shoving matches are common in the NBA? Seriously, do you even bother watching?

 

If you call Wallace a thug, you have to call anyone who gets into a shoving match (Bird, Jordan, Shaq, etc) a thug...did this concept fly right the f*** over your head? OMG, what a shock that would be based on your track record. Useless information meets zero common sense.

 

You're comparing an NBA shoving match to a murder. I'm filing you under the category of "criminally retarded".

 

Wow...just wow (like the kids say).

[kapkomet]

I'm a huge Pacers fan.

 

And Artest should never see the hardwood EVER again. PERIOD. What he did was beyond reproach. The Pacer organization can :fyou off for this one - I think it's a terrible example of the way to conduct yourself as a professional athlete.

 

Jermaine O'Neal is in hot ass water too, because he scuffed up an off duty police officer from what I understand.

 

I worked at the American Airline Center here in Dallas for a while. Security at the Palace myst be an absolute joke, because there's no way that would have happened at the AAC - they train for that kind of circumstance.

 

Probably rehashing what has already been said as I didn't read the entire thread, but there's my two cents worth - being a Pacer fan and all, I'm sickened by this whole thing.

[hammerhead johnson]

Dybber, this goes back to the arguement that players are held to a higher standard, which is not fair or legal(IMO). Whether you hit a fan or a player, you are using violence on another person. It shouldn't matter that the person was a fan or player, and that is the point that most people don't understand.

What's it like to be a complete dumbass of a lawyer? I'll bet that your folks are proud.

 

You've never engaged in a shoving match with someone who fouled the s*** out of you, apparently.

 

It happens all the time...don't you get it? Whether it's in grade school, high school, college, the NBA, the freaking developmental league, etc. Nobody is above it.

 

Stay away from these here threads. I can spit and hit someone who knows more about basketball than you do.

[hammerhead johnson]

Any minute now, we're gonna to have to read an unnecessarily long, uninformed post by a complete dumbass of a lawyer who doesn't even watch or know anything about basketball.

 

It's gonna be pure comedy.

[whitesox61382]

Oh my god 

 

Did you miss the part where I said that shoving matches are common in the NBA?  Seriously, do you even bother watching?

 

If you call Wallace a thug, you have to call anyone who gets into a shoving match (Bird, Jordan, Shaq, etc) a thug...did this concept fly right the f*** over your head?  OMG, what a shock that would be based on your track record.  Useless information meets zero common sense.

 

You're comparing an NBA shoving match to a murder.  I'm filing you under the category of "criminally retarded".

 

Wow...just wow (like the kids say).

Wow, exactly the response that I would expect from someone like you. You fail to address any of the logical points that I bring up, and instead turn to personal attacks(classy junior and a classic sign that you are wrong).

 

Once again you justify Wallace's actions because it has happened before. Say that outloud, because I don't think you understand what you are saying. It is a classic case of a friend jumping off a bridge, does that mean you should do the same? Get a clue if you want to have a true arguement. Furthermore, what Wallace did was more then just shoving. He took two hands towards Artest's throat(wasn't Spreewell suspended for similar actions)? This is a classic case of unfair justice because of the people involved and the so-called "victims".

 

Of course you missed the entire analogy(I guess you have to have some common sense in order to comprehend). The point of the analogy wasn't murder, the point was to show a similar situation of circumstances. If you want to be considered a logical poster, than answer the questions that I presented, else get your ass back to grade school. Here is a repeat of the important questions that I presented that you side stepped.

 

1) How can you justify a persons actions because they have happened before(with other people)? Does that make it right or ok?

 

2) How can you justify giving O'Neal almost 5x the punishment that Wallace got. O'Neal's past record is as clean as Wallace(if you follow the NBA according to you). The 2 differences is that Wallace instigated his fight, while O'Neal was defending himself. The other difference is that Wallace attacked a player and O'Neal a fan. That only does not justify the punishment that O'Neal received in comparison to Wallace.

 

3) You have no clue what type of person Wallace is. Are you stupid enough to believe that just because you watch the NBA that it gives you an accurate opinion of what kind of person a player is?

 

4) If Wallace doesn't overreact, than this whole situation never occurs.

 

5) Wallace classlessly denies that he is response for anything. Talking about what kind of person he is, that is about as classless as it gets. A good person takes responsibility for their actions, but I guess you will just ignore that since you have head so far up his ass that you can't see what type of person he truely is.

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

The thing I found frightening is that Artest has 4 kids.  I can only imagine what they were thinking or what they learned by watching that happen.

Just another 4 kids that have a s***bag for a father. Only difference is that this s***bag has money.

 

Along those lines, wasn't it Artest who rejected a 9 million dollar contract saying he had "kids to feed"? I could be wrong.

[Chisoxfn]

Guys end the personal attacks. Anymore posts containing them will be removed. If you can't make a post without attacking the person, then don't make the post.

[whitesox61382]

What's it like to be a complete dumbass of a lawyer?  I'll bet that your folks are proud.

 

You've never engaged in a shoving match with someone who fouled the s*** out of you, apparently.

 

It happens all the time...don't you get it?  Whether it's in grade school, high school, college, the NBA, the freaking developmental league, etc.  Nobody is above it. 

 

Stay away from these here threads.  I can spit and hit someone who knows more about basketball than you do.

Furthermore, what Wallace did was more than shoving, so please quit this, all he did was shove someone BS. He took multiple swings at Artest and rapped his hands around Artest neck. That is not shoving junior. I can s*** and hit someone with a higher IQ then 50(like yourself). You can't handle the heat, than get the f*** out of the kitchen(or I could personally show you what Wallace did if you would prefer that).

 

*Beginning Portion of this post was edited by Chisoxfn. 61382, I know you were posting when I made my post, so I did remove the beginning which was a semi personal move, but just wanted to give you the heads up. I left the rest up because it dealt with the issue*

[NUKE_CLEVELAND]

WOAH SNAP!!!! Its the Palace of Auburn Hills.............in a soxtalk thread.

 

[whitesox61382]

Any minute now, we're gonna to have to read an unnecessarily long, uninformed post by a complete dumbass of a lawyer who doesn't even watch or know anything about basketball. 

 

It's gonna be pure comedy.

This post has been removed. If you two want to fight, do it somewhere else. If you can't post civily about this conversation and put what the arguments the two of you had behind each other (at least the personal ones) then refrain from responding to each others posts.

Edited November 22, 2004 by Chisoxfn

[Steff]

Along those lines,  wasn't it Artest who rejected a 9 million dollar contract saying he had  "kids to feed"?  I could be wrong.

Are you kidding me???

 

 

Ugh.. makes me want to :puke

[Rowand44]

Just another 4 kids that have a s***bag for a father.  Only difference is that this s***bag has money.

 

Along those lines,  wasn't it Artest who rejected a 9 million dollar contract saying he had  "kids to feed"?  I could be wrong.

Nuke, I believe you're thinking of Sprewell who rejected a 10 million dollar a year contract because he said he needs to feed his family.